Poole to London route validity for Rtn Portion of ticket

[WesternLancer]

Hi - would welcome info from forum members who know the answer on this.

I have the unused Return portion of a Super Off Peak Return Nottingham to Poole via London that I have not yet used. It's within validity date (I took the train south to Poole, picked up a car, drove north). I want to use the return portion on a different trip.

This trip would be: I would be travelling north from Lewes to Nottingham. I can see no problem with using the London to Nottingham portion of the ticket over valid routes north of London.

However

I am wondering if there is any route flexibility over the element of the ticket that would be from Poole to London - eg would that ticket be valid via Brighton or perhaps Gatwick Airport north to London? My thinking being I would then simply buy, say, a Lewes to Brighton Single ticket to get onto a valid route of my Poole to Nottingham ticket, meaning I did not have to purchase a Lewes to London new ticket.

I hope I have explained the scenario clearly!

Info / advice gratefully received.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

So, essentially, what you're asking is whether the return portion of a Super Off Peak ticket (Route ✠VIA LONDON) valid from Poole to Nottingham, but boarding at an intermediate station, can be used via Hove (or via Brighton or via Gatwick Airport) subject to any Mon-Fri time restrictions, together with the additional single ticket that's needed so that you can set out from Lewes?

 

[Haywain]

An appropriate route can be traced on maps LB+CW (or vice versa) which actually takes in Lewes as well. However, I would suggest that using that ticket from Lewes to Brighton before heading north might not be advisable as it looks rather like backtracking. Lewes to Haywards Heath and then north is absolutely fine.

 

[jfollows]

Brockenhurst (routeing point for Poole) to London is valid:

• CW+LB
• CW+LF
• CW+PD
• PD
• SW
• XR+RG
• XR+WX

on maps at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps

 

[WesternLancer]

So, essentially, what you're asking is whether the return portion of a Super Off Peak ticket (Route ✠VIA LONDON) valid from Poole to Nottingham, but boarding at an intermediate station, can be used via Hove (or via Brighton or via Gatwick Airport) subject to any Mon-Fri time restrictions, together with the additional single ticket that's needed so that you can set out from Lewes?

Yes, spot on. That is my query.

An appropriate route can be traced on maps LB+CW (or vice versa) which actually takes in Lewes as well. However, I would suggest that using that ticket from Lewes to Brighton before heading north might not be advisable as it looks rather like backtracking. Lewes to Haywards Heath and then north is absolutely fine.

Thanks Haywain. boarding at Lewes then going via Haywards Heath (to change to Thameslink for St Pancras or Kings Cross) would be very convenient for me.

I wonder how staff will react when checking the ticket. I can imagine at Brighton they might think 'perhaps this is possible' but I wonder if on boarding at Lewes they will be less keen esp if the barriers reject it.

 

[jfollows]

Which is why I would print off the routeing guide maps you're using and explain that it's a valid route according to the routeing guide and that you have the maps to show them; the likelihood is that they'll decline your generous offer and let you go on your way but even if not it will do no harm.

 

[30907]

Which is why I would print off the routeing guide maps you're using and explain that it's a valid route according to the routeing guide and that you have the maps to show them; the likelihood is that they'll decline your generous offer and let you go on your way but even if not it will do no harm.

Or you could be generous and buy a single from Lewes to Wivelsfield, and save any barrier issues.

 

[Haywain]

I wonder how staff will react when checking the ticket. I can imagine at Brighton they might think 'perhaps this is possible' but I wonder if on boarding at Lewes they will be less keen esp if the barriers reject it.

I'd expect raised eyebrows and would be very surprised if the ticket operated the barriers. However, the ticket is clearly valid so you shouldn't be buying another ticket and I wouldn't be printing maps out either. If doubt is expressed I'd be agreeing that it's surprising but politely explaining the reasoning.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'd expect raised eyebrows and would be very surprised if the ticket operated the barriers. However, the ticket is clearly valid so you shouldn't be buying another ticket and I wouldn't be printing maps out either. If doubt is expressed I'd be agreeing that it's surprising but politely explaining the reasoning.

