Paddington to Plymouth in 2.5 hours?

[Jamesrob637]

Could this be done with only one stop at Exeter? 1 hour 45 to Exeter and 45 to Plymouth.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What's the current fastest journey time? = ~Three hours?

 

[The Planner]

Could this be done with only one stop at Exeter? 1 hour 45 to Exeter and 45 to Plymouth.

Not a chance, even if you removed Reading, Newton Abbot and Totnes you would only save around 12 ish minutes. Where are you saving 15 minutes from the current time of 2 hours from Padd to Exeter?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Not a chance, even if you removed Reading, Newton Abbot and Totnes you would only save around 12 ish minutes. Where are you saving 15 minutes from the current time of 2 hours from Padd to Exeter?

Non stop and with a couple of line improvements here and there. Don't know line speeds west of Newbury I'm afraid.

 

[MarkyT]

What's the current fastest journey time? = ~Three hours?

There will be a limited stop Penzance train this summer only stopping at Exeter before Plymouth. Leaving Paddington at 12:03, it will arrive at Plymouth at 14:54, a journey time of 2h 51m. That must be about the best you'd get with today's infrastructure and trains. Cornish passengers will get little benefit from this acceleration however as the train is then timed to stand at Plymouth for 10 minutes. Times from London to Cornish stations are about 5 minutes faster than those applying today for the equivalent train with more stops or at other times of the day. Missing Reading, with its many connections, creates a four hour gap between direct trains for Cornwall from the town.

 

[JonathanH]

Don't know line speeds west of Newbury I'm afraid.

Try the Sectional Appendix, which sets them out in diagrammatic form.

https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blob.core.windows.net/sectional-appendix/Sectional%20Appendix%20full%20PDFs%20March%2024/Western%20and%20Wales%20Sectional%20Appendix%20March%202024.pdf

 

[The Planner]

Non stop and with a couple of line improvements here and there. Don't know line speeds west of Newbury I'm afraid.

There is only one stop, Reading. Which costs about 4-5 minutes. You need a LOT of improvements to get another 10 minutes.

 

[cle]

There will be a limited stop Penzance train this summer only stopping at Exeter before Plymouth. Leaving Paddington at 12:03, it will arrive at Plymouth at 14:54, a journey time of 2h 51m. That must be about the best you'd get with today's infrastructure and trains. Cornish passengers will get little benefit from this acceleration however as the train is then timed to stand at Plymouth for 10 minutes. Times from London to Cornish stations are about 5 minutes faster than those applying today for the equivalent train with more stops or at other times of the day. Missing Reading, with its many connections, creates a four hour gap between direct trains for Cornwall from the town.

This wait is a little shame. Bridge-based? Cornwall itself is more important than Plymouth as a market - in summer certainly. Although I would say that none of this is super time critical.

There are no flights (Plymouth/Exe, I know there is Newquay) - and by road is far slower, even on a regular service that calls at Taunton, Totnes etc.

But I think if regular services to Cornwall were Exeter-Totnes-Plymouth only, that would stimulate demand. It can feel very slow, esp at the country end.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

. Don't know line speeds west of Newbury I'm afraid.

The Great Western built the line from Newbury to Taunton by amalgamating a series of branch lines. Maximum speed is 110 mph I believe. Beyond Exeter there are lots of curves and gradients.

Didn't the Western Region in the 1960s try a non-stop Paddington- Plymouth service?

When the line was closed at Dawlish, wasn't it shown faster than the regular service from Cornwall to London to take a coach down the A30 or A38 and M5 to Tiverton Parkway and train from there?

 

[MarkyT]

When the line was closed at Dawlish, wasn't it shown faster than the regular service from Cornwall to London to take a coach down the A30 or A38 and M5 to Tiverton Parkway and train from there?

The direct Plymouth coaches from Tiverton Parkway were no slower than the regular rail timings I recall.

 

[JonathanH]

But I think if regular services to Cornwall were Exeter-Totnes-Plymouth only, that would stimulate demand. It can feel very slow, esp at the country end.

That is as much because of the twists and turns resulting from the landscape as the stations on the way.

When the line was closed at Dawlish, wasn't it shown faster than the regular service from Cornwall to London to take a coach down the A30 or A38 and M5 to Tiverton Parkway and train from there?

Tiverton Parkway to Plymouth non stop is similar by road and train given the road and rail network.

 

[BrianW]

Could this be done with only one stop at Exeter? 1 hour 45 to Exeter and 45 to Plymouth.

