old buses in London

[THarris123]

In London at the mo and have noticed that Go Ahead seem to have a lot of old Tridents kicking around. These are 02-2004 plate vehicles. They also seem to have quite a few 2004 reg B7TLs. I thought in London they had to be newer and its still a bit surprising they would allow such old buses to operate in central London.

Also, saw a 16 plate CT plus Decker but couldn't figure out what it was - are they running some sort of Scanias? or is it Optares?
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Do they have any Borismasters outside of London? Are there any proposals to have them outside of London?

 

[90sWereBetter]

The old Volvos with Go-Ahead, along with many hundreds of other buses in London, were modified with emissions kit a few years ago, which is why they've been kept in service so long. The huge allocation of 52 reg WVLs at Putney will all be withdrawn in October, as all the routes which use these buses have been retendered with new hybrids, to combat pollution in Putney High Street.

The oldest buses in London service at the moment are Abellio's 51-reg Tridents, which are used on rail replacement and on the 381 and C3, and Go-Ahead's 51-reg Darts, which are scattered around their garages as top-up vehicles.

 

[overthewater]

Just in time to help out replace high floor deckers on School runs

 

[90sWereBetter]

Also, saw a 16 plate CT plus Decker but couldn't figure out what it was - are they running some sort of Scanias? or is it Optares?

They are the new Enviro 400 City model, used on the 26 and 78 at present. ADL chassis.

 

[CatfordCat]

I'm not quite up to speed with the detail of contracts, but think the general principle is that a bus can do two 7 year contracts (with a refurbishment between contracts) so a 14 year old bus is not unreasonable.

And a number of routes do have temporary additional buses allocated at the moment to cope with the effect of the many roadworks schemes that are slowing traffic down.

re CT Plus - Bus Lists on the Web (this is the home page - you'll have to do a new search) shows that they have a number of 2016 Alexander Dennis E40H double deckers - these are for route 26, which CT plus started operating on 25 June. Photo of one here (not my photo - just a Flickr search)

As for Borismasters, a few have done short term publicity / demonstrator stints outside London, and I think in theory any operator outside London could buy them. They haven't yet...

 

[THarris123]

I'm not quite up to speed with the detail of contracts, but think the general principle is that a bus can do two 7 year contracts (with a refurbishment between contracts) so a 14 year old bus is not unreasonable.

And a number of routes do have temporary additional buses allocated at the moment to cope with the effect of the many roadworks schemes that are slowing traffic down.

re CT Plus - Bus Lists on the Web (this is the home page - you'll have to do a new search) shows that they have a number of 2016 Alexander Dennis E40H double deckers - these are for route 26, which CT plus started operating on 25 June. Photo of one here (not my photo - just a Flickr search)

As for Borismasters, a few have done short term publicity / demonstrator stints outside London, and I think in theory any operator outside London could buy them. They haven't yet...

That's the CT plus one I saw. Thanks all.

 

[Robertj21a]

Just in time to help out replace high floor deckers on School runs

Except there's no need if it's not available to the general public.

 

[Busaholic]

Just in case anyone is in any doubt, all school routes run under TfL auspices, in the 600 series, are worked by low floor buses and have been for many years. London General did work one with a number in the series that wasn't contracted by TfL because the school seved was in Surrey, and they have used 'heritage' buses on it in extremis, even a Routemaster!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The 668 from Cheam to Leatherhead via Ruxley Lane is worked by step entrance buses, although I believe the contract for this is issued by Surrey County Council rather than TfL.

 

[Busaholic]

The 668 from Cheam to Leatherhead via Ruxley Lane is worked by step entrance buses, although I believe the contract for this is issued by Surrey County Council rather than TfL.

It is!

 

[Deerfold]

Just in case anyone is in any doubt, all school routes run under TfL auspices, in the 600 series, are worked by low floor buses and have been for many years.

Not forgetting school extras running on the 150 and 405 - short runs under separate contracts to the main route - and like the 6xx routes open to the general public.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Is there a maximum age for any bus that's to be used in London?

 

[TRAX]

I don't know if it's a strict rule, but for most groups the buses are kept in London for 6-7 years and sent to other activities in smaller cities and towns.

Apart from that the maximum age for a bus is 12 to 17 years, sometimes more.