That, of course, is the nub of the problem. If the OP's return portion ticket from Poole doesn't work the barriers at Lewes, they will quite likely need to be persuasive / assertive in order to be allowed through.

Computer says "no" and all that.

 

[crablab]

Or buy the ticket the gateline assert is required and save the negotiations about validity for later, via customer services.

 

[Hadders]

I can get journey planners to validate the route via Lewes. There is no requirement to purchase an additional ticket and I would not do so. If you are denied travel or are forced to purchase an additional ticket to prevent matters from escalating we will be more than happy to assist in the D&P section

 

[WesternLancer]

I can get journey planners to validate the route via Lewes. There is no requirement to purchase an additional ticket and I would not do so. If you are denied travel or are forced to purchase an additional ticket to prevent matters from escalating we will be more than happy to assist in the D&P section

Thanks Hadders. I'll try a journey planner to try and obtain a valid route (any tips on what to input?)

Thanks to others for suggestions. I have in fact printed the Routing Guide maps for LB and CW but the way they display does not seem to me to be such that a staff member not properly trained in the Guide would know how to understand them. I may be doing such staff a disservice (unless someone can post a screen grab of what does look very clear).

 

[Hadders]

Trainsplit validates the route if deselect split ticketing and put via Brighton and via Lewes. I also got Transpennine's Mixing Deck to validate it by putting in via Lewes.

 

[Graham H]

I understand the reason the OP is doing this but it does seem a really convoluted permitted route should someone actually want to go from Poole so although clearly its covered by routeing guides I wouldnt be at all surprised at a few raised eyebrows when presented with the ticket if the guy thought the OP really had come all the way from Poole. Having previously seen discussions where a minor deviation is not permitted, this one seems very flexible.
My own convoluted option I recently discovered is Emsworth to Guildford. Sensible route is to Havant and change there for the Portsmouth direct line. However it is also valid at the same price going via Barnham and changing at Gatwick airport/Redhill which is probably twice the distance and significantly longer so doesnt even fall into the 'oh dear I just missed the quicker train so will go the long way round instead of waiting for an hour' Interestingly unlike the Poole routing my example doesnt seem to cover the route via Hove or Brighton, it is via the Arun valley through Horsham. Any attempt to specify via Hove comes out as a much higher price.
Maybe its a south of England thing but there do seem to be opportunities for valid but illogical routes that can be used to someones advantage

 

[jfollows]

It might seem like a convoluted route but it's only a minor and logical addition to standard Southampton to London routes which have been valid for years via Portsmouth Direct, Mid Sussex and Hove and used by regular through train services.

 

[hermit]

A friend of mine thinking two tickets would be necessary for a Portsmouth - Lewes (break of journey) - Victoria journey was proactively advised by booking office staff that a normal Portsmouth - Victoria ticket would be valid.

 

[infobleep]

A friend of mine thinking two tickets would be necessary for a Portsmouth - Lewes (break of journey) - Victoria journey was proactively advised by booking office staff that a normal Portsmouth - Victoria ticket would be valid.

If I remember correctly, Haywards Heath to Brifhtin is not valid via Lewes but Haywards Heath to Lewes is valid via Hove and Brighton. The tickets were and may still be the same price.

I consider going to Beighton via Lewes as reasonable.

 

[jfollows]

If I remember correctly, Haywards Heath to Brifhtin is not valid via Lewes but Haywards Heath to Lewes is valid via Hove and Brighton. The tickets were and may still be the same price.

I consider going to Beighton via Lewes as reasonable.

Correct, map CW only Haywards Heath to Brighton


Haywards Heath to Lewes is map XE

You’re suggesting that XE be added to the maps for Haywards Heath to Brighton aren’t you (or substituted for CW)?

