New Signals

[David Dunning]

I am curious to know under what circumstances these new searchlight colourlight signals are installed in various locations . I noticed that Barnham has been resignalled again (although it may have been a while ago , dont do Soton to Brighton very often ) Yet further down the coastway line between Fareham and St Denys the colourlights i watched being installed as a school kid 30 years back are still there .
They have been installed at Thirsk too . If its all about equipment getting old , like i say how come those 30 year old ones at Swanwick and Hamble are still there .
Thanks in advance for your help . I do learn so much from this site .

 

[Metroland]

Combo of replacing old kit, and I would suggest there are a lot of savings to be had from the new signals which don't need so much maintenance. The S&T tend to go around checking if traditional signals are on standby (IE first filament failure as muliti-unit signals have 2 filaments).

There is need for cleaning the inside of the multi-unit signals and bulb changing. With long life LEDS much of this is not needed. The newer LED signals are also brighter and don't suffer (as far as I know) from phantom aspects. That's when the sun hits the lens at a certain angle and makes a signal look like it's lit.

 

[John Webb]

A number of the 1979 4-aspect signals on the Midland Main Line between St Pancras and Bedford have been replaced by LED signals as a result of track alterations, such as the development of the Luton Airport/Parkway station and more recently the lengthening of platforms resulting in signal resiting - for example at St Albans. So I would expect that it's a matter of replacement when work is done rather than a systematic replacement of all heads.

 

[David Dunning]

i see , thanks for your help there

 

[Kneedown]

Although the replacement isn't always co-ordinated with major work. I've noticed a good few of these LED signals popping up all over the place, sometimes quite randomly. Maybe an individual signal is condemned for whatever reason and the LED version replaces it, although new semaphore signals are also still being erected, replacing like for like.

 

[Wyvern]

although new semaphore signals are also still being erected, replacing like for like.

To replace a semaphore with colour light would require cabling etc etc

 

[swt_passenger]

I am curious to know under what circumstances these new searchlight colourlight signals are installed in various locations . I noticed that Barnham has been resignalled again (although it may have been a while ago , dont do Soton to Brighton very often ) Yet further down the coastway line between Fareham and St Denys the colourlights i watched being installed as a school kid 30 years back are still there .
They have been installed at Thirsk too . If its all about equipment getting old , like i say how come those 30 year old ones at Swanwick and Hamble are still there .
Thanks in advance for your help . I do learn so much from this site .

Barnham had a full replacement of its entire signalling system including all the S&C, platform lengthening, transfer of control to a completely new signal box, additional bi-directional working etc. The work was completed last year some time.

On the other hand the Netley Line signalling still has life in it, and of course control has already been transferred to Eastleigh ASC so there's nothing major to do, although the track on the Netley line is gradually being renewed..

Incidentally, the Portsmouth resignalling appears to have been the last full installation of new conventional colour signals, surprisingly LEDs weren't used. I wonder if that marks the last major buy of non - LED signalling, and the supplier is no longer making it?

I'd be surprised if there were any major projects that didn't use LEDs from now on...

 

[455driver]

Incidentally, the Portsmouth resignalling appears to have been the last full installation of new conventional colour signals, surprisingly LEDs weren't used. I wonder if that marks the last major buy of non - LED signalling, and the supplier is no longer making it?

Portsmouth- "filament" signals and axle counters.
Basingstoke- LED signals and track circuits.

Glad they have "standardised" things, not!

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Don't be surprised if they replace more & more signal heads with LED versions as NR go on a cost cutting mission, replacing them maybe expensive, but when you consider that they're 99,99& maintenance free apart from the odd wash, you'll soon recoup any initial outlay.

 

[455driver]

Was down your way the other week and there are some LED signals at Plymouth now, Platform 6 cornish end is one.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

I know the bloody thing nearly burnt my retinas out!

 

[swt_passenger]

Portsmouth- "filament" signals and axle counters.
Basingstoke- LED signals and track circuits.

Glad they have "standardised" things, not!

I wonder if there was a major crash on the M3 back in the early years of this century, and a few lorry loads of signalling gear got a bit mixed up...

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Well it does seem that most signallers have a well known backside & elbow syndrome!
(They seemingly don't know their arse from their elbow)

I mean the other day came back to Taunton on a "fast" service and got stopped twice & got routed via Westbury station! Why? 15 minutes late back home, not a happy person.

