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Petition calling for continued investment in electrification

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The Ham

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Mod Note: Posts #1 - #15 were originally in this thread.

I've just enjoyed quite a few hours reading through this thread; very interesting.

I'd like to add a few thoughts/etc.

Firstly, a lot of the anger towards Grayling in the Derby/Nottingham area results from a video interview when he was canvassing for Amanda Salloway in the Derby North constituency during the 2017 general election; when asked, he specifically stated that the only way to guarantee the electrification of the MML was to vote Tory!

Secondly, costs of electrics v bi-modes. There was a very brief disagreement between Mark Spencer (Con, Sherwood) and Chris Williamson (Labour, Derby North) at the end of East Midlands edition of 'Sunday Politics' on 10th December 2017; Spencer said it was a waste of money, Williamson was all for it, arguing that when higher capital costs and maintenance costs of bi-modes were taken into account, electrification was the better option.

So I decided that I would try to see who was right; and over a 25 year period, Chris Williamson does seem to be on a “simple” cost comparison basis.

Based upon EMT's current fleet, I've assumed that the “new” fleet will comprise 242 vehicles formed into 19 x 9-car and 16 x 5-car sets; EMT currently has a mixture of 'Meridians' and sufficient HST trailers to form 12 x 8-car sets, giving a total of 239 vehicles (I've ignored the Grand Central sets from my calculations).

Using published contract values for the CAF built class 397s and the class 802 bi-modes for Hull Trains, the average cost per car is £400k more for each bi-mode; this equates to an additional capital cost of £96.8m for a fleet of 242 vehicles.

This isn't a great deal when compared against the declared saving of £1bn from cancellation of electrification, but the additional maintenance costs are something else altogether. There's a report on one website recording an analysis of the prices being paid for IEP maintenance over the 27 year life of that contract, and this has concluded that an extra £4m per car is being paid for bi-modes over electrics; this equates to roundly £148k per year, so for a fleet of 242 vehicles the extra maintenance cost equates to £900m over a 25 year project life.

Then there's usage charges; I've had to concoct some, as none have yet been published for electric/bi-mode IEPs or class 397s. By using charges available, I've assumed that a 9-car bi-mode running as a diesel will incur usage charges approximately 10% higher than a 9-car straight electric, and one running as an electric approximately 25% higher per mile (both of the electric rates include Network Rail's asset usage charge for the use of the 25kv AC overhead). I won't go into a lot of boring calculations and explanations about assumptions, methodology, etc, but I've estimated that additional usage charges to the tune of £24m will be incurred over 25 years.

Again, assumptions have had to be made regarding fuel v electricity; using various sources, I've estimated that, over a 25 year period and using current fuel prices, bi-modes will cost about £75m more than electrics. This is probably way off the mark, but it does give an indication as to how much more a bi-mode will cost.

The “sparks effect” is widely acknowledged, and reductions in journey times result in revenue growth; if you work to the basic assumption that electrification will result in just one extra Anytime First and one extra Anytime Standard return tickets being sold each day between each of Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Nottingham, East Midlands Parkway, Loughborough, Leicester and London, with an identical growth northbound to these destinations from London, using current ticket prices this equates to roundly £3m per annum. This again isn't substantial, but over 25 years it rises to £75m.

So adding all of these together, the additional cost of procuring/maintaining/operating bi-modes (and not earning extra revenue) is just over £1.17bn; 17% more than the claimed saving from cancelling electrification.

I tried to be conservative when calculating these extra costs. For example, I've used class 395 usage charges, but these have the greatest weight per metre of all EMUs running in GB and are mounted on 'H' framed bogies; if a MML electric was mounted on lightweight inside framed bogies, the usage charge could potentially drop considerably – a class 172 'Turbostar' usage charge is less than 60% of that for a class 170 one.

With access to more accurate figures, a better calculation would be possible; but this “rough-and-ready” estimate confirms that cancellation MAY be the worst option. Moreover, it hasn't included other costs which the split between electrics and bi-modes will cause; depot costs for maintenance of the EMUs south of Corby are an example.

