Parade and Marching Band over Level Crossing

[BrianW]

Probably 30 seconds or so for the band.

When you add in the parade as a whole, I'd guess at a good few minutes, but this is a good example of where the fact I'm only in any position of authority or responsibility for the band (rather than the whole parade) is a problem - I have no idea how many people or vehicles will be behind us!

Estimating it based off our remembrance day parade (which doesn't go over any level crossings!) and it would be over 5 mins to clear a section of road the same size as this crossing.

Whether this summer gala has more people or fewer than remembrance day is something I just don't know at this stage.

You'll never know, and need to expect the unexpected.
In addition to the band there will be your 'supporters', folk with strollers, wheelchairs, cameraphones, distractions.
A ship has one Captain, and everyone knows their place.
I feel for you. Stay safe, boringly so if need be.

 

[alxndr]

I'm planning on seeing if I can get one of the band's supporters to act as a marshal, and phone from the crossing phone for permission, then signal to the drummer whether or not we're marching on, or stopping until permission is granted.

This sounds like a sensible plan, although if you can engage with NR that would be even better.

Also worth bearing in mind that although using the level crossing phone is most ideal as it makes clear to the signaller where you are phoning from, the audio is often quieter than most people are accustomed to these days. It may be worth advising the Marshall to save the telephone number in their mobile to be able to quickly deal with the possibility that they cannot hear the signaller clearly over the noise of the parade. The contact details and crossing name should be listed inside the phones.

Definitely use the crossing phone in the first instance to avoid confusion or concern that you’re not where you say you are, but be ready for them to possibly need to say “sorry signaller, I can’t hear you, I’ll call you back on another line… hello signaller it’s Joe Bloggs calling you back from x crossing.” Better to have a back up plan than struggle to hear and misunderstand.

 

[Bill57p9]

Asked my other half this one as she organises military parades. Her answer was to avoid if at all possible and if not possible, liaise with Network Rail (or other railway if applicable) well in advance.

There should be somebody in charge of organising the parade, and the onus is on them to consider all this in the planning. Obviously asking the parade organiser wouldn't hurt....

 

[norbitonflyer]

Do you know what line it is that you’ll be crossing?

See post no 8. It's the Northumberland Line.
I seem to recall the Highway Code has something to say about marching groups, but don't recall if level crossings (or indeed other situations controlled by automatic traffic signals) are covered.

 

[LondonExile]

See post no 8. It's the Northumberland Line.
I seem to recall the Highway Code has something to say about marching groups, but don't recall if level crossings (or indeed other situations controlled by automatic traffic signals) are covered.

Yes, Northumberland line, specifically the A190 crossing in Seghill.

Regarding Highway code, there is something in there about organised pedestrians, but I don't think it's relevant as it's assuming risks around road traffic and the A190 will be closed during the parade.

That and I understand that the parade has vehicles to the rear, so not possible or sensible to stick to the pavements, which is the advice in the Highway Code I could find.

The road aspects of this I'm happy with, not least because marching the band down closed roads is something we have plenty of experience with. It's the level crossing which changes things a bit, but I think we have a reasonable plan now.

 

[King Lazy]

One thing I’d add that I don’t think has been mentioned.

Calling the signaller for permission is the safest thing to do but be aware it could result in waiting some time. I don’t know the crossing in question but if there is a long signal section and the signaller has let a train in it’s quite possible the signaller may have to tell you to wait until they are certain the train has cleared the crossing and the train may be 5-10 mins or more away.

I know of some (user worked) crossings where it could be possible that you might have to wait 15-20 mins and I know of an automatic crossing in a 7 minute section.

If a train enters a long section before you call and then fails before the crossing and a delay is occurred contacting the signaller (Radio failure for example) then the signaller would not know if the train had crossed or not or was moving it not and couldn’t risk giving a yes.

I assume a long delay would rather spoil the parade.

Without being a legal expert I imagine the drivers of each float would be responsible for themselves.

It would definitely be best to contact Network Rail for advice. It could even be that BTP could assist if they have resources available just as local police help with traffic on remembrance parades.

 

[dcsprior]

I presume there's a process which has been gone through to arrange the road closure. I would very much hope that as part of that the council or other authority who was approving that would at least highlight the need to speak to Network Rail or similar (and at best, would liaise on their behalf).

