Northern line service levels

[bramling]

How much is automated these days? Ideally computers should help regulate the service. In parctice, I dare say, there is only so much you can do if a train is cancelled or runs late.

In the case of the Seltrac system, it’s very automated, such that it can probably be reasonably said that the signallers don’t actually signal trains. When they do intervene all they can realistically do is influence the system into behaving in certain ways. So for example the signaller might hold one train which ensures another one will be routed first. Or they might adjust the timings of a train so that the system routes it in preference to another.

With the system having been designed by software engineers in Canada with fairly minimal understanding of London Underground, one can see how this means the finished product leaves a lot to be desired in terms of how it handles and regulates train movements. This really shows up during disruption.

Is it just my experience or are things worse at the weekend where traffic is now exceeding pre-covid levels? Presumably if there is a shortage of operators that is when it shows up most.

A lot of weekend issues are down to crewing. Firstly the duties are tighter, as they are designed on the basis of requiring as few drivers as possible to cover all the work that needs doing. Secondly there is always a tendency towards poorer availability of drivers at weekends, especially Saturdays. Partly old habits die hard in that traditionally weekdays were seen as more important (and to be honest should still be - it’s all very well people going on about leisure demand, however productive work is what ultimately sustains a healthy economy and society), but also most people simply don’t really want to work weekends, not helped by the duties being generally rougher as described above.

On top of that, generally schedules tend to be a bit tighter, and at the same time weekend passengers are more of a ball-ache in general as they take longer to get on and off, more likely to get stuck in closing doors, all try and get on through one set of doors, do silly things, et cetera. Plus sometimes exacerbated loadings if there’s engineering work on one line causing people to switch to another, and of course lopsided traffic due to events.

So yes things are always rougher at weekends.

 

[xtmw]

I believe TBTC handles things itself if a train is early/late

 

[Daniel]

I believe TBTC handles things itself if a train is early/late

Not really. It can reduce platform dwell times to the minimums set for that platform, but it makes very poor regulation choices.

 

[bakerstreet]

9 minute gap on northbound northern line (Charing x branch) at 4.30pm Monday evening peak.

 

[xtmw]

9 minute gap on northbound northern line (Charing x branch) at 4.30pm Monday evening peak.

I believe the extended gaps are due to an earlier problem in the Oval area

 

[bakerstreet]

I believe the extended gaps are due to an earlier problem in the Oval area

Ah ok - unconnected then, thanks.
But unfortunate that board says good service

 

[Busaholic]

But unfortunate that board says good service

One 9 minute gap has never triggered the generalised service advice, which is not intended to change for each line every few minutes and thus become almost like a lottery, leading to meaningless. The term has certainly been in use since WW2, possibly earlier, and must carry some weight for TfL to continue using it.

 

[bakerstreet]

One 9 minute gap has never triggered the generalised service advice, which is not intended to change for each line every few minutes and thus become almost like a lottery, leading to meaningless. The term has certainly been in use since WW2, possibly earlier, and must carry some weight for TfL to continue using it.

Yes that’s true, but mine was not the only nine minute gap, even the trains from towards the terminus into Central London were crowded, there were further 7 to 9 minute gaps that I saw on the southbound when I arrived at my destination.

Presumably, if this is the aftermath of a problem, perhaps it might be worth knowing that trains will be far more crowded than usual – I had to miss my first train and I’m sure others did too.

I certainly would welcome the advance notice.

Isn’t that what the status ‘minor delays’ is for?

From TfL - https://tfl.gov.uk/status-updates/status-definitions

Good service​

Services are running as we'd expect them to. There may be the occasional short local delay or gap, but we are running as advertised.

Minor delays​

You might have to wait a little longer or your service may take longer to reach its destination. It sometimes means that your journey will be busier than usual, but we don't recommend changing your route.

Severe delays​

Our service is significantly disrupted. You are likely to have to wait, and your journey will take a lot longer than usual. This means your journey is likely to be busy and your service may not travel all the way to its advertised destination.