Of course the main difference between electrification and bi-modes is that the cost of electrification is up-front and has to be born by government through a Network Rail grant, whereas most of the bi-mode additional costs are in the future and will be charged to TOCs; so - bearing in mind the Hansford review – couldn't a financing mechanism such as sale and leaseback be considered as an option for the electrification? The initial cost would still be borne by government, but the cost incurred would then be recovered by it through the sale of the OHL, and the leasing costs would be borne by Network Rail and recovered by them from TOCs through asset/track usage charges. However, this still leaves the costs of raising bridges, etc; could this be eliminated with “dead” sections through restricted areas? As trains are likely to be EMUs, is non-continuous electrification possible (remember, class 395s have two pantographs, and although they only usually run with one raised, could both be up and in contact with the overhead at somewhere like Leicester where an electrical supply is desirable when departing southbound)?

Can anyone please explain why bi-mode journey times and enhanced speeds haven't been discussed more in this thread?

From information published in 'Modern Railways' and 'Rail', we've seen that IEPs can't keep up with HSTs; they're quicker off the mark, but after a while a HST goes flying past. The fact that HSTs are inferior in performance to Meridians has been mentioned, but both can capitalise upon the enhanced speed limits for HSTs on the MML, and there are many of them; however, IEPs aren't listed in the Sectional Appendices as being able to take advantage of enhanced speeds marked for HSTs. This isn't really a problem on the GW main line as very few are marked for HSTs, but there are some for MUs; as IEPs aren't excluded from the MU category in the Sectional Appendices, I presume they can operate at the enhanced speeds so marked on the GW main line. Anyone have any knowledge about this?

Sorry to have rambled on!

Which is why after the announcement at the beginning of the week I've started a petition asking for "More investment for electrification after the statement about diesel trains."

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/212757/sponsors/new?token=Od1nHG2PaYwdzxAfvMTd
 
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The Ham

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Which is why after the announcement at the beginning of the week I've started a petition asking for "More investment for electrification after the statement about diesel trains."

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/212757/sponsors/new?token=Od1nHG2PaYwdzxAfvMTd

The petition has been published and therefore is now searchable, the updated link also takes you to the first page where you can read the description of what you are signing:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/212757
 

47802

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I'm certainly not signing it. I'm not in favour of any further electrification until it can be demonstrated that it can be delivered at reasonable cost, on time and within budget, and the country doesn't need a magic money tree to fund it.
 

Domh245

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I'm certainly not signing it. I'm not in favour of any further electrification until it can be demonstrated that it can be delivered at reasonable cost, on time and within budget, and the country doesn't need a magic money tree to fund it.

Of course, it is difficult to demonstrate that unless you've got electrification to do. Also, the petition isn't "electrify all of the railway", but "More investment for electrification after the statement about diesel trains"

You never know, that investment may help to turn up a cheaper way of doing electrification (ideally without it performing as a Mk3 V2)
 

The Ham

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I'm certainly not signing it. I'm not in favour of any further electrification until it can be demonstrated that it can be delivered at reasonable cost, on time and within budget, and the country doesn't need a magic money tree to fund it.

How else would you suggest that we (as a country) plan for reaching the government's possible goal of no more straight diesel trains post 2040?
 

HowardGWR

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I'm certainly not signing it. I'm not in favour of any further electrification until it can be demonstrated that it can be delivered at reasonable cost, on time and within budget, and the country doesn't need a magic money tree to fund it.
Where does the petition state that it should be delivered at unreasonable cost, not on time and not within budget? Where does it state that the country should have a magic money tree to fund electrification (forgetting HS2 for a moment :) )?
 

muddythefish

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I'm certainly not signing it. I'm not in favour of any further electrification until it can be demonstrated that it can be delivered at reasonable cost, on time and within budget, and the country doesn't need a magic money tree to fund it.

Silly post.
 

Chester1

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How else would you suggest that we (as a country) plan for reaching the government's possible goal of no more straight diesel trains post 2040?