Why?

 

[cle]

I think a shade under 2 and a shade under 3 is very respectable. I would push for an hourly Paignton to mop up some of the medium sized calls (Newton, Tiverton, Taunton) - which could be an extension of the semi-fast Exeter, or replace it. I would then suggest an hourly Westbury (instead of Bedwyn).

 

[brad465]

Tye only way I can see that time happening is if a new line under Dartmoor was built direct from Exeter to Plymouth. However it would be very expensive, both generally and for its benefits, as well as not being a priority for rail needs in the UK.

 

[cambsy]

looking on Real Time Trains, the 12.03 Paddington-Penzance is Exeter first stop Exeter 13.59-14.02, pick up only, then Plymouth 14.54. The Paddington-Exeter section is pretty tightly timed, with Reading pass 12.25, Taunton 12.38.5, with 5 mins recovery built in between Reading and Exeter, this pretty tightly timed for this line.

The lines maximum speed is 125mph Paddington-Reading, 100 mph onto Newbury, then in short sections 110 mph onto Heywood Junction, then 100mph max onto Exeter, then beyond Exeter it’s 100mph max to just before Starcross, then onto Plymouth Penzance it’s 60-75mph max, with brief stretches of 90 mph between Teignmouth and Newton Abbott, and brief 80mph stretch around Hemerdon. With line speeds beyond Exeter being pretty slow, it is indeed pretty much same time by coach as train between Tiverton Parkway and Plymouth, and if go M5 and A30 to Penzance by car or coach, one comfortably beats the train.

 

[Grecian 1998]

Exeter - Plymouth was built with the intention of using atmospheric power for propulsion. The kindest way to describe this was 'fine when working, utterly useless the moment anything went wrong'. The consequence was that Newton Abbot - Plymouth in particular was built with sharper curves and steeper gradients than would have been used for steam traction, with consequences which last today. Not Brunel's finest hour.

Newton Abbot - Totnes is 50-55mph and Totnes to the top of Hemerdon Bank is 60mph. You're going to struggle to average 90mph with 30 consecutive miles at 60mph or lower.

I assume the engineers have probably eked out the maximum feasible speed out the existing route, so as said you won't be saving any time here without building a new line.

Occasionally it's suggested Taunton - Reading could be improved to 125mph. IIRC posters in the know have advised it would save a whopping 3 minutes at gargantuan expense.

I suspect the only modest improvement you might get is putting discontinuous electrification on the Newton Abbot - Plymouth section to improve acceleration and reduce maintenance on the 802s. I suspect standing starts in either direction at Totnes on hot summer days put some strain on the diesel engines. Probably still a difficult sell to the DfT / Treasury.

 

[irish_rail]

I recently did Exeter to Plymouth on an ECS 80x with all engines working well in about 50 minutes. I wasn't especially trying for a quick run, so maybe a tiny bit more could be erased, though I think 45 minutes probably isn't doable. Not stopping at Totnes on the down is where the biggest time savings are made in my experience due to the stiff climb up Rattery.

Similarly losing Taunton and Tiverton is helpful due to the 100mph linepseed through them, though I reckon the absolute best you could do London to Exeter at present with a decent set would be 20 to Reading ( I can confirm that's doable), then about 90 minutes to Exeter , so non stop about 110 minutes Paddington to Exeter provided no speed restrictions and a good set.

 

[Irascible]

When the line was closed at Dawlish, wasn't it shown faster than the regular service from Cornwall to London to take a coach down the A30 or A38 and M5 to Tiverton Parkway and train from there?

Yes, the average speed for most services ( which have to stop ) is rather less than the average direct road journey. I don't think there's a need for a giant tunnel ( through granite! ) under Dartmoor to make things faster, but it'd definitely be a bit more than just small bits of slewing.

For reference Plymouth to Exeter city centres is about 31nm by helicopter.

Not stopping at Totnes on the down is where the biggest time savings are made in my experience due to the stiff climb up Rattery.

Interesting, I asked about that before & was informed it'd save very little - how much do you think you'd actually get? Not stopping at either Taunton & Tiverton is not a great service, they're both railheads for a vast area which does admittedly overlap. Back when we lived in Tiverton we'd go to Taunton if there wasn't a train calling at either Jct or Parkway in the right timeframe.

 

[dk1]

Three hours or very slightly under is the nearest you’ll get.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Three hours or very slightly under is the nearest you’ll get.