We recommend taking another route if you can. Where possible, we'll arrange for your ticket to be accepted on London Buses and National Rail at no extra cost.

Length of delays​

These service messages don't give the length of time you can expect to be delayed by because the frequency of services varies across different parts of TfL. In some cases, there are services every two minutes while on others, they're every 30 minutes.

This means that when there is disruption, the actual length of the delay will vary. So Minor delays could mean a delay of a few minutes at a central London station, but a longer delay further out on our network.

 

[Daniel]

Ah ok - unconnected then, thanks.
But unfortunate that board says good service

You said you were travelling at 16:30 - it's currently 17:30 and the Northern Line is advertising Severe Delays across the entire line because of a signal failure which occurred at 11:53. I'm not sure which board you checked, but I'm wondering if either it was a non-TfL one, or one of the platform DMI boards which have to be manually updated and therefore wasn't showing what was actually the advertised service status. It looks as if the line has been advertising 'Severe' since resuming after a part suspension which ceased at 15:57.

 

[bakerstreet]

You said you were travelling at 16:30 - it's currently 17:30 and the Northern Line is advertising Severe Delays across the entire line because of a signal failure which occurred at 11:53. I'm not sure which board you checked, but I'm wondering if either it was a non-TfL one, or one of the platform DMI boards which have to be manually updated and therefore wasn't showing what was actually the advertised service status. It looks as if the line has been advertising 'Severe' since resuming after a part suspension which ceased at 15:57.

It was the portrait plasma board at Mornington Crescent station entrance.

Perhaps the board had more than one page - that might explain it.

I definitely checked the board when I saw the unexpected gap but I may not have waited long enough to see an additional page.

 

[bramling]

One 9 minute gap has never triggered the generalised service advice, which is not intended to change for each line every few minutes and thus become almost like a lottery, leading to meaningless. The term has certainly been in use since WW2, possibly earlier, and must carry some weight for TfL to continue using it.

Good service is a relatively recent thing. It was always “normal service”, but got changed I think at some point in the early 2000s, to give a feel-good factor. What it did was immediately cause issues for staff when people query why a “good service” has just seen them wait far longer for a train than scheduled.

 

[Goldfish62]

Good service is a relatively recent thing. It was always “normal service”, but got changed I think at some point in the early 2000s, to give a feel-good factor. What it did was immediately cause issues for staff when people query why a “good service” has just seen them wait far longer for a train than scheduled.

It was terminology brought over from the New York Subway by the then Commissioner, Bob Kiley.

Quite apt really, given the North American influence on the Underground since its inception.

 

[bramling]

It was terminology brought over from the New York Subway by the then Commissioner, Bob Kiley.

Quite apt really, given the North American influence on the Underground since its inception.

Aha that rings a bell. I knew it dates from around that time.

 

[Mikey C]

Good service is a relatively recent thing. It was always “normal service”, but got changed I think at some point in the early 2000s, to give a feel-good factor. What it did was immediately cause issues for staff when people query why a “good service” has just seen them wait far longer for a train than scheduled.

The expression "good service" slightly irritates me as well, as it sounds like patting yourself on the back for delivering what should be normal anyway...

 

[bramling]

The expression "good service" slightly irritates me as well, as it sounds like patting yourself on the back for delivering what should be normal anyway...

Agreed. I dislike it. It feels like another example of managements that can’t be honest with themselves, but instead want to delude themselves to justify their performance. That’s TFL all over, very sadly.

The Northern Line recently won an award for its service. Not really that much of an achievement when put into context and one considers that the competition is the Central Line!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I believe the extended gaps are due to an earlier problem in the Oval area

Yes - there was a signal failure around lunchtime between Stockwell and Oval; this caused enough disruption that I ended up bailing out at Old Street for a bus to London Bridge after the train was just sitting there for ten minutes following a previous five minute hold at Angel. At that point it was obvious what was going to be the quicker way!