 

[LondonExile]

One thing I’d add that I don’t think has been mentioned.

Calling the signaller for permission is the safest thing to do but be aware it could result in waiting some time. I don’t know the crossing in question but if there is a long signal section and the signaller has let a train in it’s quite possible the signaller may have to tell you to wait until they are certain the train has cleared the crossing and the train may be 5-10 mins or more away.

I know of some (user worked) crossings where it could be possible that you might have to wait 15-20 mins and I know of an automatic crossing in a 7 minute section.

If a train enters a long section before you call and then fails before the crossing and a delay is occurred contacting the signaller (Radio failure for example) then the signaller would not know if the train had crossed or not or was moving it not and couldn’t risk giving a yes.

I assume a long delay would rather spoil the parade.

Without being a legal expert I imagine the drivers of each float would be responsible for themselves.

It would definitely be best to contact Network Rail for advice. It could even be that BTP could assist if they have resources available just as local police help with traffic on remembrance parades.

Once I've spoken to the wider organisers of the parade I'll speak to NR. I don't want to embarrass them if it turns out they have detailed plans, but for some reason haven't shared them with us yet.

There's also the wider issue of 2025 onwards, as whilst I think this year it should be easy to get permission to cross slowly (as Realtime Trains currently shows no trains at all on the day in question, but does show freight the day before), next year with 4 trains an hour as I understand it, it may be a bit more disruptive to try and arrange this!

(Again, I've looked at RTT to try and see what the likelihood of the signaller asking us to halt is. I'm not going to rely on it for safety purposes as I absolutely know it isn't suitable for that!)

 

[etr221]

I would say that the prime people to be speaking to Network Rail are the parade organisers, who have a responsibility to get the whole parade across the crossing - ideally as a single block, they will be the ones to consider an interruption to its flow. And they should be appointing someone as crossing marshall for the day, to be speaking to the signaller as the parade approaches. You (the band) should impress your concerns upon them, and then consider how much you can rely on them (or not)...

 

[Gostav]

Marching band and level crossing?
Youtube throws this up :

This is a good example of a parade through a busy railway crossing, where have at least 4 or 5 pairs of stoppers per hour, and least 2 pairs of non-stop expresses. The leaders must be able to handle situations where the group will be split up, and police officers on duty at crossings to ensure the safety of parade participants. If they didn't, it would be enough to disrupt the busy Keihan Main Line.

There is no doubt that they were must communicated to the railway company and the police department in advance.

 

[swt_passenger]

Did this parade happen last year? With the Northumberland Line being in transition from sleepy backwater to a regular service, perhaps the parade route will have to be changed after this event. As discussed in the main Northumberland Line thread, the passenger service isn’t likely to have started by June, but it’s going to be operating next year.

What was easily possible with only a few freight trains a day might no longer be sensible with the barriers be8ng down 4 times per hour plus freight.

 

[zwk500]

Did this parade happen last year? With the Northumberland Line being in transition from sleepy backwater to a regular service, perhaps the parade route will have to be changed after this event. As discussed in the main Northumberland Line thread, the passenger service isn’t likely to have started by June, but it’s going to be operating next year.

What was easily possible with only a few freight trains a day might no longer be sensible with the barriers be8ng down 4 times per hour plus freight.

Tbf 4 movements an hour still leaves reasonably long gaps between services to get the parade across. The absolute worst case is if every train is 15 minutes apart, so you have a series of 10-13 minute breaks. But it might be that two trains cross reasonably close to the crossing and then there's a 20+ minute gap.

 

[LondonExile]

No idea about last year - the event that the parade is part of was on a date that the band was already booked elsewhere.

In 2022 there wasn't the large parade, just a very short march that didn't cross the railway line. 2021 and 2020 would have been off due to COVID and we're now outside of my time with the band, but I believe in 2019 and before they did take a parade this route, so from their point of view they're reverting to what they've done for a long time.

I agree from 2025 onwards it'll be a much busier line.

 

[Desiro123]

As someone who runs a marching band myself, I would do the following;
Cut off your music and march to a single tap as you approach the crossing,
Mark time when you get to the crossing
Either halt or carry on marking time until someone has contacted the signaller and assured you it is safe to cross
March over the crossing to a single tap
Start playing again once you are fully clear of the crossing

 

[norbitonflyer]

What do the military do if a marching column has to negotiate a level crossing?

