Northern cancellations getting worse

[geoffk]

One of the many inherent weaknesses of the privatised, fragmented railway - which still applies in the present altered circumstances - is that the regional passenger companies are treated as the training camps for new drivers. The have to carry the expense of recruitment and training new drivers who, after about three years of productive - but mind-numbingly boring - work, leave for more lucrative and interesting jobs with companies such as LNER, Avanti, Freightliner or GBRF....which have until recently only recruited qualified drivers.

Don't training costs have to be repaid if a driver leaves or moves to another company within a certain time period? EDIT I see there's another thread on this topic now.

 

[Bantamzen]

Which happens on a very regular basis anyway. The fact that a particular train is cancelled doesn't actually mean the passenger won't get to where they want to go. As always, the view from the inside is a lot more enlightened than everyone else's.

Once upon a time British Rail had the motto We're getting there".

Maybe based on that first sentence the circa 2023 motto should be "We'll get you there... Maybe..."

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Trains can't run if there is no conductor for the service.....it's that simple

Northern receive by far and away the biggest subsidy across all operators now and DfT need to be pushing OLR to sort things out here LNER cans tand on its own two feet.

 

[Moonshot]

Northern receive by far and away the biggest subsidy across all operators now and DfT need to be pushing OLR to sort things out here LNER cans tand on its own two feet.

Totally irrelevant......as I said, a Northern train will not run if a conductor ( or driver) is not available. It's that simple.

 

[asw22]

I understand the issues at hand, although you'd hope that those in charge would have previously been proactive in trying to mitigate for it. However cutting services, especially where they are not covered by bus routes is a sure fire way to drive more people away. As I mentioned in my previous post, even I found myself drifting away from the trains last summer with Transdev getting more of my hard earned. Its risking becoming a death by a thousand cuts, services are scaled back whilst TOC managers flail about trying to sort staffing levels out, passengers abandon the trains so that when new drivers come onboard there's fewer passengers so fewer services are needed, so drivers look to move on.

What an absolute mess the railway industry is in. Honestly I'm only glad I may only have another few years where train travel is necessary, after that I'm going to be able to choose more to stay away if things don't improve...

I've commuted daily on the Airedale line between 1992 and 1999 to / from Bradford, between 2003 and 2020 to / from Leeds and again from late 2022 to / from Leeds (with 2 return journeys per week in 2021 and 2022) so saw the tail end of BR and several franchises.

In the early 1990s the service was an hourly 2/3 car diesel on each of the Airedale and Wharfedale line services with the occasional additional Leeds to Carlisle / Morecambe.
Following electrification in 1996 / 1997, each service between Leeds / Bradford and Ilkley / Skipton was made half hourly (with Class 308s initially, followed by the 333s in 2001) and passenger numbers grew significantly (until 2020).

So passengers on these lines have been used to half hourly services for the best part of 25 years. I noticed that the Bradford services had reduced to hourly in 2022 but failed to spot that they had gone back to half hourly in December - not sure how well publicised this was but 4 to 5 months may not be enough time to test demand particularly when journeys in early 2023 seem busier than the equivalent journeys in 2022.

A drop to hourly, (with cancellations), will not help passenger numbers especially if passengers have access to a car / uber / taxi / bus service / work from home etc. Although a reliable hourly service with well timed connections may be better than an unreliable half hourly service.

On a separate note I think that there used to be a bus service between Bradford and Ilkley in the 1990s (the closest today would be to connect between the A3 and X84 at Otley).

Which happens on a very regular basis anyway. The fact that a particular train is cancelled doesn't actually mean the passenger won't get to where they want to go. As always, the view from the inside is a lot more enlightened than everyone else's.

If four or five services in a row are cancelled then I would hope that the company does its best to arrange an alternative (and it is good to hear when an alternative has been arranged).

 

[Halish Railway]

If four or five services in a row are cancelled then I would hope that the company does its best to arrange an alternative (and it is good to hear when an alternative has been arranged).

They did have to arrange a Frizinghall to Ilkley coach during the May 2022 - December 2022 timetable period due to a service used by schoolchildren being removed from the timetable. Fortunately this train remains in the timetable from the May timetable change.

 

[johntea]

Talking of Sheffield it is rather annoying when the Sheffield - Leeds Hallam stopper is delayed by 10 minutes or more because Northern seem to then decide more often than not to go fast after Normanton and skip Castleford to make up the delay!