Further electrification is needed to reach the target but it is certainly not the only way. Battery and hydrogen technology is advancing and LNG seems to be an option for freight trains. All have issues but there is time for them to develop.

Grayling discontinuatous electrification is a kop out for major projects but combined with most (or all), new EMUs having a battery it makes sense on many routes. Chester to Crewe has 30 (ish) bridges many of which are listed and / or necessary. Wiring every part of the route that does not require clearance works and leaving the rest would be much cheaper. Such a project could work for the MML but its not ideal. Hydrogen seems to be technically but not necessarily financially viable.
 

47802

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How else would you suggest that we (as a country) plan for reaching the government's possible goal of no more straight diesel trains post 2040?

Well for starters the idea is ridiculous which doesn't seem to take account of the fact that the life span of a Train is much longer than a Road vehicle for instance, plus my understanding was that's its an aspiration and certainly not law at present, and as for electrification it certainly shouldn't be at any cost , it needs to be cost effective and delivered on time and on budget. I find the cost overrun of GWR electrification to be utterly staggering I also find amazing as to why the whole of the Network Rail board and the project team wasn't sacked.

Or is it acceptable to you for the railway to P*** money away at any cost.
 

muddythefish

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Well for starters the idea is ridiculous which doesn't seem to take account of the fact that the life span of a Train is much longer than a Road vehicle for instance, plus my understanding was that's its an aspiration and certainly not law at present, and as for electrification it certainly shouldn't be at any cost , it needs to be cost effective and delivered on time and on budget. I find the cost overrun of GWR electrification to be utterly staggering I also find amazing as to why the whole of the Network Rail board and the project team wasn't sacked.

Or is it acceptable to you for the railway to P*** money away at any cost.


NR mismanagement isn't a reason why electrification should be reined in.

The DfT is happy to "P*** money away at any cost" on the road network.
 

Sod

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Signed. In ecological terms, how can we possibly justify the continued use of diesel-powered trains?
I cannot understand the political brou-haha to support the supposedly politically acceptable idea of bimode trainsets in place of proper electrification. The idea of lugging a whole tankful of diesel fuel + a clunky diesel engine around the network when a direct electricity supply could provide the vital pulse defies logic.
But the weakness of the electrification argument remains Network Rail's incapacity to install OHLE to budget: surely a bunch of solid electrical engineers could be trained to put up the knitting reliably and cost-effectively, moving from one project to the next and delivering quality provision at a reasonable cost?
 
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Domh245

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surely a bunch of solid electrical engineers could be trained to put up the knitting reliably and cost-effectively, moving from one project to the next and delivering quality provision at a reasonable cost?

You'd want some other engineers (mechanical and civil) to make sure that the wiring will behave properly and won't fall over, and you generally wouldn't have engineers (in the proper B/M/CEng sense) out doing the installation - but yes, a team who've built up the relevant experience working through a rolling program would be a sensible way to control cost
 

Railsigns

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You'd want some other engineers (mechanical and civil) to make sure that the wiring will behave properly and won't fall over

And a bunch of signalling engineers to make the signalling compatible with electrification.
 

47802

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NR mismanagement isn't a reason why electrification should be reined in.

The DfT is happy to "P*** money away at any cost" on the road network.

Of course it is what a ridiculous statement, NR or an alternative delivery organisation needs to sort the cost and delivery timescales out, also what are your examples of P*** money away on the road network, I think some people need to get their head around a couple of things.

1. Road Transport is the primary method of Transport in many parts of the country and is likely to remain so, unless Scotty beaming people up becomes a reality.

2. GW Electrification will have taken what 10 years from the time it was first approved to somewhere being close to finished minus a few bits so in the remaining 22 years to 2040 your simply not going to electrify the whole network in that period, so if you want rid of Diesels then you are going to have to come up with some other alternatives.
 

Domh245

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And a bunch of signalling engineers to make the signalling compatible with electrification.