 

[pdq]

How old were the Titans when they were withdrawn?

 

[Antman]

How old were the Titans when they were withdrawn?

Not far off 20 years, great buses though.

 

[THarris123]

Do the Borismasters have the old style seating that the routemasters had?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Do the Borismasters have the old style seating that the routemasters had?

The NB4L have a sort of individual bench seating (if that's not a contradiction in terms) in that there are individual seat cushions but a single seat back and hand rail.

However, it's not a traditional bench seat as an RM and the moquette is different (though the colour pallette of the interior is reminiscent of the traditional RM).

I don't mind the seating and interior hues. It's the utter pointlessness of the design and the added expense that I don't like. Apparently, neither do operators. One of the utterances from BoJo was “The Chinese desperately need low-emission buses. We should be out here. One of the advantages of the new bus is that it is the cleanest, greenest bus in the world. It would be the absolute perfect thing not just for Hong Kong but also for Beijing” whilst on a trade mission.

No-one other than TfL has bought one! Another great Johnson quote though not quite up there with the £350m porkies.

 

[Mikey C]

In London at the mo and have noticed that Go Ahead seem to have a lot of old Tridents kicking around. These are 02-2004 plate vehicles. They also seem to have quite a few 2004 reg B7TLs. I thought in London they had to be newer and its still a bit surprising they would allow such old buses to operate in central London.

Also, saw a 16 plate CT plus Decker but couldn't figure out what it was - are they running some sort of Scanias? or is it Optares?
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Do they have any Borismasters outside of London? Are there any proposals to have them outside of London?

While London buys vast numbers of new buses, a number of older vehicles (1,800) have been kept in service by having Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) system fitted to the exhaust which improves them to Euro IV standard, which is the minimum standard for buses in London now

This link covers the main programme, which was then extended

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...ld-s-largest-bus-retrofit-programme-compjeted

 

[Antman]

The NB4L have a sort of individual bench seating (if that's not a contradiction in terms) in that there are individual seat cushions but a single seat back and hand rail.

However, it's not a traditional bench seat as an RM and the moquette is different (though the colour pallette of the interior is reminiscent of the traditional RM).

I don't mind the seating and interior hues. It's the utter pointlessness of the design and the added expense that I don't like. Apparently, neither do operators. One of the utterances from BoJo was “The Chinese desperately need low-emission buses. We should be out here. One of the advantages of the new bus is that it is the cleanest, greenest bus in the world. It would be the absolute perfect thing not just for Hong Kong but also for Beijing” whilst on a trade mission.

No-one other than TfL has bought one! Another great Johnson quote though not quite up there with the £350m porkies.

I was under the impression that London United had bought some two door models?

The £350m isn't 'porkies' but this is hardly the place to go into it.........again:roll:

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I was under the impression that London United had bought some two door models?

The £350m isn't 'porkies' but this is hardly the place to go into it.........again:roll:

It was an outright lie and even Farage said it was a mistake!!! Boris and the truth are seldom seen in the same room.

I do feel sorry for those who are affected and hope they can be redeployed but the folly of this was always apparent.

 

[Ian Hardy]

Is there a maximum age for any bus that's to be used in London?

The maximum age for a bus to be used on a TfL service is 14 years:

That is made up of:

5 years for a contract and then a possible 2 year contract extension

At this point the bus has to be refurbished then it can be used for another:

5 years for another contract (which does not have to be the same route) and another 2 year contract extension

So at present buses should be 2002 so there should be nothing earlier than a 02 reg, which there are not many left when the new vehicles are delivered (for Go Ahead, London United, Metroline & Stagecoach) and the LTs.

 

[Antman]

It was an outright lie and even Farage said it was a mistake!!! Boris and the truth are seldom seen in the same room.

I do feel sorry for those who are affected and hope they can be redeployed but the folly of this was always apparent.

Then start a new thread about it in the appropriate section and see who is interested instead of trying to hijack this one.

The folly of what exactly?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Then start a new thread about it in the appropriate section and see who is interested instead of trying to hijack this one.

The folly of what exactly?

Oh sush!

The folly is that it was a design concept that necessitated a two man crew that simply wasn't cost effective. The NB4L was a folly in that it provided a solution to a problem that simply didn't exist.