I sort of get the logic behind doing so but it has been known in the past for the Knottingley line to also be suffering issues at the exact same time meaning a very long wait for the next train! I wonder if the upcoming second platform will help at all

Also I'm sure we used to get 158s fairly often on the route after we finally said goodbye to the pacers, but they seem to have become a rare sight in favour of 150s!

 

[Bantamzen]

I've commuted daily on the Airedale line between 1992 and 1999 to / from Bradford, between 2003 and 2020 to / from Leeds and again from late 2022 to / from Leeds (with 2 return journeys per week in 2021 and 2022) so saw the tail end of BR and several franchises.

In the early 1990s the service was an hourly 2/3 car diesel on each of the Airedale and Wharfedale line services with the occasional additional Leeds to Carlisle / Morecambe.
Following electrification in 1996 / 1997, each service between Leeds / Bradford and Ilkley / Skipton was made half hourly (with Class 308s initially, followed by the 333s in 2001) and passenger numbers grew significantly (until 2020).

So passengers on these lines have been used to half hourly services for the best part of 25 years. I noticed that the Bradford services had reduced to hourly in 2022 but failed to spot that they had gone back to half hourly in December - not sure how well publicised this was but 4 to 5 months may not be enough time to test demand particularly when journeys in early 2023 seem busier than the equivalent journeys in 2022.

I've lived in, and commuted from Baildon since 2009 although I was still a regular user of the triangle lines for many years before. And as you say in all that time all services have been half-hourly, with no-one ever questioning it and numbers generally on the rise. Especially as places like Shipley became more and more congested. It is true that some services sometimes run fairly empty, but then a flash of sunshine (for example) and the line is suddenly busy as people head for the countryside. (Of course now they'll show up at the station, see that the next Ilkley train isn't for nearly an hour & drive, maybe never to be seen again.)

Then covid happened and we haven't had a normal service since, save December 2022 - May 2023, which was as you note very much under the radar. So there's little way of knowing how a normal service would be received in the summer, and we may never find out. But losing the 2tph permanently will not help numbers at all, especially when connection times from/to the Wharfedale line at Shipley are dire in relation to overall journey times. I've said it before but these services are probably seen as low hanging fruit that the Northern plans hope won't cause much fuss, but they can still appease the great god of DfT Excel. It hasn't gone entirely unnoticed, local politicians are currently weaponising it for the forthcoming local elections although I don't know if successful candidates are sincere enough to take the matter forward.

A drop to hourly, (with cancellations), will not help passenger numbers especially if passengers have access to a car / uber / taxi / bus service / work from home etc. Although a reliable hourly service with well timed connections may be better than an unreliable half hourly service.

I've never really had a problem with reliability, in fact having 2tph on all routes often meant that a late runner towards Bradford FS could terminate short at Shipley to jump onto it's next path from there bringing the timetable back into line more quickly, whilst Bradford bound punters would have only a few minutes delay until the the one from Shipley. It actually seemed to work quite well.

But last summer that didn't seem to work anything like as well, late runners just kept on towards Bradford with subsequent services towards Skipton or Ilkley simply canned and the unit sat at Forster Square until it's next planned path from there. The result being that on a few occasions I'd arrive at Shipley to find more than an hour wait onwards back to Baildon, which would lead me to walk or get the bus. And on occasions I simply avoided entire journeys on the train as a result.

On a separate note I think that there used to be a bus service between Bradford and Ilkley in the 1990s (the closest today would be to connect between the A3 and X84 at Otley).

The main bus route was the 650, although there was also a 652 which went via Otley but not as frequently. In addition between Bradford & Gusieley were the 653s towards Harrogate, and the 655/755 towards Leeds via Headingly. All were canned throughout because punters as far as Guiseley were now using the regular trains when the 333s came into service (the 655/755 survived from Guiseley to Leeds as the 27 as it is numbered now, previously the 97).

 

[Iskra]

Talking of Sheffield it is rather annoying when the Sheffield - Leeds Hallam stopper is delayed by 10 minutes or more because Northern seem to then decide more often than not to go fast after Normanton and skip Castleford to make up the delay!