 

[WesternLancer]

Trainsplit validates the route if deselect split ticketing and put via Brighton and via Lewes. I also got Transpennine's Mixing Deck to validate it by putting in via Lewes.

Thanks Hadders and others for interesting and helpful posts.

I travelled on tuesday this week. Actually ended up starting my journey at Berwick (sussex) and decided to buy a single to Lewes, which I suspect was unneeded but it was a change of plan at short notice. Berwick is un barriered and no staff were on duty to speak to at the time and of course I thus had no need to deal with barriers at Lewes so no issues arose there in any case.

There were then no revenue checks on any trains (Southern or Thameslink) that I used so no discussion with staff in any case. At St Pancras - where of course as far as anyone might know I could have arrived from Waterloo or Waterloo East/London Bridge my ticket would not open the Thameslink exit barriers or the EMR barriers but staff glanced at the ticket and opened the gates.

So the issue of what staff may or may not have done south of the Thames when looking at my ticket was never put to the test and thus I can't report on what might have happened.

Thanks to forum members for advice here which certainly saved me money.

I understand the reason the OP is doing this but it does seem a really convoluted permitted route should someone actually want to go from Poole so although clearly its covered by routeing guides I wouldnt be at all surprised at a few raised eyebrows when presented with the ticket if the guy thought the OP really had come all the way from Poole. Having previously seen discussions where a minor deviation is not permitted, this one seems very flexible.
My own convoluted option I recently discovered is Emsworth to Guildford. Sensible route is to Havant and change there for the Portsmouth direct line. However it is also valid at the same price going via Barnham and changing at Gatwick airport/Redhill which is probably twice the distance and significantly longer so doesnt even fall into the 'oh dear I just missed the quicker train so will go the long way round instead of waiting for an hour' Interestingly unlike the Poole routing my example doesnt seem to cover the route via Hove or Brighton, it is via the Arun valley through Horsham. Any attempt to specify via Hove comes out as a much higher price.
Maybe its a south of England thing but there do seem to be opportunities for valid but illogical routes that can be used to someones advantage

Thanks - points well made. Certainly seems to permit an intersting circular journey!

It might seem like a convoluted route but it's only a minor and logical addition to standard Southampton to London routes which have been valid for years via Portsmouth Direct, Mid Sussex and Hove and used by regular through train services.

Point well made ref valid southampton - london through services. Thanks.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I travelled on tuesday this week. Actually ended up starting my journey at Berwick (sussex) and decided to buy a single to Lewes, which I suspect was unneeded but it was a change of plan at short notice. Berwick is un barriered and no staff were on duty to speak to at the time and of course I thus had no need to deal with barriers at Lewes so no issues arose there in any case.

There were then no revenue checks on any trains (Southern or Thameslink)...

Surely you'd always be needing a ticket from Berwick (Sussex) to Lewes if the latter station is where your return ticket from Poole becomes valid from ?

 

[fandroid]

I remember Barry Doe writing in Rail magazine some time ago that a weekly season ticket from Poole or Bournemouth or even Weymouth to London was equivalent to a mid-southern England Rover ticket, taking in Reading as well as Brighton.

 

[thedbdiboy]

People have confirmed it above but this one is easy to confirm in 'old money' so to speak as it was an acceptable 'reasonable' route pre-routeing guide, on the basis that the Poole - London section takes you through Southampton, from which there have always been two accepted corridors to London, via either the SW route or on SC services via the Coastway and then either the Arun Valley or Brighton main lines.

 

[WesternLancer]

People have confirmed it above but this one is easy to confirm in 'old money' so to speak as it was an acceptable 'reasonable' route pre-routeing guide, on the basis that the Poole - London section takes you through Southampton, from which there have always been two accepted corridors to London, via either the SW route or on SC services via the Coastway and then either the Arun Valley or Brighton main lines.

Yes, thanks - but the issue would be if east of Brighton was permitted, which it seemed from replies up thread it indeed was. I didn't double check how far east as I was only intending to commence journey (at the time of my post) to be as far east as Lewes.

