Obese Travelers On Trains

[RichmondCommu]

1) Richmond Commuter, have you been having a chat with Katie Hopkins recently?
2) As we often state on here, purchasing a ticket does not entitle the traveler to a seat. I think it's therefore very difficult to argue that larger people should buy two tickets because they take up two seats. It sets a precedent that purchasing a ticket entitles the traveler to a seat, which is not true.
3) Obviously this traveler doesn't necessarily deserve a seat any more than anyone else, and it's clear he's been a bit of a ****. However, plenty of obese people travel on trains every day without causing problems.
4) Do TOCs have the staff and resources to weigh passengers and calculate their fare accordingly? Get real.
5) Width of seats on trains varies. Someone who may fit into a standard seat on an HST may not fit a 3+2 seat on a 321. Would the train operating the service determine the fare used? What about routes where different trains operate, with different seat widths? What about 334s, where the width in the middle carriage (3+2 seating) is less than the outer two carriages - would obese people be barred from the middle carriage?
6) What about standees? Given the obese person has paid twice, does this mean that (s)he's doubly entitled to a seat compared to everyone else when a train is full and standing?

Completely unworkable nonsense.

Ok, an honest question here; who is Katie Hopkins?

Whilst I concur that buying a ticket doesn't entitle you to a seat I never suggested that it did although I accept that I should have made that more clear. However if you are obese you should understand that it's unfair to completely take up two seats (as the bloke did) when you've only bought one ticket. That's no difference to buying a ticket, finding two seats next to each other, plonking your bag on the vacant seat and refusing to move it.

If you are buying a ticket at the ticket office I don't understand why it shouldn't be possible for you two be charged two seats (and given two reservations) if the TOC employee decides that you are too big for one seat. Otherwise if you are only reserved for one seat how are you going to sit down unless someone else moves?

And if you're buying tickets and reserving seats over the internet why shouldn't the TOC state that if you are over a certain size you need to have two tickets and reservations? Either that or if you are over a certain size the TOC simply tells you via the website that it is no able to reserve you a seat.

I would also argue that if you are traveling on a commuter train (citing two examples that you have given of limited seat width) then even if you are obese you should still be able to stand up for twenty to thirty minutes.
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If part of being pregnant was putting the mother and baby at risk by being in this travelling situation then the decision would be to find a work around or not to go ahead with the idea.

In all fairness I'm not so sure that traveling on a busy Tube train is any more of a threat to the mother and child than driving. In which case are you suggesting that heavily pregnant ladies should not be driving? I still don't understand why any of this places additional responsibilities on Tube workers as you have suggested.

 

[ComUtoR]

So are you suggesting that those passengers that require the use of more than one seat to be able to sit down should only be charged for one seat? What's fair about that if you're on a packed train and unable to get a seat?

May I refer you to my first post. We should absolutely charge fat people more. Using my criteria of BMI or Weight it should resolve most of the problems and we can always reduce the BMI to 28 and the target weight to 95kg should fat people still decide to take up too much room.

If space is your issue then maybe we could use a volumetric calculation but, importantly, we should calculate the person and their luggage, pets, children etc. Sadly pregnant people will pay more because their beautiful bumps take up more space.

We could just make the fatties stand and restrict seating to those who are much more deserving.

@me123. Your being too intelligent for this thread !

 

[RichmondCommu]

Who ever said life is fair and trying to bring in ridiculous conditions and procedures just for a fairly rare occurrence is nonsense.

I've not heard that since I was in the play ground at primary school forty years a go :roll: Given the obesity crisis in this country what is a fairly rare occurrence at the moment is only going to become more common place.
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May I refer you to my first post. We should absolutely charge fat people more. Using my criteria of BMI or Weight it should resolve most of the problems and we can always reduce the BMI to 28 and the target weight to 95kg should fat people still decide to take up too much room.

If space is your issue then maybe we could use a volumetric calculation but, importantly, we should calculate the person and their luggage, pets, children etc. Sadly pregnant people will pay more because their beautiful bumps take up more space.

We could just make the fatties stand and restrict seating to those who are much more deserving.

In which case what's the difference between what you've suggested and my idea of changing railway bylaws? And why do you think that idea is so "shocking" compared to your own?

 

[ComUtoR]

If you are buying a ticket at the ticket office I don't understand why it shouldn't be possible for you two be charged two seats (and given two reservations) if the TOC employee decides that you are too big for one seat.

