My mum's trip by ordinary service bus from Birmingham to Norwich staying overnight at Spalding early 1960s

[gc4946]

I'm not sure if this is the most suitable forum to post this query.
As a newly qualified teacher living in Birmingham from 1961, mum travelled on local buses from Birmingham to her parents' home in Norwich, via Coventry, and staying overnight with relatives at Spalding.
She travelled by bus to save money for her journey home.
I don't have a lot of details except she definitely said she travelled via Coventry, but mum doesn't remember which way from there she travelled to Spalding. She has no recollection of going either via Leicester or Peterborough.
I'm aware that Midland Red at the time ran a direct service from Birmingham to Coventry (route 159?) and know Lincolnshire Road Car's buses ran between Spalding and King's Lynn, and Eastern Counties from King's Lynn to Norwich.
Mum could have asked Midland Red's office in Birmingham to plan her route back to her parents' home because they had copies of the relevant timetables available.
I'd be grateful for any information available to reconstruct mum's epic journey home.

 

[geoffk]

I'm wondering if making a journey like this on multiple buses, each with a separate fare, would actually have been cheaper than buying a train ticket. Did Midland Red have a day ticket? Can't help with the route though and the OP's mum was evidently not a bus enthusiast!

 

[gc4946]

She certainly wasn't a bus enthusiast, this trip was a means of getting home on a limited budget because she had only then started teaching and didn't come from an affluent background.
I don't know how much BR charged for a single or return fare in 1961 from Birmingham to Norwich.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Bit of a challenge to not go via Leicester or Peterborough. Possibly Midland Red Birmingham - Northampton (via Coventry, Rugby), United Counties Northampton - Stamford (via Kettering) and Eastern Counties Stamford - Spalding?

 

[RT4038]

Bit of a challenge to not go via Leicester or Peterborough. Possibly Midland Red Birmingham - Northampton (via Coventry, Rugby), United Counties Northampton - Stamford (via Kettering) and Eastern Counties Stamford - Spalding?

Most likely (taking the fewest buses, via Coventry and not via Leicester or Peterborough) would be:
Midland Red X96 Birmingham-Northampton Mayorhold (via Coventry and Rugby) [dep 9h35am arr 12h13]
United Counties 256 Northampton Derngate - Corby [dep 12h30 arr 13h54 or 13h30/14h54]
United Counties 274 Corby-Stamford [dep 15h00-15h53]
Eastern Counties 327 Stamford-Spalding [dep 16h15 arr 17h25]

The journey from Spalding to Norwich could only (practicably) have been by the Lincs. Road Car Service 65 Spalding-King's Lynn and the Eastern Counties no. 34 thence to Norwich.

 

[gc4946]

Most likely (taking the fewest buses, via Coventry and not via Leicester or Peterborough) would be:
Midland Red X96 Birmingham-Northampton Mayorhold (via Coventry and Rugby) [dep 9h35am arr 12h13]
United Counties 256 Northampton Derngate - Corby [dep 12h30 arr 13h54 or 13h30/14h54]
United Counties 274 Corby-Stamford [dep 15h00-15h53]
Eastern Counties 327 Stamford-Spalding [dep 16h15 arr 17h25]

The journey from Spalding to Norwich could only (practicably) have been by the Lincs. Road Car Service 65 Spalding-King's Lynn and the Eastern Counties no. 34 thence to Norwich.

Thanks for the information I'm speaking to mum tonight and will ask her if she remembers travelling via Northampton, Corby and Stamford.
Even if she cannot remember the full details I think the above itinerary is the most likely.
A few days I conducted a paper exercise travelling between Birmingham-Norwich nowadays.
By travelling on National Express West Midlands X1 Birmingham-Coventry, National Express Coventry 85 Coventry-Rugby, Stagecoach 96 Rugby-Northampton, Stagecoach X4 Northampton-Peterborough and First Eastern Counties Excel Peterborough-Norwich, the journey can be done in a day.

 

[RT4038]

Thanks for the information I'm speaking to mum tonight and will ask her if she remembers travelling via Northampton, Corby and Stamford.
Even if she cannot remember the full details I think the above itinerary is the most likely.
A few days I conducted a paper exercise travelling between Birmingham-Norwich nowadays.
By travelling on National Express West Midlands X1 Birmingham-Coventry, National Express Coventry 85 Coventry-Rugby, Stagecoach 96 Rugby-Northampton, Stagecoach X4 Northampton-Peterborough and First Eastern Counties Excel Peterborough-Norwich, the journey can be done in a day.

