No driver for TPE ECS meaning disruption to Northern

[northwichcat]

Last night TPE couldn't source a driver to complete the Piccadilly to Airport part of this ECS move at the correct time: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y00017/2015/11/16/advanced

However, the 185 was parked in front of a Northern 142 meaning this service was subsequently delayed:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y34904/2015/11/16/advanced

I think that's the first time I've experienced a delay of that kind. How common is that type of problem?

 

[Loop & Link]

These things happen, if it was known about in advance then it probably shouldn't have blocked in the Chester service and should have been replatformed beforehand, if it was last minute, then not much you can do, Northern could have stepped a unit but it's all dependant on exam/mileage/fuel whether that could have happened.

 

[northwichcat]

These things happen, if it was known about in advance then it probably shouldn't have blocked in the Chester service and should have been replatformed beforehand, if it was last minute, then not much you can do, Northern could have stepped a unit but it's all dependant on exam/mileage/fuel whether that could have happened.

With the units available at Piccadilly at that time Northern could probably have arranged it so that a few services each departed a few minutes late opposed to one departing very late.

However, it did seem as though the TPE unit had been forgotten about. The Northern crew turned up but were surprised to see a 185 in front and the 142 then disappeared before reappearing with some in TPE uniform (presumably the duty manager) so it might have been the problem hadn't been communicated to Northern early enough for Northern to start rearranging which unit operated which service.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Last night TPE couldn't source a driver to complete the Piccadilly to Airport part of this ECS move at the correct time: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y00017/2015/11/16/advanced

However, the 185 was parked in front of a Northern 142 meaning this service was subsequently delayed:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y34904/2015/11/16/advanced

I think that's the first time I've experienced a delay of that kind. How common is that type of problem?

I have to ask, mainly because I do not understand, why couldn't the driver of the Ardwick to Piccadilly section keep on driving...?

 

[ComUtoR]

I have to ask, mainly because I do not understand, why couldn't the driver of the Ardwick to Piccadilly section keep on driving...?

Driving hours are restricted.
Break times are mandated both by law and contract.
Working hours are restricted.
They could have been booked off.
Incident.
Personal needs.

 

[Adam0984]

I believe it also happened last night at Sheffield where the Man Air to Cleethorpes was cancelled at Sheffield at 1711 but was brought into 1B which blocked the Retford train into 1A

 

[A-driver]

I have to ask, mainly because I do not understand, why couldn't the driver of the Ardwick to Piccadilly section keep on driving...?

Because that may well cause problems in the rest of their diagram-they may be booked to take out another train later and wouldn't be back in time meaning a different train would be without crew later.

Plus as has been stated already, drivers have strict rules to stick to regarding continuous driving time, a mandatory break and possible issues with route knowledge.

Plus of the crew were finished work at Manchester then it's entirely up to them if they work overtime to cover for unavailable relief. They are able to abandon the train at a terminal station. Even if they we willing to work extra (which I believe TPE drivers are not at present due to an industrial relation dispute) things like having to pick kids up from childcare/school, social lives etc can mean it isn't possible.

 

[James268]

I have to ask, mainly because I do not understand, why couldn't the driver of the Ardwick to Piccadilly section keep on driving...?

It's timetabled to wait for over an hour. The driver may have gone home completely unaware the next driver wasn't available. Or it could be a variety of issues listed above.

This may be a RTT error, especially as the TPE service's arrival is PASS on a bay platform, but the Northern service appears to have left 9 minutes earlier then the TPE. Is there any explanation for this?

 

[FordFocus]

Not rare at Piccadilly from both TPE and NT.

If I'm the driver of the empty stock from Ardwick, arriving into Piccadilly and then I'm booking off or then to work another service, I'd simply take my key out and leave the train secure. It's not my responsibility to ensure that all trains are rostered. There are people who get paid to ensure that staff are where they should be and if turns are uncovered make the appropriate arrangements including informing control and signallers.

 

[northwichcat]

It's timetabled to wait for over an hour. The driver may have gone home completely unaware the next driver wasn't available. Or it could be a variety of issues listed above.

This may be a RTT error, especially as the TPE service's arrival is PASS on a bay platform, but the Northern service appears to have left 9 minutes earlier then the TPE. Is there any explanation for this?

The times RTT shows for the Northern service are likely correct. It was 40 late at Knutsford and it got held by red signals before Skelton Junction, at Hale and at Mobberley, which added to the original delay.

Maybe RTT clocked the time of the 2035 Sheffield to Manchester Piccadilly going in to Piccadilly as the time the ECS departed?

 

[adam9413]

A similar thing happened at Lime Street platform 9 a few weeks ago, when 2H44 (1655 to MCO) was stuck behind a TPE which wasn't scheduled to go anywhere anytime soon. The 185 was moved to the headshunt after a driver was eventually found. The 1655 doesn't normally use platform 9 either.

 

[trainophile]

Man Picc quite often has the 1430 ATW departure to Milford Haven, which arrives into MAN officially 1415 but more usually around 1407, going from Platform 8, with the 1420 TPE to Cleethorpes coming in behind it on the same platform, so obviously departing before it.

A couple of times there has been a problem with the Cleethorpes departure (once the brakes were stuck on, which took ages to sort out), so the ATW has been stuck there until the TPE problem is dealt with.