Yes, Northumberland line, specifically the A190 crossing in Seghill.

Regarding Highway code, there is something in there about organised pedestrians, but I don't think it's relevant as it's assuming risks around road traffic and the A190 will be closed during the parade.

Now had a chance to check. Rules 5 and 34 respectively discuss marching columns and pedestrians at level crossings.

The Highway Code - Rules for pedestrians (1 to 35) - Guidance - GOV.UK

Rules for pedestrians, including general guidance, crossing the road, crossings, and situations needing extra care.

www.gov.uk

But not this specific situation. The principles of Rule 294 would seem to cover the situation. (Maybe someone should suggest the next revision should include human animals!)

The Highway Code - Road works, level crossings and tramways (288 to 307) - Guidance - GOV.UK

Rules for road works (including on motorways and other high-speed roads), level crossings and tramways.

www.gov.uk

 

[MotCO]

The signaller should then provide signal protection (put the signals to danger so a train can’t come while people are crossing) and then call the signaller back when everyone is clear of the crossing and trains can run normally

If a train is halted at the level crossing in these circumstances with at least 3 minutes or more for the parade to clear the crossing, would it be reasonable for the parade to break, the parade organisers to phone the signalman to say you have halted, and allow the train to pass? Then seek the signalman's permission to resume the parade.

 

[stuving]

Surely the primary requirement is obey rule 34 of the Highway Code.

Railway level crossings. You MUST NOT cross or pass a stop line when the red lights show, (including a red pedestrian figure). Also do not cross if an alarm is sounding or the barriers are being lowered. The tone of the alarm may change if another train is approaching. If there are no lights, alarms or barriers, stop, look both ways and listen before crossing. [What follows about tactile surfaces is irrelevant information.]

The Highway Code is not comprehensive where pedestrian are concerned, so it helps to look at the rule 293 for drivers, some parts of which do also apply:

Controlled Crossings. Most crossings have traffic light signals with a steady amber light, twin flashing red stop lights (see ‘Light signals controlling traffic’ and ‘Traffic signs’) and an audible alarm for pedestrians. They may have full, half or no barriers.

• You MUST always obey the flashing red stop lights.
• You MUST stop behind the white line across the road.
• Keep going if you have already crossed the white line when the amber light comes on.
• Do not reverse onto or over a controlled crossing.
• You MUST wait if a train goes by and the red lights continue to flash. This means another train will be passing soon.
• Only cross when the lights go off and barriers open.
• Never zig-zag around half-barriers, they lower automatically because a train is approaching.
• At crossings where there are no barriers, a train is approaching when the lights show.

Those should be applied to each individual, even if you turn up as a group in formation. If the alarm sounds when the group is partly over the entry white line then you split: those not over the line stop and those who are past it march on until well clear of the far side barrier.

Anything else is optional, for example marshalling so as to avoid this splitting, but stopping playing would help. It would certainly be advisable to close up and move to the left of the road, so your exit cannot be blocked by the far side barrier.

The idea of this approach is that safety does not depend on anything more that the standard rules. Marshalling is not essential for safety, though you might like to have it. I suspect marshalls may be quite important for the public walking with the parade, to make sure they behave sensibly.

 

[MotCO]

Those should be applied to each individual, even if you turn up as a group in formation. If the alarm sounds when the group is partly over the entry white line then you split: those not over the line stop and those who are past it march on until well clear of the far side barrier.

The other thing not mentioned so far is that if the parade is split because the barriers are starting to operate, then the first part of the parade must not stop until the rear marker has passed the crossing - we don't want to leave some of the parade stranded on the crossing!

 

[Gostav]

If a train is halted at the level crossing in these circumstances with at least 3 minutes or more for the parade to clear the crossing, would it be reasonable for the parade to break, the parade organisers to phone the signalman to say you have halted, and allow the train to pass? Then seek the signalman's permission to resume the parade.

I don't think you can ask to stop a train, that would cause a lot of trouble for the railway company. A sensible solution would be to inform the procession that if it cannot pass the crossing in one part, the parade should split up, the group in front should stop and wait until the group behind passes the crossing.

 

[dastocks]

Don't rely on the timetable. Railway accidents, at least back to the one that shortened the life of Charles Dickens, have been caused when people assume trains will only arrive when they are supposed to.