True, although is it not the case at the moment that signalling is left with Network Rail to immunise, whilst it is an external team (eg Balfour Beatty or Volker) that do everything else with the electrification (Physical & Electrical)
 

Railsigns

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True, although is it not the case at the moment that signalling is left with Network Rail to immunise, whilst it is an external team (eg Balfour Beatty or Volker) that do everything else with the electrification (Physical & Electrical) [?]

Network Rail does use contractors for signalling work (design and installation), especially on large projects. As well as immunisation, track circuit bonding and signal sighting have to be considered. Electrification work may be preceded by complete resignalling in places where the existing signalling cannot easily be altered in preparation for electrification.
 

superkev

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Signed but perhaps like football manager's they need to bring in some foreign expertise as the UK seems to have been de-skilled by successive politicians.
K
 

deltic08

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Of course it is what a ridiculous statement, NR or an alternative delivery organisation needs to sort the cost and delivery timescales out, also what are your examples of P*** money away on the road network, I think some people need to get their head around a couple of things.

1. Road Transport is the primary method of Transport in many parts of the country and is likely to remain so, unless Scotty beaming people up becomes a reality.
And the biggest air polluter causing 50,000 premature deaths annually in the UK according to a recent WHO report. Is this acceptable?
What is your answer to that one?
 

superkev

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And the biggest air polluter causing 50,000 premature deaths annually in the UK according to a recent WHO report. Is this acceptable?
What is your answer to that one?
I suppose the answer would be electric cars against polluting ancient diesel trains hence the need to continue electrification.
K
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Signed but perhaps like football manager's they need to bring in some foreign expertise as the UK seems to have been de-skilled by successive politicians.
K

It is perhaps a little surprising that this idea has not been given much of an airing. A number of operating franchises are (part) owned by foreign state-owned railways. Given that these railways also have electrified routes it might be worth considering finding a way to get their knowledge and expertise involved on our network. From time to time attempts are made to benchmark our costs against those of other railways: perhaps the time has come to take things further with the infrastructure. DfT could pick a non-electrified route, or small network, that they wish to see wired and have the route removed from Network Rail's responsibility with some sort of franchising style tendering exercise to bring in another managing organisation. We might then at least find out just how inflated (or not) Network Rail's way of doing things really is.

I suppose the answer would be electric cars against polluting ancient diesel trains hence the need to continue electrification.
K

Looking at the big picture the most significant issue as regards the environmental damage caused by our need for mobility is the ways in which our electricity is generated in the first place. We are still heavily dependent on the burning of fossil fuels for this and with demand likely to come uncomfortably close to exceeding supply in the near future it's a debate that deserves a higher profile. The preferred short-term fix still seems to be to burn more gas but this is not sustainable over the long-term. Nuclear has certain attractions but cost isn't one of them. That leaves us with so-called renewables; Cameron once made a big song and dance about making this country a leader in such technologies but Brexit appears to have put this issue on to the political back-burner.
 

richieb1971

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The problem on our railways is more to do with the concentration of people moving to and from London. I'd rather the money be spent on cities in the midlands and up north and getting some of that business further north. That way you don't need everyone going in the same direction as it is now. Eventually, no matter what capacity improvements a railway will have, the population moving to London will just exceed it to crippling levels of absurdness.
 

squizzler

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I don't think this is the first time that there has been a petition calling for electrification. I had a gut feeling that a petition helped initiate the electrification programme in the first place. If so it has worked before and can work again!
 

yorksrob

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Perhaps the petition should suggest the sort of "rolling" electrification programme outlined on here, to make the best use of resources expertise.

Such a simple and logical idea, yet it never seems to reach the echelons of Whitehall and Government.

There are alternative options to "everything at once" and "none at all".
 

squizzler

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I really think you need a better worded petition. I just did a keyword search on that site for "railway" (to see what others might be live) and your petition did not appear because that word is not used. Fatal flaw, possibly? I also feel the whole thing could be much more snappy in its wording. Is it possible to change the description once it is live? Presuming it is not, I think it might be worth withdrawing this current petition to relaunch one whose wording can be agreed over the course of this thread.
 
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