More recently they now seem to have these two trains coming into different platforms, which also saves the usual palaver of the ATW guard having to ensure that everyone on board actually wants to go in the Wales direction! Almost every time there was a scramble of at least one person, and often several, who are on the wrong train, and have about a minute to get off it, run up the platform and dive onto the right one!

 

[northwichcat]

Man Picc quite often has the 1430 ATW departure to Milford Haven, which arrives into MAN officially 1415 but more usually around 1407, going from Platform 8, with the 1420 TPE to Cleethorpes coming in behind it on the same platform, so obviously departing before it.

A couple of times there has been a problem with the Cleethorpes departure (once the brakes were stuck on, which took ages to sort out), so the ATW has been stuck there until the TPE problem is dealt with.

More recently they now seem to have these two trains coming into different platforms, which also saves the usual palaver of the ATW guard having to ensure that everyone on board actually wants to go in the Wales direction! Almost every time there was a scramble of at least one person, and often several, who are on the wrong train, and have about a minute to get off it, run up the platform and dive onto the right one!

Given both trains call at Stockport after Manchester, boarding the wrong train would be a far worse disaster than what could potentially happen if you board the wrong train.

Of course there's lots of different problems which could occur by having two trains using the same platform at the same time. There was the infamous one of where a Northern service to Glossop was cancelled due to a train fault and it was the train closest to the buffers so shouldn't have caused an issue. However, a Northern 4 car 150 was sent to it's usual platform so stopped in front of the failed 323 and then the same happened with a 6 car TPE working (operated by 3 x 170s) but the latter didn't fit on the platform given the 4 car 150 was still there and with it being 3 x 170s the passengers in the front train were unable to alight even using local door operation.

 

[rick9525]

Man Picc quite often has the 1430 ATW departure to Milford Haven, which arrives into MAN officially 1415 but more usually around 1407, going from Platform 8, with the 1420 TPE to Cleethorpes coming in behind it on the same platform, so obviously departing before it.

A couple of times there has been a problem with the Cleethorpes departure (once the brakes were stuck on, which took ages to sort out), so the ATW has been stuck there until the TPE problem is dealt with.

More recently they now seem to have these two trains coming into different platforms, which also saves the usual palaver of the ATW guard having to ensure that everyone on board actually wants to go in the Wales direction! Almost every time there was a scramble of at least one person, and often several, who are on the wrong train, and have about a minute to get off it, run up the platform and dive onto the right one!

This often occurs with the Hadfield and York services on platform even though one is electric and looks like a local service.

 

[northwichcat]

This often occurs with the Hadfield and York services on platform even though one is electric and looks like a local service.

They are both 3 carriage trains with c.23.5m carriages and 2/3 doors though even if they are powered differently and have different seating configurations.

 

[rick9525]

They are both 3 carriage trains with c.23.5m carriages and 2/3 doors though even if they are powered differently and have different seating configurations.

Also one has Hadfield via Glossop on the front and is In Northern livery the other has York on the front and is in TPE livery with the TV saying York, Front Train. Always causes a bit of amusement though as people dart off last min.

 

[northwichcat]

Also one has Hadfield via Glossop on the front and is In Northern livery the other has York on the front and is in TPE livery with the TV saying York, Front Train. Always causes a bit of amusement though as people dart off last min.

Well I've been there on occasions where York train hasn't yet arrived and the destination blind on the 323 still says Manchester and York passengers have boarded the 323.

Although in the case of TPE 185 being at platform 2 on Monday evening in front of the Northern 142, none of the Chester passengers thought the 185 was their train despite the information displays not saying rear train only, obviously they all thought a modern looking train can't be a Northern service to Chester.

 

[BurtonM]

They're also both dark blue and purple with yellow ends...
I'm hoping there are some slightly more diverse liveries come franchise change time.

 

[Mettie2000]

They're also both dark blue and purple with yellow ends...
I'm hoping there are some slightly more diverse liveries come franchise change time.

How did you manage to catch the correct train under BR, when they were all the same livery?

 

[northwichcat]

How did you manage to catch the correct train under BR, when they were all the same livery?

This is what a 323 looked like under BR:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2589/3811056759_b668bcabe3_z.jpg?zz=1

And this is what a 158 on a TPE service looked like under BR:
https://travelandmixpix.smugmug.com...s-Sprinter/i-52VRC6Z/0/XL/2013-01-10_5-XL.jpg

I'll tell you what people did find confusing was when 150s looking like this:
http://flickrhivemind.net/blackmagi...www.flickr.com/photos/15218213@N06/2806298389
run the once regular Chester-Altrincham-Manchester-Southport services. At Chester and Southport people thought they were Merseyrail trains going via Liverpool.

 

[BurtonM]

In the early Northern days it wasn't easy to differentiate an unpainted Merseytravel 142 from a Merseyrail train, either.

 

[northwichcat]

In the early Northern days it wasn't easy to differentiate an unpainted Merseytravel 142 from a Merseyrail train, either.

They also had a Merseyrail logo on them (Merseyrail referring to the rail division of Merseytravel.) With Northern deciding to occasionally send some across to the ex-ATN area they confused some passengers over there.

Although, the Merseytravel 142s looked like less Merseyrail 507/8s than the Merseytravel 150s used to.