My understanding was that this particular line doesn't have a passenger service so there won't be a timetable, and one should definitely not be relying on other sources such as Realtime Trains or OpenTrainTimes. If nothing is scheduled to run for the period of the parade the safest and most convenient option may be for NR to arrange a temporary line closure. AIUI this is effectively what happens when the driver of a large or slow vehicle calls the signalbox; the nearest available signal(s) will be used to block any rail traffic until the crossing is confirmed to be clear.

 

[IanXC]

Definitely call the Network Rail Helpdesk yourself (or someone on your committee) 03457 11 41 41. "I'm calling about parade [details] and we wanted to check that the organisers have been in touch and the details [etc]".

Advise them of what's going on, the date, time, name, that you're calling on behalf of a marching band, contact details, and that you want the details passed to Network Rail Control for the area.

Much as I understand your point about not undermining the organisers, as I understand it, as a marching band you have special issues, and belt and braces is always a good approach.

 

[Lpf93]

If a train is halted at the level crossing in these circumstances with at least 3 minutes or more for the parade to clear the crossing, would it be reasonable for the parade to break, the parade organisers to phone the signalman to say you have halted, and allow the train to pass? Then seek the signalman's permission to resume the parade.

If you said to the signaller you need 5 minutes to cross but a train would be there within that time or close to that time they’d refuse you permission to cross until the train had gone by. Running the train is their priority

 

[SussexMan]

I realise that this query is about the individual marching band, but the overall parade organisers would be negligent if they do not consider the risks from and to spectators. People do the most stupid things and if it is a half barrier crossing, even more potential for disaster. My experience of carnivals is that some people choose to walk alongside and others will follow on behind the parade - often kids on bikes. I would suggest a minimum of four marshals (one at each corner) at the level crossing. We don't know how many children might be in the parade, or people with hearing or visual impairments. Potential recipe for disaster and I'm wondering what the event insurer has to say.

 

[Camberman]

As a former Chartered H&S Practitioner (CMIOSH qualified), I believe the organisers need to look at the HSE's "Hierarchy of controls" in respect of conducting suitable and sufficient risk assessments. These say:

Consider controls in the following order, with elimination being the most effective and PPE being the least effective:

Elimination – physically remove the hazard (in other words does the parade have to use the crossing?)
Substitution – replace the hazard (replace the hazard with something else - is there another route without crossings that could be used?)
Engineering controls – isolate people from the hazard (again, is there another route without crossings?) (liaison with the railway to ensure the crossing remains open for the duration of the parade?)
Administrative controls – change the way people work
PPE – protect the worker with equipment
(see https://www.hse.gov.uk/ppe/managing-risk-using-ppe.htm#:~:text=Hierarchy of controls,-PPE should be&text=Consider controls in the following,isolate people from the hazard)

 

[43066]

Elimination – physically remove the hazard (in other words does the parade have to use the crossing?)

This seems like an excellent suggestion!

 

[6Gman]

I realise that this query is about the individual marching band, but the overall parade organisers would be negligent if they do not consider the risks from and to spectators. People do the most stupid things and if it is a half barrier crossing, even more potential for disaster. My experience of carnivals is that some people choose to walk alongside and others will follow on behind the parade - often kids on bikes. I would suggest a minimum of four marshals (one at each corner) at the level crossing. We don't know how many children might be in the parade, or people with hearing or visual impairments. Potential recipe for disaster and I'm wondering what the event insurer has to say.

There's also the possibility of somebody thinking the railway crossing would be a good place to photograph/ video the procession ...

 

[rf_ioliver]

Marching band and level crossing?
Youtube throws this up :

Took me a while to find the level crossing bit --- good music though.

4m12 is a good place ... I could imagine that would send most Health and Safety people into apoplexy

 

[jfowkes]

Elimination – physically remove the hazard (in other words does the parade have to use the crossing?)

This seems like an excellent suggestion!

I think actual "elimination" here would mean convincing NR to replace the crossing with a bridge. It's probably a bit tight to get that done for next month though.

 

[43066]

I think actual "elimination" here would mean convincing NR to replace the crossing with a bridge. It's probably a bit tight to get that done for next month though.

Or just rerouting the parade…

 

[Ediswan]

4m12 is a good place ... I could imagine that would send most Health and Safety people into apoplexy

There do appear to be railway staff in attendance at the crossing, which suggests a plan was in place. The uniforms look right.