I sort of get the logic behind doing so but it has been known in the past for the Knottingley line to also be suffering issues at the exact same time meaning a very long wait for the next train! I wonder if the upcoming second platform will help at all

Also I'm sure we used to get 158s fairly often on the route after we finally said goodbye to the pacers, but they seem to have become a rare sight in favour of 150s!

I’d argue that’s a service improvement. Hallam Line trains should be going nowhere near Castleford. I wish that happened when I’m on them!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I’d argue that’s a service improvement. Hallam Line trains should be going nowhere near Castleford. I wish that happened when I’m on them!

Amen to that. It's baffling that those of us who commute from the smaller South Yorkshire stations to Leeds have to endure a needless diversion to (and reversal at) Castleford when running direct from Normanton to Woodlesford would save 10-15 minutes on the journey time.

It's the equivalent of Northern insisting that all Skipton-Leeds service would have to go via (and reverse at) Bradford Forster Square. I don't think Aire Valley commuters would stand for that!

 

[Iskra]

Amen to that. It's baffling that those of us who commute from the smaller South Yorkshire stations to Leeds have to endure a needless diversion to (and reversal at) Castleford when running direct from Normanton to Woodlesford would save 10-15 minutes on the journey time.

It's the equivalent of Northern insisting that all Skipton-Leeds service would have to go via (and reverse at) Bradford Forster Square. I don't think Aire Valley commuters would stand for that!

…and then getting crowded out of boarding them on the way South by Castleford passengers in the evening peak or on weekends, despite them having another option (plus presumably buses) whereas passengers from South Yorkshire don’t and have to wait another hour or try squeeze on the 2 coach Hallam Semi-Fast and change; which is also rammed because XC services are inadequate.

It is a shambles, but then pretty much the whole South Yorkshire train service is currently. It’s also been like this so long that it’s just become an ingrained problem that seems to just be accepted.

Sheffield-Leeds should have a similar service as what is intended to run on the TP core to link two key Northern city regions.

 

[Neptune]

Amen to that. It's baffling that those of us who commute from the smaller South Yorkshire stations to Leeds have to endure a needless diversion to (and reversal at) Castleford when running direct from Normanton to Woodlesford would save 10-15 minutes on the journey time.

It's the equivalent of Northern insisting that all Skipton-Leeds service would have to go via (and reverse at) Bradford Forster Square. I don't think Aire Valley commuters would stand for that!

From the SY stations wouldn’t you just change onto the following fast at Barnsley or Wakefield and get to Leeds 10 minutes earlier to boot. Same in reverse, catch the xx38 Lincoln and change at Wakey onto the stopper. The reality is that the only passengers on the 2Lxx stoppers that need to do the Castleford stop are those going to/from Normanton.

 

[Iskra]

From the SY stations wouldn’t you just change onto the following fast at Barnsley or Wakefield and get to Leeds 10 minutes earlier to boot. Same in reverse, catch the xx38 Lincoln and change at Wakey onto the stopper. The reality is that the only passengers on the 2Lxx stoppers that need to do the Castleford stop are those going to/from Normanton.

If you can get on them, which is not guaranteed as they are busy, 2-car trains operating the second fastest journey between two large city regions. Sometimes it's better to get the slow train and at least get there, however tedious that makes the journey. The semi-fasts seem slightly more prone to cancellation too.

 

[Killingworth]

The Sheffield - Leeds short formed trains issue is simply resolved - extend distant Platform 17 at Leeds. It's supposedly going to be done. Quite an easy job I've heard it described, plenty of space, shouldn't take long.

Hang on, further development seems to be on hold until we can resolve what's happening with HS2.

Those saying it's an easy job haven't sauntered to the end of narrow Platform 17 when passengers are waiting for two separate trains for Sheffield, semi-fast and stopping at most stations. It's confusing for those who don't travel very often. It's the poor man's back door entrance, or exit. Quality it's not.

Anything is possible but points, signalling, electrification and the emergency fire exit above Victorian brick and stonework, closely alongside active business and residential properties doesn't look like an easy extension job to me,.

I hope others may be able to explain how cheap and easy such construction would be and how it can be quietly achieved, all within 2 or 3 years - or a decade.

 

[yorksrob]

The Sheffield - Leeds short formed trains issue is simply resolved - extend distant Platform 17 at Leeds. It's supposedly going to be done. Quite an easy job I've heard it described, plenty of space, shouldn't take long.