It could have been done in a day then too (I think this was the fastest - it was also possible to go Coventry-Market Harborough-Kettering to pick up the 256, or an alternative to Peterborough changing additionally at Thrapston, but this meant an earlier start [08h00 on a 159] for the same finish!)....
Midland Red X96 09h35 Birmingham-Northampton Mayorhold arr 12h13
United Counties 256 12h30 Northampton Derngate-Corby arr 13h54
United Counties 265 14h00 Corby-Oundle arr 14h35, which provided a connection to
Eastern Counties 312 14h35 Oundle-Peterborough arr 15h16
Eastern Counties 336 16h10 Peterborough-King's Lynn arr 18h05
Eastern Counties 34 18h25 King's Lynn-Norwich arr 20h37

Interestingly, following exactly the same general route, it is about 45 minutes slower today for the same arrival, but faster journeys are available starting earlier as shown below!
National Express X1 08h45 Birmingham-Coventry Pool Meadow arr 09h59
Stagecoach 86 10h10 Coventry Trinity St-Rugby arr 11h00
Stagecoach 96 11h12 Rugby-Northampton arr 12h38
Stagecoach X4 13h33 Northampton-Peterborough arr 16h31
First X1 17h10 Peterborough-Norwich arr 20h37

there are 6 possible departure times now (dep 05h00, arr 15h37/dep 05h55, arr 16h37/dep 06h45, arr 17h37/dep 07h40, arr 19h30/ dep 08h45, arr 20h37/dep 10h45, arr 22h42) whereas in 1961 it was the itinerary above or nothing* . (These are M-F times quoted)

* On Saturdays you could also depart Birmingham at 12h00 on a 159, changing at Coventry onto an X62 at 13h00 to Market Harborough, then a UC259 to Kettering at 14h45, to a UC 266 to Peterborough at 16h20, thence at 336 to King's Lynn at 18h10 for the Sat only late 34 to Norwich at 20h35, arriving at 22h42. Only 5 minutes slower than the current fastest departure at 05h00!!!

 

[gc4946]

Spoke to mum, she can't remember anything more about how she travelled between Coventry and Spalding so will say for now (unless proved otherwise) that she changed buses at Northampton, Corby and Stamford.
Mum arrived in Norwich late afternoon on the second day from Spalding. She took into account (and remembered) no buses serving Costessey (district west of Norwich, where her parents then lived) from Norwich city centre after 9 pm.
She was surprised when I told her that it was possible to do the Birmingham-Norwich trip in one day at the time!
Mum obtained leaflets and timetable booklets from bus stations in advance and asked people en route.

How much would she have paid in bus fares assuming she undertook the journey as described?
Midland Red X96 Birmingham-Northampton Mayorhold (via Coventry and Rugby) [dep 9h35am arr 12h13]
United Counties 256 Northampton Derngate - Corby [dep 12h30 arr 13h54 or 13h30/14h54]
United Counties 274 Corby-Stamford [dep 15h00-15h53]
Eastern Counties 327 Stamford-Spalding [dep 16h15 arr 17h25]
Lincs. Road Car Service 65 Spalding-King's Lynn
Eastern Counties no. 34 thence to Norwich.

 

[RT4038]

Spoke to mum, she can't remember anything more about how she travelled between Coventry and Spalding so will say for now (unless proved otherwise) that she changed buses at Northampton, Corby and Stamford.
Mum arrived in Norwich late afternoon on the second day from Spalding. She took into account (and remembered) no buses serving Costessey (district west of Norwich, where her parents then lived) from Norwich city centre after 9 pm.
She was surprised when I told her that it was possible to do the Birmingham-Norwich trip in one day at the time!
Mum obtained leaflets and timetable booklets from bus stations in advance and asked people en route.

How much would she have paid in bus fares assuming she undertook the journey as described?
Midland Red X96 Birmingham-Northampton Mayorhold (via Coventry and Rugby) [dep 9h35am arr 12h13]
United Counties 256 Northampton Derngate - Corby [dep 12h30 arr 13h54 or 13h30/14h54]
United Counties 274 Corby-Stamford [dep 15h00-15h53]
Eastern Counties 327 Stamford-Spalding [dep 16h15 arr 17h25]
Lincs. Road Car Service 65 Spalding-King's Lynn
Eastern Counties no. 34 thence to Norwich.

Sadly I have no idea! In March 1974 Northampton-Corby was 31p single and Corby-Stamford 23p. I don't have any faretables from before this period.