 

[Tomnick]

Where to start? There's any number of reasons why you might be stopped out of course and diverted - apoints failure or failed train and the resulting congestion for example. Still, it's easier to pretend that your train's the only one on the network and that the delay must be entirely the Signalman's fault!

 

[33056]

With regard to LED signals, I think there is (or was) a rolling program to replace all ground position light signals with new LED ones showing two red aspects. All the ones in my area were done a few years ago at the rate of two or three a day until finished.

Much easier to see, thus reducing the chances of a SPAD, and I don't miss having to phone up every couple of days or so to report a blown bulb - so wholesale replacement must have saved them a fortune on bulb costs alone.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Where to start? There's any number of reasons why you might be stopped out of course and diverted - apoints failure or failed train and the resulting congestion for example. Still, it's easier to pretend that your train's the only one on the network and that the delay must be entirely the Signalman's fault!

Perhaps signallers should grow a backbone & not be afraid to tell a manager where to go. Signallers are paid to regulate the service, not act as some mindless automaton. If we're going to have that's the way it's booked, so that's the way it'll go attitude, let's get rid of the whole bloody lot & replace them with computers, it would be a lot cheaper with just a manager to oversee them & take the odd phone/radio call.

After all computers don't need breaks, don't need to be paid, don't need holidays & do as they're told as they're not sentient beings. Last time there was a signallers strike it actually ran very well, because the managers were doing it & there was regulation of services to!

 

[Tomnick]

Blimey, what a lack of understanding of the job! You said yourself that your train was diverted, so it was clearly not just run as booked. A computer without intervention would probably have run you booked route, even if you'd then have to sit indefinitely behind a failure (for which assistance couldn't be provided without heavy human intervention).

When the managers were running the job, wasn't the service thinned out? Other accounts of that episode certainly didn't mention the much improved regulation (with less trains!). Remember it's some of the silly policies from above that remove much of the regulating responsibility from the Signalman.

 

[TomBoyRacer]

The MAS signalling at Grimsby was installed in 1993 if I recall correctly and where replaced by LED searchlight signals. Possibly the proximity of the sea and factories might have led to corrosion.. ?

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Blimey, what a lack of understanding of the job! You said yourself that your train was diverted, so it was clearly not just run as booked. A computer without intervention would probably have run you booked route, even if you'd then have to sit indefinitely behind a failure (for which assistance couldn't be provided without heavy human intervention).

When the managers were running the job, wasn't the service thinned out? Other accounts of that episode certainly didn't mention the much improved regulation (with less trains!). Remember it's some of the silly policies from above that remove much of the regulating responsibility from the Signalman.

There were no failures.

Strangely when the driver got onto the signaller via the phone on each signal, as soon as he picked up the handset, the signal magically turned green!

Explain that! Or was it just someone having 40 winks again! Why was it routed via Westbury when nothing was wrong? Even the train manager couldn't find out the reason.

 

[Railsigns]

The MAS signalling at Grimsby was installed in 1993 if I recall correctly and where (sic) replaced by LED searchlight signals. Possibly the proximity of the sea and factories might have led to corrosion.. ?

There has been a rolling programme of changing the signal heads on the approach to London Euston to Dorman LED type, replacing filament heads that were only commissioned in 2000.

 

[the sniper]

Perhaps signallers should grow a backbone & not be afraid to tell a manager where to go. Signallers are paid to regulate the service, not act as some mindless automaton. If we're going to have that's the way it's booked, so that's the way it'll go attitude, let's get rid of the whole bloody lot & replace them with computers, it would be a lot cheaper with just a manager to oversee them & take the odd phone/radio call.

After all computers don't need breaks, don't need to be paid, don't need holidays & do as they're told as they're not sentient beings. Last time there was a signallers strike it actually ran very well, because the managers were doing it & there was regulation of services to!

There were no failures.

Wow, that must have made you even later, as you presumably inspected then entire stretch of track that you travelled on by foot following your journey, just so you could come to the conclusion that there was absolutely nothing wrong with the track.

Strangely when the driver got onto the signaller via the phone on each signal, as soon as he picked up the handset, the signal magically turned green!

Explain that! Or was it just someone having 40 winks again! Why was it routed via Westbury when nothing was wrong? Even the train manager couldn't find out the reason.

It was just done to **** you off, surely?

Please stop embarrassing yourself...