This has been said "ad nauseum" and it is a point that has been borne out in the end.
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The maximum age for a bus to be used on a TfL service is 14 years:

That is made up of:

5 years for a contract and then a possible 2 year contract extension

At this point the bus has to be refurbished then it can be used for another:

5 years for another contract (which does not have to be the same route) and another 2 year contract extension

So at present buses should be 2002 so there should be nothing earlier than a 02 reg, which there are not many left when the new vehicles are delivered (for Go Ahead, London United, Metroline & Stagecoach) and the LTs.

To be fair, a fourteen year life is not much different to the good old days of the NBC where a thirteen year life was envisaged for most vehicles (and people bemoaned the scrapping of "perfectly good" vehicles at that point)

 

[Antman]

Oh sush!

The folly is that it was a design concept that necessitated a two man crew that simply wasn't cost effective. The NB4L was a folly in that it provided a solution to a problem that simply didn't exist.

This has been said "ad nauseum" and it is a point that has been borne out in the end.
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To be fair, a fourteen year life is not much different to the good old days of the NBC where a thirteen year life was envisaged for most vehicles (and people bemoaned the scrapping of "perfectly good" vehicles at that point)

It's a problem that does very much exist, what do you suggest should happen when traffic grinds to a halt and people want to get off? Elderly and infirm people also found a CA to help them on and off very useful.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's a problem that does very much exist, what do you suggest should happen when traffic grinds to a halt and people want to get off? Elderly and infirm people also found a CA to help them on and off very useful.

Amazingly, traffic congestion is not a London only phenomenon. They seem to manage in every other major city but not London???

Glad to see you're on the side of the elderly and infirm. However, there was a vehicle that they tended to prefer.... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/dec/11/bendy-buses-london-boris-johnson

 

[Antman]

Amazingly, traffic congestion is not a London only phenomenon. They seem to manage in every other major city but not London???

Glad to see you're on the side of the elderly and infirm. However, there was a vehicle that they tended to prefer.... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/dec/11/bendy-buses-london-boris-johnson

And what is their magical solution? Do nothing?

Yes the bendy buses are fine when there is plenty of room onboard, the ones in London were akin to cattle trucks although it would be illegal to carry cattle in such conditions.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

And what is their magical solution? Do nothing?

Yes the bendy buses are fine when there is plenty of room onboard, the ones in London were akin to cattle trucks although it would be illegal to carry cattle in such conditions.

Well, they've done nothing except improve bus priority, remove private car usage where practicable, improve boarding times through early adoption of ticketing technology etc...... Surely you've seen this when you've gone abroad?? It's also not an exhaustive list either!

However, London is the ONLY city in the world that has decided that this was the solution. A ridiculously expensive solution that has now been binned by them as it singularly failed to address the root cause.

Of course, the bendibuses were larger, had a higher capacity and, as the article mentioned, many more of the seats were accessible for those pensioners whose health you so rightly care for.

 

[Antman]

Well, they've done nothing except improve bus priority, remove private car usage where practicable, improve boarding times through early adoption of ticketing technology etc...... Surely you've seen this when you've gone abroad?? It's also not an exhaustive list either!

However, London is the ONLY city in the world that has decided that this was the solution. A ridiculously expensive solution that has now been binned by them as it singularly failed to address the root cause.

Of course, the bendibuses were larger, had a higher capacity and, as the article mentioned, many more of the seats were accessible for those pensioners whose health you so rightly care for.

But they don't have a CA to assist OAPS.

The idea didn't fail at all, in fact the open platform and CA were very popular.

 

[Deerfold]

But they don't have a CA to assist OAPS.

The idea didn't fail at all, in fact the open platform and CA were very popular.

The bendybuses could have had CAs without the extra expense of the bendybuses.

The idea has failed because there is not enough money and it doesn't make enough difference to bus users for TfL to pay the extra - if this is wrong I'm sure the London Assembly will hold them to account.

 

[Robertj21a]

I was under the impression that London United had bought some two door models?

Have they ?

Where did you hear that ?
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But they don't have a CA to assist OAPS.

The idea didn't fail at all, in fact the open platform and CA were very popular.

I'm sure most people can think up success stories if they throw £millions at it.