It's subjective. A cute and curvy woman (apologies for the misogynism) might find that a wink and a smile saves her a few quid. I know I wouldn't charge extra A heavy set bodybuilder I'd charge the extra seat to but a Sumo wrestler I'd waive the fee as it may be considered offensive.

Where would you draw the line ? I'm drawing it by BMI and weight so that it becomes clear to all passengers and staff alike. We could even PF fat people if they didn't pay the surcharge.

 

[RichmondCommu]

It's subjective. A cute and curvy woman (apologies for the misogynism) might find that a wink and a smile saves her a few quid. I know I wouldn't charge extra A heavy set bodybuilder I'd charge the extra seat to but a Sumo wrestler I'd waive the fee as it may be considered offensive.

Where would you draw the line ? I'm drawing it by BMI and weight so that it becomes clear to all passengers and staff alike. We could even PF fat people if they didn't pay the surcharge.

Oh I wish you'd been on the same train that we were. Believe me there is a huge different huge between a "cute and curvy woman" and the bloke that we encountered. In fact the difference would be startling.

Of course many things in life are subjective but if you are over twenty stone in weight then you are surely going to realise that you will struggle to fit into a single seat and that amended railway bylaws apply to you.

 

[ComUtoR]

Oh I wish you'd been on the same train that we were. Believe me there is a huge different huge between a "cute and curvy woman" and the bloke that we encountered. In fact the difference would be startling.

There isn't a huge difference. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Of course many things in life are subjective but if you are over twenty stone in weight then you are surely going to realise that you will struggle to fit into a single seat and that amended railway bylaws apply to you.

Ok so we draw the line at 20 stone. Is it a sliding scale or simply a double charge (two seats ?) Do we charge double for season tickets ? How do we check a passengers correct weight before they travel. We could put weigh stations at each ticket window so that simply standing in front of the window will display your weight to the teller.

If you purchase two seats are they guaranteed ? Are you able to get a refund if your unable to get a seat ? I assume this is a specific charge for seating and not standing ?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Ok, an honest question here; who is Katie Hopkins?

Whilst I concur that buying a ticket doesn't entitle you to a seat I never suggested that it did. However if you are obese you should understand that it's unfair to completely take up two seats (as the bloke did) when you've only bought one ticket. That's no difference to buying a ticket, finding two seats next to each other, plonking your bag on the vacant seat and refusing to move it.

If you are buying a ticket at the ticket office I don't understand why it shouldn't be possible for you two be charged two seats (and given two reservations) if the TOC employee decides that you are too big for one seat. Otherwise if you are only reserved for one seat how are you going to sit down unless someone else moves?

And if you're buying tickets and reserving seats over the internet why shouldn't the TOC state that if you are over a certain size you need to have two tickets and reservations? Either that or if you are over a certain size the TOC simply tells you via the website that it is no able to reserve you a seat.

I would also argue that if you are traveling on a commuter train (citing two examples that you have given of limited seat width) then even if you are obese you should still be able to stand up for twenty to thirty minutes.
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In all fairness I'm not so sure that traveling on a busy Tube train is any more of a threat to the mother and child than driving. In which case are you suggesting that heavily pregnant ladies should not be driving? I still don't understand why any of this places additional responsibilities on Tube workers as you have suggested.

Driving, well that is a decision for the individual and not something others have to cater for.

I'm not sure where the tube workers come in either I thought I'd missed something when you mentioned it!

 

[RichmondCommu]

There isn't a huge difference. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

That's very true however if you are obese you're obese whether someone fancies you or not.

Ok so we draw the line at 20 stone. Is it a sliding scale or simply a double charge (two seats ?) Do we charge double for season tickets ? How do we check a passengers correct weight before they travel. We could put weigh stations at each ticket window so that simply standing in front of the window will display your weight to the teller.

If you purchase two seats are they guaranteed ? Are you able to get a refund if your unable to get a seat ? I assume this is a specific charge for seating and not standing ?

According to the discretion of the TOC employee at the ticket office (and who you would expect to have a decent working knowledge of their trains) they will decide whether its necessary for a traveler to reserve two seats in order for them to sit down on the train. And if you are reserving two seats then you need to buy two tickets. And if you are booking tickets over the internet the same restrictions apply to people over a certain size / weight.

In answer to your question regarding season tickets any seasoned commuter will tell you that a season ticket is no guarantee of a seat, indeed far from it.