Surely you'd always be needing a ticket from Berwick (Sussex) to Lewes if the latter station is where your return ticket from Poole becomes valid from ?

Well, that was why I err'd on side of caution and bought Berwick - Lewes single ticket. But this again relates to how far east of Brighton I had validity - and circs conspired such that at that point I was offered a lift to Berwick station at short notice and had no internet access to double check the map links given to me above I also err'd on the side of caution.

I assume that would be map CW as detailed by @Haywain in helpful post #3

from here:

Routeing Maps | data.atoc.org

 

[thedbdiboy]

Yes, thanks - but the issue would be if east of Brighton was permitted, which it seemed from replies up thread it indeed was. I didn't double check how far east as I was only intending to commence journey (at the time of my post) to be as far east as Lewes.

Brighton to London was always valid via Lewes as well - Lewes and Brighton were prices to a common point, so your purchase was a sensible one

 

[WesternLancer]

Brighton to London was always valid via Lewes as well - Lewes and Brighton were prices to a common point, so your purchase was a sensible one

Many thanks - that makes sense. Appreciate your posts.

And also thanks to everyone else who has pitched in on this - most kind.

 

[Nottingham59]

There were then no revenue checks on any trains (Southern or Thameslink) that I used so no discussion with staff in any case.

Not relevant now, but if you did the same again, it might be worth having some paperwork with you that showed you took a car on the first return trip. To head off any question of using the return portion twice.

 

[Wolfie]

Not relevant now, but if you did the same again, it might be worth having some paperwork with you that showed you took a car on the first return trip. To head off any question of using the return portion twice.

Not sure how you'd prove that. At the weekend I used the return part of a return ticket bought for a journey where l'd also got a lift back. Admittedly there were no route quirks in my journey but also absolutely no issues.

 

[WesternLancer]

Not relevant now, but if you did the same again, it might be worth having some paperwork with you that showed you took a car on the first return trip. To head off any question of using the return portion twice.

Depressing that it might come to that really, but I know what you mean. I'm not sure what paperwork I'd actually have (I wasn't buying the car for example, but in this instance was picking it up for a relative who had been taken into hospital away from home and you don't get a receipt for that) - I guess I might have bought petrol en route and might have kept a receipt. I think in reality I'd be politely assertive and inform any one who accused me of using the ticket more than once that they would have to prove I had in fact done that.

Mind you, with the knowledge I have now gained on the routing guide from members of this forum I might have been simply able to bamboozle someone with that

 

[Hadders]

It's not necessary to carry copies of the Routeing Guide or proof that you've made part of a journey using another method. If a member of staff is convinced that a ticket isn't valid then there isn't normally anything that will persuade them otherwise.

In the event of being challenged I would co-operate and give details. Accept a Penalty Fare if one is offered (becuae a properly made appeal means the ,atter can't be prosecuted), and as a last resort pay what you're asked to do so under duress (and by credit card if possible). Write notes about what has happened, exactly which train, staff members name etc.

Once the journey has finished send a complaint to the relevent train company. We will be happy to proof read any such letter and I'm sure if the ticket was purchased through the forum's ticketing site appropriate people would be available to assist as well.

 

[WesternLancer]

It's not necessary to carry copies of the Routeing Guide or proof that you've made part of a journey using another method. If a member of staff is convinced that a ticket isn't valid then there isn't normally anything that will persuade them otherwise.

In the event of being challenged I would co-operate and give details. Accept a Penalty Fare if one is offered (becuae a properly made appeal means the ,atter can't be prosecuted), and as a last resort pay what you're asked to do so under duress (and by credit card if possible). Write notes about what has happened, exactly which train, staff members name etc.

Once the journey has finished send a complaint to the relevent train company. We will be happy to proof read any such letter and I'm sure if the ticket was purchased through the forum's ticketing site appropriate people would be available to assist as well.

Good, clear advice Hadders. Thanks.