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New edition of the National Rail Conditions of Travel effective 2 April 2024

185

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Assuming it is still produced by RDG (ie ATOC) surely it is a grave mistake allowing Rail Delivery Group, to write their own rules to suit themselves, surely the government's ORR should be doing this. RDG - Montgomery (FirstGroup) leads a group of FirstGroup, GoAhead, Arriva and other industry partners.

Reminds me of the investigation into the US's FAA, which was basically Boeing & 3 other manufacturers writing their own rules... same with DuPont's Teflon.
 
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Starmill

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If you abandon due to disruption (rather than because of your own fault) you can return back free of charge. Presumably when refunding on these grounds if your home station is gated they'd be looking out for a scan on the "wrong" ticket?

The difficulty is in where people have effectively changed their destination, but that's something that is mostly only of concern to enthusiasts - "normal" people don't decide to have a couple of days in Preston instead if they've failed to make it to Edinburgh. However 29.2 seems to handle that.
It would be fair and reasonable for Advance tickets abandoned part-way through the journey due to disruption to just use the kilometric proportion, calculated manually in each case.

But that would be too generous to the customer for them I imagine. It may also be a bit unfair to add this administrative responsibility to an independent retailer, though it can't add up to very many claims...

If you allowed this for Advance tickets and not for Flexible tickets you'd bizarrely give better refund rights in some cases too.
 

Bletchleyite

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That suggests that it is fine to contract to provide a service and only provide 25% of it, and still charge for the 25%!

If the passenger accepts the 25% at the price of the 25% then I think that is perfectly reasonable, yes. Let's bring in a supermarket analogy as we like these. You've bought a pack of 4 products but they're faulty so return them, but the shop doesn't have a pack of 4 in stock but does have one single pack left, so you can choose to either return them all and have a full refund, or you could choose a single pack and be refunded the difference.

The option remains to decline it and go home.

I suspect the reason for this change is fraudulent abuse - "but I abandoned my journey from Wick to Bletchley at Milton Keynes Central because the last bit was cancelled" - that would really be nonsense, what should happen is the railway providing a taxi* for the last bit or refunding my payment for one.

It is to me quite clear what abandonment is - giving up entirely.

* My preference would actually be an e-scooter or hire e-bike! Wonder if they get many claims for those?
 

Mike395

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If the passenger accepts the 25% at the price of the 25% then I think that is perfectly reasonable, yes. Let's bring in a supermarket analogy as we like these. You've bought a pack of 4 products but they're faulty so return them, but the shop doesn't have a pack of 4 in stock but does have one single pack left, so you can choose to either return them all and have a full refund, or you could choose a single pack and be refunded the difference.

The option remains to decline it and go home.

I suspect the reason for this change is fraudulent abuse - "but I abandoned my journey from Wick to Bletchley at Milton Keynes Central because the last bit was cancelled" - that would really be nonsense, what should happen is the railway providing a taxi for the last bit or refunding my payment for one.
Extremely strong disagree. If the railway has a contract to get me from Aberdeen to London, they fail at Edinburgh (after being on time to that point) due to e.g. WCML closed and ECML blocked, and I decide to fly at additional expense, why should I be expected to pay for the Aberdeen to Edinburgh leg, when I didn't want to go to Edinburgh in the first place?

Also, what happens if the disruption is far enough into the journey that it's simply not practical to get back to point of origin?
 

Bletchleyite

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Extremely strong disagree. If the railway has a contract to get me from Aberdeen to London, they fail at Edinburgh (after being on time to that point) due to e.g. WCML closed and ECML blocked, and I decide to fly at additional expense, why should I be expected to pay for the Aberdeen to Edinburgh leg, when I didn't want to go to Edinburgh in the first place?

That is heading into a slightly different discussion of how alternatives should be provided, really. What I'd want is for the railway to pay for the flight. No chance they would of course, but then we head into a different discussion on whether a defined-benefit insurance policy should be included in train tickets which is definitely not one for this thread (and I think is one I've done a speculative thread on before so I'll leave it there).

Edit: new speculative thread on what's reasonable in the Forum's view: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/abandonment-refunds-when-should-they-be-given.263781/
 
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ainsworth74

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It strikes me that everything was rather more straightforward when the 'timetable' of what services 'ought' to be running, was something you could pick up in a printed format, or peruse on a poster at the station.