And in all honesty if the TOC has to weigh someone in order to decide whether they need to reserve two seats than why not? Although as I've suggested I honestly don't think that would be necessary.
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I'm not sure where the tube workers come in either I thought I'd missed something when you mentioned it!

Well you appear to have been suggesting in post 53 that pregnant ladies travelling during the 'Peak' created more work for others.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I didn't mean tube workers, I meant everyone else on the tube

 

[Zamracene749]

What happens when these chubsters use trains with IC70 seats with fixed armrests?
Will they get twice as much free food and drink if they buy two tickets?
What if they travel 1st class where seats are normally wider?
What if the train doesn't do reservations- will two miserable skinny gets be made to sit together so that the fatty can have the double seat he or she has paid for?

And has RichmondCommu been busy handing out offensive cards on the underground over xmas?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I didn't mean tube workers, I meant everyone else on the tube

OK so does it affect their job then? How does a pregnant lady travelling on the Tube create more work for them, given that's what you're suggesting?
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And has RichmondCommu been busy handing out offensive cards on the underground over xmas?

No I haven't and I think that's a disgraceful and mean spirited thing to do! I have no issues with obese people what so ever until they start to demand a seat over someone else.
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What happens when these chubsters use trains with IC70 seats with fixed armrests?
Will they get twice as much free food and drink if they buy two tickets?
What if they travel 1st class where seats are normally wider?
What if the train doesn't do reservations- will two miserable skinny gets be made to sit together so that the fatty can have the double seat he or she has paid for?

Well how do you think an obese person who needs two seats is going to sit down if the arm rests are fixed? If someone decides to book a first class ticket then I'm guessing that they'll realize that the seats are bigger; at least you seem to be aware of that.

And if the train doesn't do reservations then you're not entitled to a seat in which case there's no argument! As you are probably aware buying a ticket on a train doesn't entitle you to a seat.

 

[JB_B]

A fat person answers.
A fat person answers.

I have to say that I am appalled by some of the attitudes being displayed by posters in this thread. Are people really so openly aggressive to people who are larger than average? I am not excusing what the gentleman did in an attempt to obtain a seat - I'd never do that to anyone but the open hostility being displayed here is a concern. The ideas about "punishing" fat people through the railway's pricing and conditions of carriage are beyond belief.
....

Thanks for posting this - it seems that some people have forgotten that first and foremost fat people are ... human beings.

It's interesting that the original poster describes objectionable and antisocial behaviour by one particular passenger who happened to be fat but decided to start a thread with the title " Obese Travelers On Trains" - a click-bait-starter that has given us such charming sentiments as "fat f****r stew in his own sweat... burger induced lard arse". It's a classic over-generalization used by people who want to create fear or hatred of the 'out group' - hopefully that wasn't intentional.

( + thanks ComUtoR - it's a bit sad to see that your Swiftian 'modest proposals' needed explaining but that's where we are it seems .... )

 

[Zamracene749]

To be honest it sounds like you were just unfortunate and met an obnoxious bloke, that happened to be a fat git as well, for whatever reason. Increasing size will always be a problem in affluent societies, but i'm not sure that charging extra for travel is the way forward, since it is basically discriminatory.

I'm much heavier than 20 stone, but can still fit into an IC70 seat(just). If i can I will always travel 1st class, to avoid causing others discomfort. I avoid busy trains if possible, and will end up perched halfway off a seat in the aisle to avoid squishing others, and have spent many a journey in considerable pain from cramps by trying to stop my legs and arms impinging onto a fellow passenger.

We just need folk of all sizes to be a little more considerate of others IMO.....

PS if it's any consolation to you anorexics out there, modern individually sculpted seating is generally damned uncomfortable bordering on painful for us Santa sized folk.....

 

[me123]

Ok, an honest question here; who is Katie Hopkins?

You don't know who she is? Lucky you.

Enjoy.

 

[trainophile]

Laughing at the prospect of standing on a weighing machine at the ticket counter, and forgetting I have my 50lb backpack on! Also that wouldn't work for people collecting from TOD machines.

Maybe there should be some sort of Railcard, that you pay for e.g. £50 a year. You don't get discounted tickets, but if you are found to be occupying two seats and can't show your railcard, then you would have to pay for the other seat. If you do have the Railcard then you may occupy both seats provided someone in greater need isn't standing. A bit like under-5s travelling free.