I think it has to be realised that at that time information at Enquiry Offices was only as good as the clerk had knowledge and the time to look up the information. They may well have had copies of the timetable books, but not necessarily the familiarity with their contents or of the geography outside the surrounding area (nor will the intending travellers I expect!) The main bus routes did not always follow the line of rail (esp. the main railway lines) as these would have not been so profitable as the longer distance passengers would often have gone by train. The normal line of route by train in those days (Birmingham-Rugby-Market Harborough-Peterborough-March-Ely-Norwich) had very little longer distance competing bus service outside the more urban and suburban areas between Birmingham and Rugby, so a longer distance rail traveller enquiring about bus routes may not be much help to the clerk! (no denigration of either party - just a different world then).
Faretables for other companies would certainly not have been available, so your Mum would have been going on a hunch that the bus would be cheaper for that distance, which it may or may not have been!!!

The buses to Costessey only ran every hour hour in the evening, but the last one was 22h30

 

[gc4946]

Without access to faretables I'm assuming she paid between 25 to 30 shillings (decimal equivalent £1.25-£1.50) for her trip then,
Thanks for all contributions!

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Sadly I have no idea! In March 1974 Northampton-Corby was 31p single and Corby-Stamford 23p. I don't have any faretables from before this period.

I think it has to be realised that at that time information at Enquiry Offices was only as good as the clerk had knowledge and the time to look up the information. They may well have had copies of the timetable books, but not necessarily the familiarity with their contents or of the geography outside the surrounding area (nor will the intending travellers I expect!) The main bus routes did not always follow the line of rail (esp. the main railway lines) as these would have not been so profitable as the longer distance passengers would often have gone by train. The normal line of route by train in those days (Birmingham-Rugby-Market Harborough-Peterborough-March-Ely-Norwich) had very little longer distance competing bus service outside the more urban and suburban areas between Birmingham and Rugby, so a longer distance rail traveller enquiring about bus routes may not be much help to the clerk! (no denigration of either party - just a different world then).
Faretables for other companies would certainly not have been available, so your Mum would have been going on a hunch that the bus would be cheaper for that distance, which it may or may not have been!!!

Back in those days, a good local library might well have had copies of bus timetables from many other parts of the country. So anyone with some knowledge of geography could have planned the route themselves. I certainly remember planning a few cross-country bus trips in the early 1980s, using the quite comprehensive selection of timetables in my college library.

 

[SteveM70]

Did Midland Red have a day ticket?

Absolutely. It was still a thing when I was a kid down there in the 70s and early 80s

 

[Ken H]

Back in those days, a good local library might well have had copies of bus timetables from many other parts of the country. So anyone with some knowledge of geography could have planned the route themselves. I certainly remember planning a few cross-country bus trips in the early 1980s, using the quite comprehensive selection of timetables in my college library.

There is timetableworld.com. There are lots of old timetables and maps to view for free.

 

[gc4946]

Back in those days, a good local library might well have had copies of bus timetables from many other parts of the country. So anyone with some knowledge of geography could have planned the route themselves. I certainly remember planning a few cross-country bus trips in the early 1980s, using the quite comprehensive selection of timetables in my college library.

Mum lived in Birmingham at the time so the city's central reference library would have copies available to consult

 

[RT4038]

Without access to faretables I'm assuming she paid between 25 to 30 shillings (decimal equivalent £1.25-£1.50) for her trip then,
Thanks for all contributions!

Looking at some train fares for a few years earlier, I should imagine Birmingham-Norwich single by train would have been about 33/- or so

Back in those days, a good local library might well have had copies of bus timetables from many other parts of the country. So anyone with some knowledge of geography could have planned the route themselves. I certainly remember planning a few cross-country bus trips in the early 1980s, using the quite comprehensive selection of timetables in my college library.

Yes, but not many would have done that!

 

[padbus]

Until 1969 there was the ABC Coach & Bus Guide published by Index Publishers of Dunstable. It was available to view in my local suburban branch library in Oxford so may well have been available in other libararies as well. It was published twice a year and I did subscribe to it and have retained my copy of the last one which was summer 1969. It runs to a little over 500 pages and contains timetables for all coach services in Great Britain. These range from the quite complex (eg Associated Motorways Nottingham/Birmingham - Oxford - Southampton - Portsmouth/Bournemouth) to local holiday routes (eg PMT/North Western joint service from Harriseahead to Llandudno).

Some long distance bus services also merit full(ish) timetables. Other prinicipal bus services are shown in summary form which would at least show that a service existed even if you had check to details before travelling.

The guide is arranged alphabetically by operator with consortiums such as Associated Motorways appearing as operators. There is also a complete Index of Places to help find the the timetables for each place. The effort put into compiling it all must have been considerable, as computers were not readily available then.