Getting rid of printed timetables and trying to make everyone rely on journey planners makes this sort of thing much easier to get away with. Perhaps it is entirely coincidental that all this indeterminate nonsense we now have over what 'should' be running has arrived almost immediately after the demise of (most) printed timetables, but I suspect it isn't a coincidence at all. Else eg. why not say that the timetable to compare against on 'normal' days is that published in the eNRT, or that published on the relevant TOC's website, as opposed to this 'whatever they feel like running' rubbish?
Eh? They still produce pdf timetables they just don't pointlessly print them out. The idea that having a printed out pdf timetable would prevent them making changes like this is bonkers I'm afraid to say.

I do think that this whole thing is barmy, to be clear, the timetable is published twice a year in May (usually) and December. Other than for planned engineering work or emergency timetables notified in advance (such as for strike action or if there's been a landslip) that is the timetable that any compensation should be payable against. However the suggestion that the loss of printed timetables could have made a difference is bonkers.
 

MikeWM

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Eh? They still produce pdf timetables they just don't pointlessly print them out. The idea that having a printed out pdf timetable would prevent them making changes like this is bonkers I'm afraid to say.

I didn't say it would *prevent* them, I said it would be harder for them to get away with trying to do it.

Perhaps it is a total coincidence, but I find it a rather *interesting* coincidence that when the railway was very clear in printed material what it intended to run, and you could easily point at 'official' material in your pocket or displayed on the platform explicitly pointing that out, we didn't have any of this nonsense. Now it has become far more difficult and obscure to find what 'should' be running, all of a sudden we have this 'we'll run whatever we feel like, deal with it' approach.
 

ainsworth74

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I didn't say it would *prevent* them, I said it would be harder for them to get away with trying to do it.

Perhaps it is a total coincidence, but I find it a rather *interesting* coincidence that when the railway was very clear in printed material what it intended to run, and you could easily point at 'official' material in your pocket or displayed on the platform explicitly pointing that out, we didn't have any of this nonsense. Now it has become far more difficult and obscure to find what 'should' be running, all of a sudden we have this 'we'll run whatever we feel like, deal with it' approach.
Here are all of Northerns timetables from their own website:

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/timetables

In what way would them be being printed change anything?
 

HSTEd

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So, de-facto delay repay is abolished?

Since the railway can always use its computer system to rewrite the timetable to match what is actually run.
On-time performance suddenly shoots up to 100%.
 

Bletchleyite

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So, de-facto delay repay is abolished?

Since the railway can always use its computer system to rewrite the timetable to match what is actually run.
On-time performance suddenly shoots up to 100%.

I don't consider the railway anywhere near competent enough to do that.

A delay is a delay, they aren't going to go round changing the timetable on the fly.

However a P-coded cancellation = no DR, a normal one = DR. Question is how those two options will be used for cancellations specifically.
 

HSTEd

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I don't consider the railway anywhere near competent enough to do that.

A delay is a delay, they aren't going to go round changing the timetable on the fly.
Well, all they have to do is couple the actual data from the data feed used for real-time trains et al and present it as the passenger timetable.
Even the railway should be able to manage that.
 

Starmill

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That is heading into a slightly different discussion of how alternatives should be provided, really. What I'd want is for the railway to pay for the flight. No chance they would of course, but then we head into a different discussion on whether a defined-benefit insurance policy should be included in train tickets which is definitely not one for this thread (and I think is one I've done a speculative thread on before so I'll leave it there).

Edit: new speculative thread on what's reasonable in the Forum's view: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/abandonment-refunds-when-should-they-be-given.263781/
I agree with you about it being desirable but the industry position is nearly always that you wait, for however long it takes, for a train to be provided. It's unusual for them to authorise you to book your own reasonable, comparable alternative, on their dime (except for SWR!). I think we just have to proceed on that basis.

So in essence this doesn't really change anything other than stop people asking for the "Published Timetable of the Day" when no such thing has ever existed.
Trains can easily still be hidden from the screen and journey planner without p-coding them. No doubt some customer relations departments will use that as a convenient excuse!
 
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185

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Trains can easily still be hidden from the screen and journey planner without p-coding them. No doubt some customer relations departments will use that as a convenient excuse!

A good example of Northern fiddling the rules & contradicting themselves:

Tuesday.
Northern.
"The final 00:30 train is not running as after 2359 is a strike day, you should check next time. There will be no replacement bus."

Wednesday.
Also Northern.
"The final 00:30 train is not running as it is in the previous day's timetable which was a strike, you should check next time. There will be no replacement bus."

The Tuesday example happened as they needed the train stabled at an outstation due to the depot being full & traincrew were taxied back. Both of those above trains were on the journey planners just 5-6 hours beforehand, then quickly removed, Northern claiming they were never there, you imagined it.
 

Starmill

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A good example of Northern fiddling the rules & contradicting themselves:

Tuesday.
Northern.
"The final 00:30 train is not running as after 2359 is a strike day, you should check next time. There will be no replacement bus."