 

[TUC]

If those people had paid for their seats and had sat down first, it is not their fault for not giving said seats up. What you have described is assault

It is their fault for lacking manners though

 

[VauxhallandI]

A decision you make when you decide to have a child. However these days it becomes more and more other people's jobs to cater for the decisions of others.

No you've misinterpreted the "job" word.

My point is if you chose to have a child then you should plan this out and try to void such situations if you think it is so hard for a pregnant woman to stand.

Eg

Finish work early.
Travel at better times
Work from home
Get a lift to a station where a seat is possible

I'm sure there are many other things.

However it would seem that these things are not done and it is down to everyone to cater for your lifestyle choice no matter what the other individuals have going on in their lives.

Pregnancy is not a disability.

 

[Watto1990]

I'm amazed that train spotters have the gall to be this judgey about other people's appearances, to be quite frank.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

It is their fault for lacking manners though

So if I am on a train and a pregnant woman boards and there are no seats, you suggest I get up and stand so she can take my place?

...



Sorry, but I got the seat first and I shall stay on it

 

[EssexGonzo]

Thanks for posting this - it seems that some people have forgotten that first and foremost fat people are ... human beings.

It's interesting that the original poster describes objectionable and antisocial behaviour by one particular passenger who happened to be fat but decided to start a thread with the title " Obese Travelers On Trains" - a click-bait-starter that has given us such charming sentiments as "fat f****r stew in his own sweat... burger induced lard arse". It's a classic over-generalization used by people who want to create fear or hatred of the 'out group' - hopefully that wasn't intentional.

( + thanks ComUtoR - it's a bit sad to see that your Swiftian 'modest proposals' needed explaining but that's where we are it seems .... )

Well said. I'm pretty amazed that so many of the posts in reply have tended towards bigotry. And that the thread title led with Obese rather than Obnoxious.

I wonder what the title would have been had the person had been "foreign looking"?

To be honest it sounds like you were just unfortunate and met an obnoxious bloke, that happened to be a fat git as well, for whatever reason. Increasing size will always be a problem in affluent societies, but i'm not sure that charging extra for travel is the way forward, since it is basically discriminatory.

Exactly. He was obnoxious.

Most of the obnoxious travellers I've come across have been normal size but with pointy elbows, spread legs, wandering handbags and coats that really must have their own seat. Selfish cocks, basically.

 

[Watto1990]

So if I am on a train and a pregnant woman boards and there are no seats, you suggest I get up and stand so she can take my place?

...



Sorry, but I got the seat first and I shall stay on it

You can try and argue this point all you want; the simple fact is that is is common courtesy to allow a pregnant woman a seat and to do otherwise is widely considered as (and I'm using the technical parlance here) a dick move.

 

[bb21]

I can't really work out whether this thread has become a joke or what.

I don't have time to go through the whole thread atm but some of the opinions expressed are pretty shocking to say the least, on a brief look.

As for physical violence implied further up the thread, yeah right, as if, and no, the forum does not condone it.

 

[VauxhallandI]

You can try and argue this point all you want; the simple fact is that is is common courtesy to allow a pregnant woman a seat and to do otherwise is widely considered as (and I'm using the technical parlance here) a dick move.

Equality rules.

I'm not saying I've never done it but I think it's rude to expect everyone to jump to cater for your life choice.

Or are we saying woman aren't built for child birth and are the weaker sex?

 

[PermitToTravel]

Not really sure why I'm wading into a troll-pit of a thread, and certainly not condoning this sort of restriction, but...

Perhaps a more workable method, taking into account that seats can't ever be guaranteed, would just be to completely forbid any one person from taking up more than one seat on a train? On empty trains this needn't be enforced and fatties can sit down; but where people are standing, [insert penalty of choice] can be done to anyone spreading out into the adjacent seat, anyone whose coat protrudes slightly into it, anyone who's given their bag a seat, etc, etc. For bonus points, kids under 5 count as part of the person accompanying them

 

[trainophile]

I'm amazed that train spotters have the gall to be this judgey about other people's appearances, to be quite frank.

It's not about their appearance, it's the fact that they take up two seats.

I wonder what the title would have been had the person had been "foreign looking"?

Foreign looking people generally only take up one seat. Unless they are seriously obese, in which case they fall into the same category as non-foreign looking seat hoggers.

 

[TUC]

So if I am on a train and a pregnant woman boards and there are no seats, you suggest I get up and stand so she can take my place?

...