Hang on, further development seems to be on hold until we can resolve what's happening with HS2.

Those saying it's an easy job haven't sauntered to the end of narrow Platform 17 when passengers are waiting for two separate trains for Sheffield, semi-fast and stopping at most stations. It's confusing for those who don't travel very often. It's the poor man's back door entrance, or exit. Quality it's not.

Anything is possible but points, signalling, electrification and the emergency fire exit above Victorian brick and stonework, closely alongside active business and residential properties doesn't look like an easy extension job to me,.

I hope others may be able to explain how cheap and easy such construction would be and how it can be quietly achieved, all within 2 or 3 years - or a decade.


View attachment 133393

HS2 hasn't stopped them tinkering with everything else at Leeds, including putting in platform 0.

If they are using uncertainty over HS2 not to extend platform 17 as an excuse, then it is just that - an excuse.

Perhaps the real reason is that the Government won't sanction it as they would be expected to provide enough rolling stock, as opposed to scrapping more of it

 

[zwk500]

If they are using uncertainty over HS2 not to extend platform 17 as an excuse, then it is just that - an excuse.

Looking at the picture the reasons they haven't extended P17 include the available width being below the required 2.5m, needing to move the signal which would then foul the overlap so now you've got to move the points which means a signalling change which requires a possession of at least 2 lines of the throat to install the new points but probably more because there looks to be a few OLE gantry legs and masts in the way that will need the power disconnecting to be moved.

 

[YorksLad12]

The Sheffield - Leeds short formed trains issue is simply resolved - extend distant Platform 17 at Leeds. It's supposedly going to be done. Quite an easy job I've heard it described, plenty of space, shouldn't take long.

Hang on, further development seems to be on hold until we can resolve what's happening with HS2.

Those saying it's an easy job haven't sauntered to the end of narrow Platform 17 when passengers are waiting for two separate trains for Sheffield, semi-fast and stopping at most stations. It's confusing for those who don't travel very often. It's the poor man's back door entrance, or exit. Quality it's not.

Anything is possible but points, signalling, electrification and the emergency fire exit above Victorian brick and stonework, closely alongside active business and residential properties doesn't look like an easy extension job to me,.

I hope others may be able to explain how cheap and easy such construction would be and how it can be quietly achieved, all within 2 or 3 years - or a decade.


View attachment 133393

Yup. P17 is an armpit of a platform and the narrow bit around the lift to reach it isn't great either, especially if you're swimming against the tide. Wish we could move the lift to the other side of the footbridge and have a flight of steps but that would be a real expense, even if possible.

It is easy, in that we can look at it and say what needs to be done (and have, above). I can't remember what the proposed length is, but I don't think there's space for 6x23m plus a bit on either end, even with moving the points, signalls and straightening the track to try and make the platform a bit wider. Doing it is probably a Christmas possession too, which is going to annoy the hotel and the Candle residents.

A better (cheaper) solution would be to extend either the stoppers or semi-fasts east of Leeds (which is where the East Leeds Parkway Station suggestion from a decade or so ago came in), but you'd need available through line and viaduct space to weave the services in and out.

 

[johntea]

Northern seem to use Platform 16 quite a bit these days later in the evening for Sheffield stopper / Knottingley services since many Transpenine Express services that would previously be taking up that platform have become almost permanently invisible!

One annoyance around Platform 17 is the fact there is a staff / emergency exit door straight out to the Southern entrance / exit which they actually opened for passengers at one point during the pandemic, a pity they couldn't have planned that better with a few ticket barriers or something for a permanent passenger route!

 

[YorksLad12]

Northern seem to use Platform 16 quite a bit these days later in the evening for Sheffield stopper / Knottingley services since many Transpenine Express services that would previously be taking up that platform have become almost permanently invisible!

One annoyance around Platform 17 is the fact there is a staff / emergency exit door straight out to the Southern entrance / exit which they actually opened for passengers at one point during the pandemic, a pity they couldn't have planned that better with a few ticket barriers or something for a permanent passenger route!

If you look at it from the inside you'll see that there's no space for a gateline for, effectively, just one platform (17). The whole Southern Entrance edifice is packaged tighter than an Adrian Newey F1 car because it wasn't allowed to block the light from neighbouring buildings... I think at least one of the escalators needed a derogation as it's too steep.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Northern currently showing 49 cancellations for the rest of the day. All bar eight diesel services in Yorkshire.