Wednesday.
Also Northern.
"The final 00:30 train is not running as it is in the previous day's timetable which was a strike, you should check next time. There will be no replacement bus."

The Tuesday example happened as they needed the train stabled at an outstation due to the depot being full & traincrew were taxied back. Both of those above trains were on the journey planners just 5-6 hours beforehand, then quickly removed, Northern claiming they were never there, you imagined it.
Yes. It's straightforward cakeism. Though the Wednesday one in these cases usually is p-coded, and the other not.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Here are all of Northerns timetables from their own website:

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/travel/timetables

In what way would them be being printed change anything?

A printed document feels significantly more 'official' to me than a PDF on a website, much more of a commitment. Possibly/probably many/most people don't feel that way nowadays, but I still do.
An online pdf can be revised and republished far more easily than one which has a printed version to 'evidence' against.
I'm with both of you though in different ways. There were always errors in the big printed timetable, hence the supplement, plus late changes. Then there were planned engineering works which (still) result in multiple date versions or lots of wiggly lines, making the whole thing unwieldy at times. I would favour more frequent change dates (not necessarily the NR offer and accept process) but that those dates were fixed and it was 'publish and be damned', or at least publish and be bound to provide the advertised service. So you could have winter, spring, early summer, peak summer holiday and autumn timetables.

The bus industry likes to constantly mess with schedules, and have T & C's which are entirely one sided in their favour and offer no protection to the passenger (hello First Bus). I fear the bus bandits have been let loose in the railway madhouse.
 

AdamWW

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An online pdf can be revised and republished far more easily than one which has a printed version to 'evidence' against.

I think the biggest difference is that the way of getting a timetable used to be to get hold of a printed one, so any later changes had to be well publicised because lots of people would be using copies of the original timetable, and presumably this would also be an incentive not to keep changing things.

Now, since most people just use journey planners, or maybe look at a pdf on the web, it's easy to make changes and much harder to compare to an earlier version to see what's changed.

In the previous timetable there were some services that TfW must have always removed from the timetable. I had no idea that they were even supposed to be there until they announced that they were being dropped in the timetable update.

On the day changes can’t be P-coded.

Does that mean that it is only possible to show trains as cancelled on the day, and not remove them from the timetable completely?

I'm almost certain that many times I've seen services completely removed from realtimetrains part way through a day. Have I misremembered, or is there a way of removing them that's not the same as p-coding? Certainly they can be added at very short notice, and I'm sure I've seen services where the destination has been changed so that they only covered part of the route.
 

robbeech

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I think the biggest difference is that the way of getting a timetable used to be to get hold of a printed one, so any later changes had to be well publicised because lots of people would be using copies of the original timetable, and presumably this would also be an incentive not to keep changing things.

Now, since most people just use journey planners, or maybe look at a pdf on the web, it's easy to make changes and much harder to compare to an earlier version to see what's changed.

In the previous timetable there were some services that TfW must have always removed from the timetable. I had no idea that they were even supposed to be there until they announced that they were being dropped in the timetable update.



Does that mean that it is only possible to show trains as cancelled on the day, and not remove them from the timetable completely?

I'm almost certain that many times I've seen services completely removed from realtimetrains part way through a day. Have I misremembered, or is there a way of removing them that's not the same as p-coding? Certainly they can be added at very short notice, and I'm sure I've seen services where the destination has been changed so that they only covered part of the route.
Services definitely disappear from RTT halfway through the day. I’m not sure if it’s the way it handles or displays data, or if it’s a different method of an operator cancelling a service. It’s interesting to see how different operators handle trains removed from the timetable, it’s also interesting to see how operators handle OTHER operator’s trains removed from the timetable.

When LNER cancel a train the day before it disappears from the timetable but at their stations they’ll still show it on the board as cancelled. This is helpful to passengers as they can see their train, see it’s cancelled and then take appropriate action. Sadly this doesn’t always work elsewhere. A member of (for example) Northern staff can’t see the LNER train as it’s no longer in the timetable so suggests it doesn’t exist and often cannot provide a solution. This is much less helpful.

What I find a little annoying is when it’s absolutely clear that a train did exist but has been removed for whatever reason and staff refuse outright to do anything other than turn passengers away, claiming the train doesn’t exist and never has done, despite there being a 1030 to a particular destination 6 days a week since the 70s.
 

Kilopylae

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It strikes me that everything was rather more straightforward when the 'timetable' of what services 'ought' to be running, was something you could pick up in a printed format, or peruse on a poster at the station.

Getting rid of printed timetables and trying to make everyone rely on journey planners makes this sort of thing much easier to get away with.

