Off peak travel card restrictions

[RochdalePioneers]

The last time I bought my usual Finsbury Park - Zones 1-6 Off Peak travel card, the collection machine at Darlington told me that it wasn't valid out of Paddington or Euston during evening peak (16omething to 18omething I think).

However, the ticket has a B1 restriction which says valid after 09:30 and says nothing about any other restrictions. I have read about FGW getting creative with what tickets they will accept - another example?

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[34D]

Some Outboundary offpeak travelcards have an evening restriction for BZ6 to origin, but remain unrestricted within.

 

[maniacmartin]

Various ticket machines operated by different TOCs have started displaying this message about FGW trains (and sometimes about Virgin trains out of Euston), despite this restriction not being mentioned in the restriction code of the travelcards. I'm not sure its enforceable, given that you can get the tickets from ToD or a clerk without seeing the message, and the sheer amount of publicity that exists showing the tickets valid on any train in the zones except for Heathrow Express and HS1.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

You can see the "debate" now. "That's not valid, didn't you read what it said on the ticket machine"? Okay so the restriction code on the ticket says its valid, as does all the published materials, but if the TOC decides what it wants then that's the "law".

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[maniacmartin]

I wrote to TfL about this message appearing on London Overground machines, and to their credit they did update their TVMs accordingly to no longer display the message. So you could try writing to the TOC concerned.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The restrictions out of Paddington/Euston for B1 are in the electronic version of the restrictions used by booking engines. There's a whole host of unpublished and undocumented extra restrictions in there - it's a bit like the way there are now also two versions of the routeing guide - the public enforceable one and the secret one used by booking engines.

 

[34D]

The restrictions out of Paddington/Euston for B1 are in the electronic version of the restrictions used by booking engines. There's a whole host of unpublished and undocumented extra restrictions in there - it's a bit like the way there are now also two versions of the routeing guide - the public enforceable one and the secret one used by booking engines.

Are you in a position to quote the full B1 hidden text, please?

 

[Searle]

The machines at Hertford North display this message, although I've always assumed that it's only for trains back to Hertford (ie. the outboundary bit), even though they don't apply to me. I can take a picture, I'll be down there at about 10:30

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The last time I bought my usual Finsbury Park - Zones 1-6 Off Peak travel card, the collection machine at Darlington told me that it wasn't valid out of Paddington or Euston during evening peak (16omething to 18omething I think).

Off peak restrictions out of Paddington only apply to longer distance services with first stop Reading. It's been noted on this forum that station staff at Paddington struggle with the notion that not all off peak tickets valid through Paddington have this restriction, particularly on the return leg.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Are you in a position to quote the full B1 hidden text, please?

It's not really in a position to be "quoted", as it isn't in human-readable form. Although I am working on a computer program that will translate it into human-readable form. It's a bit complicated though. Basically it says (manually translated by me):

(Applies Monday to Friday only excepting bank holidays)

Outward Only

• Not valid to depart any station on any TOC between 0230-0929

Return Only

• Not valid to depart Elephant & Castle on any TOC between 1620-1844
• Not valid to depart Moorgate on any TOC between 1624-1907

Outward & Return

• Not valid to depart London Euston on Virgin between 1600-1815
• Not valid to depart London Paddington or Reading on First Great Western during various 2-minute periods dotted throughout the evening peak, corresponding to the departure times of long-distance services (this one is not without some collateral damage).
• Also not valid on the following trains:
  • 1715 London Paddington to Maidenhead
  • 1815 London Paddington to Oxford
  • 1745 London Paddington to Reading
  • 1845 London Paddington to Reading (Friday only)
  • 0300 London Victoria to Three Bridges
  • 0400 London Victoria to Brighton
  • 0907 Guildford to London Waterloo
  • 0927 Chingford to London Liverpool Street

 

[MarlowDonkey]

[*]Also not valid on the following trains:

• 1715 London Paddington to Maidenhead
• 1815 London Paddington to Oxford
• 1745 London Paddington to Reading
• 1845 London Paddington to Reading (Friday only)

• 
  
  Unless for reasons of overcrowding, those are very strange exclusions as all four trains are stoppers and are stopping within zones 1-6 as far as West Drayton.
  
  It was simpler when there were two franchises, restrictions on Inter City services could simply make them FGW only.

 

[philjo]

It's not really in a position to be "quoted", as it isn't in human-readable form. Although I am working on a computer program that will translate it into human-readable form. It's a bit complicated though. Basically it says (manually translated by me):

(Applies Monday to Friday only excepting bank holidays)

Return Only

• Not valid to depart Elephant & Castle on any TOC between 1620-1844
• Not valid to depart Moorgate on any TOC between 1624-1907

Why the Moorgate restriction? Presumably this was used for the former Thameslink services that no longer exist. FCC publicity states there is no restriction for GN services from London when travelling back to GN stations as far north as Knebworth or Watton at Stone - the restrictions only apply for tickets to returning to Stevenage or beyond.

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/tickets-and-fares/off-peak-tickets/travel-off-peak/ticket-restrictions/

That probably explains why with a travelcard from Potters Bar the journey planners will allow use of the stopper trains from Kings Cross in the evening peak but will not allow the use of the WGC stoppers from Moorgate (joining say at Finsbury Park)

 

[RochdalePioneers]

For clarity when I see the message at Darlington I'm not buying an out boundary ticket, I'm collecting a Finsbury Park to Z1-6 Travelcard. And I love the idea of two versions of restrictions. You have the public published contractual one. Then you have the unpublished made up on the spot one where TOCs try to avoid their contractual obligations to con more money out of passengers by promoting nonenforceable restrictions.

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[MikeWh]

For clarity when I see the message at Darlington I'm not buying an out boundary ticket, I'm collecting a Finsbury Park to Z1-6 Travelcard.

Well that is just plain wrong then. Complain to the machine operator.

 

[Muzer]

I've been wondering - I assume (since it's not available to the public!) that the electronic routeing guide and ticket restrictions are completely unenforceable (where they restrict something allowed in the public one)?

 

[bb21]

I've been wondering - I assume (since it's not available to the public!) that the electronic routeing guide and ticket restrictions are completely unenforceable (where they restrict something allowed in the public one)?

That is my understanding.

 

[maniacmartin]

Well that is interesting. Certainly if you bought from a ticket office then there is only one contract, the paper one. However the NRCoC says that you will be advised of restrictions when purchasing, and the TVM advises customers of some restrictions when purchasing, so it could then be argued that the restrictions can be enforced.

I suspect the real reason for the restrictions being different electronically in this case is so that the booking engines won't recommend a Travelcard for these services, and the TOC can get more money.