2hrs 51m to Plymouth.
There’s a train from June with a near on clean path that matches the OP’s stopping pattern!

Realtime Trains | 1203 London Paddington to Penzance | 12/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1203 departure from London Paddington to Penzance on 12/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Would electrification bring anything to the party - the 80Xs seem very sluggish compared to HSTs on the South Devon banks?

 

[MarkyT]

Exeter - Plymouth was built with the intention of using atmospheric power for propulsion. The kindest way to describe this was 'fine when working, utterly useless the moment anything went wrong'. The consequence was that Newton Abbot - Plymouth in particular was built with sharper curves and steeper gradients than would have been used for steam traction, with consequences which last today. Not Brunel's finest hour.

I think the tight curvature is just down to building within a limited budget in a difficult landscape, following contours to limit extents of new earthworks and structures. A maximum design speed of 50 or 60mph was about all that was achievable with any technology of the time, so wasn't unreasonably low. The trains were lightweight though and propulsion was independent of friction which allowed the steep gradients, also limiting work and costs. People feared early steam wouldn't manage such steep gradients but fortunately, loco technology and capabilities were developing rapidly.

I suspect the only modest improvement you might get is putting discontinuous electrification on the Newton Abbot - Plymouth section to improve acceleration and reduce maintenance on the 802s. I suspect standing starts in either direction at Totnes on hot summer days put some strain on the diesel engines. Probably still a difficult sell to the DfT / Treasury.

Having some moderate battery storage and boost capability onboard in a hybrid configuration might be useful for such fairly short bursts of strenuous activity, supplementing and protecting the engine, and capturing braking energy when descending hills.

 

[Irascible]

The route is at least paralleled by a section of the national grid.

This section of railway is one time Churchward did us a dis-service, the GWR might have rebuilt it if he hadn't mentioned he could build something to cope...

 

[dk1]

2hrs 51m to Plymouth.
There’s a train from June with a near on clean path that matches the OP’s stopping pattern!

Realtime Trains | 1203 London Paddington to Penzance | 12/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1203 departure from London Paddington to Penzance on 12/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

With a 12:06 relief to Plymouth I have used the 12:03 many many times and this new schedule is to be welcomed. It has often been reported to be carrying well in excess of a thousand passengers after Reading. Interesting that it’ll PU only at St.Davids.

Saturdays used to see a few trains timetabled fast to Plymouth, usually Newquay services. Was even some XC trains that ran fast Bristol to Torquay too.

 

[irish_rail]

Would electrification bring anything to the party - the 80Xs seem very sluggish compared to HSTs on the South Devon banks?

Not massively, except for when a train does stop at Totnes, would soon be back up to linepseed, but certainly on a non stop run from Exeter to Plymouth it wouldn't make much difference.

Interesting, I asked about that before & was informed it'd save very little - how much do you think you'd actually get? Not stopping at either Taunton & Tiverton is not a great service, they're both railheads for a vast area which does admittedly overlap. Back when we lived in Tiverton we'd go to Taunton if there wasn't a train calling at either Jct or Parkway in the right timeframe.

I reckon it saves a minute in braking, two minutes for the station stop, and then you don't get back to 60mph for about 5 minutes (roughly) once departed (HSTs where quicker). My maths isn't good enough to calculate how much time is lost by being generally at around 0 to 40ish mph for those 5 minutes or so departing Totnes, but I reckon in total stopping at Totnes adds around about 5 or 6 minutes to the schedule.

 

[hexagon789]

2hrs 51m to Plymouth.
There’s a train from June with a near on clean path that matches the OP’s stopping pattern!

Realtime Trains | 1203 London Paddington to Penzance | 12/06/2024

Real-time train running information for 1203 departure from London Paddington to Penzance on 12/06/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Take out the allowances and it is actually 2h45!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Take out the allowances and it is actually 2h45!

Yes but engineering allowance is mandatory to cover for any TSRs. In planning terms that is not allowed to be removed.

 

[hexagon789]

Yes but engineering allowance is mandatory to cover for any TSRs. In planning terms that is not allowed to be removed.

I appreciate that, but it shows what can at least be theoretically achieved with a completely clear run. Albeit only stopping to pick-up at Exeter though, rather than an open call.

 

[Jamesrob637]

That 12:03 looks good. Bet there won't be too many Advances on it.

 

[irish_rail]

That 12:03 looks good. Bet there won't be too many Advances on it.

Looking forward to driving it I must admit, will make a change from the usual all stations stuff Plymouth crews are usually lumbered with!