My perception is that almost no-one uses anything other than:

a) a journey planner (in most cases we can be even more specific: Trainline or Google Maps)
b) local knowledge of a particular train they often catch

I'd assume most people who aren't enthusiasts or travel planners would only resort to a PDF timetable in a post-hoc dispute with the railway company.

From the perspective of that dispute, or a travel planner, it's probably true that...

Eh? They still produce pdf timetables they just don't pointlessly print them out. The idea that having a printed out pdf timetable would prevent them making changes like this is bonkers I'm afraid to say. ... However the suggestion that the loss of printed timetables could have made a difference is bonkers.

...in that a PDF is clearly just as stolid, dependable, and apparently "official" as a record of the ordinary timetable. However, I think MikeWM and AdamWW are basically right about this cultural shift:

I think the biggest difference is that the way of getting a timetable used to be to get hold of a printed one, so any later changes had to be well publicised because lots of people would be using copies of the original timetable, and presumably this would also be an incentive not to keep changing things.

Now, since most people just use journey planners, or maybe look at a pdf on the web, it's easy to make changes and much harder to compare to an earlier version to see what's changed.

This makes it much easier for the TOC to get rid of people by instructing its customer services representatives to stonewall them. If the Twitter representative or the person replying to your e-mails is adamant that

"Hi Mark, no train was scheduled to run at 23:04 today due to staff shortages. It's important to check before you travel. As Delay Repay is based on the published timetable, I'm afraid no refund is due ^AH"

or whatever, then the (otherwise-beneficial and inevitable regardless) shift from using paper timetables to Trainline does make it more likely this will work. Some won't know they've been shafted. Some who remember what the planner said the night before or who "always get the 17:04" won't think to look for a PDF when making their claim. People who aren't up for a fight or for jumping through hoops don't push it further and the company saves £££. I'm not convinced it would have been so easy to fob people off when most people were looking at the same printed timetable!
 

sheff1

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If only people realised that it doesn't consider permitted routes, minimum connection times and many other things at all!
But it quite often suggests routes I hadn't thought of which I can then investigate further. :)
 

DDB

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Does this mean they are going to try not paying delay repay to season ticket holders for strike days?
 

Watershed

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Does this mean they are going to try not paying delay repay to season ticket holders for strike days?
The industry's position is already that Delay Repay (i.e. compensation for delays) isn't payable if timetables are altered by 10pm the night before. So if all trains have been cancelled on a strike day, they consider that no compensation is payable if you're delayed until the next day!

But I think it's unlikely that the industry would change its position of allowing season ticket holders to use Delay Repay as a mechanism for claiming a partial refund for the lack of service on a strike day. I think that's rather messy as in all other contexts, Delay Repay is only supposed to be used to claim for delays actually experienced, on journeys actually made. But it's a simpler mechanism than having countless Customer Service requests, so I can see why it suits the industry.
 
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Quick question about the reduction in refund fee, does this apply from tomorrow on  all tickets or just ones brought after the 2nd?
 

MrJeeves

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Quick question about the reduction in refund fee, does this apply from tomorrow on  all tickets or just ones brought after the 2nd?
I believe the rules would only need to apply for tickets bought from today (ORR announced £5 fee cap from today with NRCoT tomorrow) but it's up to retailers whether they'd follow the same fee cap for old purchases.

TrainSplit opted to apply the updated fees to refunds for tickets bought in the past or after this change (which we implemented from last week).


Update: the new cap will be implemented from 1 April, and will feature in the updated National Rail Conditions of Travel, which will be published on 2 April

I believe the rules would only need to apply for tickets bought from today (ORR announced £5 fee cap from today with NRCoT tomorrow) but it's up to retailers whether they'd follow the same fee cap for old purchases.
On reflection, the way the press release and such is worded implies it's for all tickets, no matter when they were purchased.

  1. The new £5 cap applies from 1 April (and explained in the updated NRCOT published on 2 April) to unused tickets where the terms and conditions of purchase allow the customer to request a refund. Advance Purchase tickets, for example, are not refundable unless the train is disrupted or cancelled. The cap on refund fees for season tickets has not changed and remains £10.
 

infobleep

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So does anyone know what prevents TOCs from P coding on the day? Do systems disallow it?

Would it error at the central database if they tried to submit a P code after 10 pm, for any services before the end of the following railway day?
 

AdamWW

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So does anyone know what prevents TOCs from P coding on the day? Do systems disallow it?

They certainly seem to be able to do something that looks like p coding on the day, i.e. the service is just removed from journey planners rather than showing as cancelled.
So I don't know how one could tell if it had been p coded or otherwise, and of course the NRCoT doesn't use that term anyway.
 

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