 

[david737]

An awful lot of cancellations on the Harrogate's this afternoon looks like at least 3 diagrams (or parts of) not covered the worst I've seen for a while. with the 2006, 2029 & 2129 Leeds all canx there will be a gap of 3 hours this evening although there is the LNER from London (2100 ex Leeds) you can't rely on this as it gets canned at Leeds quite often if its late.

 

[skyhigh]

An awful lot of cancellations on the Harrogate's this afternoon looks like at least 3 diagrams (or parts of) not covered the worst I've seen for a while. with the 2006, 2029 & 2129 Leeds all canx there will be a gap of 3 hours this evening although there is the LNER from London (2100 ex Leeds) you can't rely on this as it gets canned at Leeds quite often if its late.

At least 3 York Conductor jobs uncovered. Road transport is booked as a replacement.

 

[Killingworth]

Curious that 2S71, the 17.14 from Sheffield to Manchester to Piccadilly, was cancelled today (This service was cancelled due to an issue with the train crew (TH)) but 195111 ran ECS as 5S71. This route is normally (always?) crewed there and back from Manchester. It had arrived from Manchester as 2S88.

 

[skyhigh]

Curious that 2S71, the 17.14 from Sheffield to Manchester to Piccadilly, was cancelled today (This service was cancelled due to an issue with the train crew (TH)) but 195111 ran ECS as 5S71. This route is normally (always?) crewed there and back from Manchester. It had arrived from Manchester as 2S88.

No conductor available to work the return trip due to an operational incident.

 

[gazzaa2]

Northern currently showing 49 cancellations for the rest of the day. All bar eight diesel services in Yorkshire.

It was a pain getting back to Manchester from Leeds last night, factoring in the awful TPE service as well with their own cancellations (and engineering works at Huddersfield)

 

[Geeves]

There was a bridge strike late on around Bradford somewhere so that didn't help much.

 

[Peterthegreat]

After a relatively quiet morning Northern are now showing 37 cancellations. 33 of which affect Yorkshire.

 

[david737]

At least 3 York Conductor jobs uncovered. Road transport is booked as a replacement.

Yes I did see a York Pullman coach at Harrogate station around 9 last night when I came out of the Tap pub by the station. Another half a dozen or so canx today as well including last up & down from Harrogate to York and last Leeds Harrogate as well with the usual caveat on Northern's disruption page 'please travel on the next available Northern service' which is a bit difficult as that will be tomorrow morning!

 

[ricoblade]

3 Northerns today, Doncaster - Sheffield, Hope - Sheffield and Sheffield - Retford, all on time and no sign of any cancellations, please keep it up!

I did hear a strange announcemnt at Sheffield this morning, not sure if it was TPE or XC, "this train has been cancelled due to overcrowding".

 

[Falcon1200]

I rarely use Northern, and to be fair, on the odd occasion I have there have been no real issues. Not so, today, however;

Travelling from Oxford to Glasgow I decided to go via XC to Stockport, EMR from there to Manchester Oxford Road, then Northern (1C55 1029 Manchester Airport [MIA]-Barrow) to Preston for a good connection into Avanti. I had checked that all trains were running, and they were, including 1C55, formed by 195121.

So I arrived at Oxford Road, a little late but in time for 1C55, only to see no mention of it on the information screens; Not showing cancelled, just not mentioned at all! But thanks to a non-rail industry system (Realtime Trains) I found that it was indeed cancelled, due to a traincrew issue, code TH.

While waiting at Oxford Road working out what to do next, the place descended into chaos; A train from Barrow, 1Y94 0848 to MIA, arrived in Platform 2 and stood there for 29 minutes, due to unit swap, code YU. Meanwhile, a train, formed strangely enough by 195121, arrived in Platform 3 from the Piccadilly direction and was advertised as a train back to MIA, that set then stood for a while and before departure was amended to running to Piccadilly only - An absolutely ludicrous, pointless train. Meanwhile trains backed up behind this set resulting in delays of up to 30 minutes to services for Liverpool, Blackpool, Saltburn and Glasgow. No attempt was made to route anything via Platform 1.

Passenger information was desperately poor as well, although I doubt whether the station staff knew any more about what was going on than the passengers.

Just an embarrassing shambles.