 

[Tomnick]

Indeed, the cause of disruption might not be obvious - I took the example of a failed train, but a p-way fault, points failure or track circuit failure could equally cause disruption. Or the Signalman might have been dealing with something serious elsewhere on the panel - forgetting to pull off for one in those circumstances doesn't make him incompetent! Did you see that the Driver didn't speak to the Signalman first though, for example to be cautioned? Especially in the current climate of chasing delay minutes, Signalmen aren't going to delay things without good cause...

 

[GB]

There were no failures.

Strangely when the driver got onto the signaller via the phone on each signal, as soon as he picked up the handset, the signal magically turned green!

Explain that! Or was it just someone having 40 winks again! Why was it routed via Westbury when nothing was wrong? Even the train manager couldn't find out the reason.

How do you know there were no failures or other issues if as you say, the the TM couldnt find out the reason and the signal kept clearing everytime the driver went to use the SPT?

If you think a signaller decides of his own volition to divert a service when there are no issues or has not been directed to by control you are clearly mistaken and just goes to show your lack of understanding of other peoples roles:roll:

 

[Metroland]

As a former top grade signaller, quite, but gives us all a good laugh.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

As someone who ultimately pays your wages, I think you're a waste.

I'd replace the lot of you with a computer, easy, reliable, no wages, no breaks, no holiday, works 24/7.

 

[Tomnick]

Under the current rules (which aren't going to change drastically), how does a computer deal with:

• An emergency requiring traffic to be stopped
• A failed train requiring assistance
• A track circuit failure
• Arranging protection for S&T or p-way work
• Arranging possessions
• Dealing with crossing users
• Communicating with drivers
• Communicating with Control
• etc...

The actual signalling of trains forms a small part of a Signalman's workload, especially during disruption or degraded working. That can already be carried out by a computer - ARS features in many installations. Computers can't do the rest though, and even ARS requires intervention in many circumstances where the computer can't make the best regulating decision considering a much wider picture.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Ok. 3 managers to oversee the automation. + 2 relief.

0700-1500, 1500-2200, 2200-0700 and with 99,9% on auto....

They could quite easily run the new TVSC at Didcot & displace how many? Saving ££££.

 

[Tomnick]

As I said, the signalling of trains is only a small part of the overall workload. So even if you automate that (as ARS does), you've still got the rest of the workload to deal with. So you can't reduce manning levels significantly, certainly not enough to displace the entire box and save ££££ - ARS does allows each Signalman to control a slightly larger area though. I don't know what employing managers to do the Signalman's job (i.e. supervising the ARS and dealing with the rest of the workload) will achieve, other than presumably increased wages. What's with the campaign against the signalling grade?

 

[TomBoyRacer]

Ok. 3 managers to oversee the automation. + 2 relief.

0700-1500, 1500-2200, 2200-0700 and with 99,9% on auto....

They could quite easily run the new TVSC at Didcot & displace how many? Saving ££££.

This is starting to get way off topic.....

Are you basically saying that one person is expected to run the entire TVSC?

I'm afraid such a thing wouldn't be realistic for many of the reasons that TomNick has pointed out. I'm sure the unions would object for the same reasons and it would never happen.

Any monetary benefit that would be saved from getting rid of signaller positions like you say would be nullified by delay penalties and passenger upset. If the one person manning the signalling centre is dealing with an incident somewhere, then other things will escape his/ her attention. ARS is there to assist the signaller with their workload, not to completely take away their job. Workstations must be manned at all time for safety reasons.

 

[GB]

As someone who ultimately pays your wages, I think you're a waste.

I have no idea what your beef is with the signalling grade but that logic is pathetic.

I'd replace the lot of you with a computer, easy, reliable, no wages, no breaks, no holiday, works 24/7.

Reliable? What if elements of your precious computer systems fail?
No Wages? What about the wages of the programmers and the cost of the system its self and the wages of personel that maintain the system?
No breaks or Holiday? Granted, but whos gonna clean up the mess when something goes wrong such as routing your ever so special train onto a line that has a possession further up or granting you a block to examine your train?
Works 24/7? Does it?

ARS is all well and good for simple routing tasks when everything is on time, but give it complex junctions and conflicting movements coupled with late trains and it gets its self in a mess quite quickly...why do you think alot of signallers actively turn it off when they can? And as already mentioned, who's going to perform the other 99% of tasks?

It seems to me that you have never stepped foot in a signal box (certainly not a busy one or ones with workstations or panels) or bothered to even understand the role and its requirements. The level of depth that you are out of is also hugely noticable!

Personly I think you will find the role of the driver will be diminished alot sooner that that of signallers!