Sorry, but I got the seat first and I shall stay on it

Do you know how self-centred you come across?

 

[andyb2706]

1. Anyone with a BMI of 30+ must pay a premium.
2. Anyone over 100kg's must only travel off peak.
3. Anyone over 150kg's are not allowed to travel.

Just a few options.

This does not work. I am 15 1/2st and classed as obese according to the unreliable BMI, even a top rugby player who is pure muscle can be classed as obese, and I can easily fit into any train seat without affecting other passengers so here I think you are talking a load of tripe....sorry, but you annoyed me with this comment.

The problem with this incident is that wasn't that he was obese. It was that he was trying to be a cheeky F****** and if he did have a bad back is was because of his weight and what about the person stood behind who had also paid top dollar for their ticket don't they deserve a seat?

I think the OP was too soft and I would have totally ignored him and if he carried on report him as being disruptive when the conductor was able to get through.

 

[RichmondCommu]

No you've misinterpreted the "job" word.

In that case how did you want me to interpret the word "job"?
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My point is if you chose to have a child then you should plan this out and try to void such situations if you think it is so hard for a pregnant woman to stand.

Eg

Finish work early.
Travel at better times
Work from home
Get a lift to a station where a seat is possible

I'm sure there are many other things.

However it would seem that these things are not done and it is down to everyone to cater for your lifestyle choice no matter what the other individuals have going on in their lives.

Pregnancy is not a disability.

Of course you do realize that some women like my wife work shifts or did you "not plan that out"? And of course for other women, in particular those who work in areas such as the Financial Services sector you are expected to be your desk by a certain time. Or did you not "plan that out" either?

So that of course rules out finishing work early or indeed traveling at better times as you put it. I think its fair to say that anyone who has a desk based job would rather work from home but of course in many cases that is not possible. And of course if you live in a big city traveling to station perhaps 30 minutes away in traffic is seldom feasible.

Now for what its worth I've never suggested that everyone else should have to change the way that they travel to in order to accommodate pregnant ladies or that pregnancy should be treated as a disability. However you of course already know that.
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I'm amazed that train spotters have the gall to be this judgey about other people's appearances, to be quite frank.

Who said anything about train spotters?
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Equality rules.

I'm not saying I've never done it but I think it's rude to expect everyone to jump to cater for your life choice.

Or are we saying woman aren't built for child birth and are the weaker sex?

Heaven help your wife / partner / girlfriend (assuming of course that you are straight) if they ever become pregnant.
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Well said. I'm pretty amazed that so many of the posts in reply have tended towards bigotry. And that the thread title led with Obese rather than Obnoxious.

I wonder what the title would have been had the person had been "foreign looking"?

Exactly. He was obnoxious.

Most of the obnoxious travellers I've come across have been normal size but with pointy elbows, spread legs, wandering handbags and coats that really must have their own seat. Selfish cocks, basically.

In all honesty I've not suggested that he was being obnoxious, a nuisance yes but not obnoxious. I chose to mention that he was obese (which indeed he was) because it was that had caused all the disruption. And I certainly don't think its fair to try appear to label me as being a bigot given that your claim has no foundation what so ever.

 

[cjmillsnun]

This has to be one of the most offensive threads I've read in a long time, and I say that as someone who can just about squeeze into the centre seat of the 3 in a 450 (ie slim!)

Even if it was a joke thread, it would not be funny.

 

[bramling]

Do you know how self-centred you come across?

I can see two sides to it. I must admit the attitide of some has tended to put me off giving up seats to anyone. For example when a family with 2x buggies chose to board a crowded Underground train and then basically made it clear they *expected* seats to be made available to them and got quite vitriolic when noone did (notwithstanding the fact they could have waited for a less crowded train, or chose to board a less crowded part of the same train), or the elderly man at te bus stop who expected young people to get out of his way because "I want to sit down".

I think it's fair to say that those who display this attitude certainly don't deserve seats to be given up. At the end of the day some people will take care to plan their journey so that they have a greater chance of a seat, for example arriving early for the train, choosing a slower train, leaving earlier, etc, and I don't see why such people, having already made a trade-off, should automatically sacrifice that for someone who can't be bothered to make minor adjustments to their routine.

You get people who arrive at a terminus just before the train is due to depart, and then moan that they don't get their seat of choice. As though it's somehow the fault of others that they have dared to choose the seat. Being cynical you can't win with some people so don't bother trying.