Poor pay offer to send GWR and LNER trains off the rails

[glasgowniteowl]

8 cross country and 2 transpennine departures or arrivals either fully or part cancelled as a result of action at craigentinney at Edinburgh today, didn't seem to affect lner

 

[800001]

There has been an impact as there’s been a couple of short forms on the Edinburgh route today with advance ticket restrictions lifted on the services in question.
Unsure about the Leeds route.

That’s not to do with the strike action. 1 x 5 car out working 1S10 and 1E20.

 

[manmikey]

When a dispute starts with the premise that a higher offer than many other people around got or could hope for is "poor", then yes some people might question it. And it is probably worth remembering at this point that companies tend to pass on their costs to the end users. So if, for example Hitachi staff got a well above inflation pay rise, that would be passed onto the customers, in this case the TOCs or leasing companies. They would then eventually pass the cost onto the end users, us poor schmucks that still use the railways. Which is why sometimes people question these disputes.

Quite honestly if the industry wants better pay, then give us a better product and we might even be willing to pay for it..

I wonder what industry the author of this quote works or has worked in? is it an industry that has increased costs due to inflation and paying staff payrise? Does that industry not also pass those costs on to it's customers? Did they sweeten the dial by making the product or service better?
I wonder who the poor schmucks are that have to pay those increasesed prices of that industry? be it rail or any other industry. We have all had to accept shocking increases in the cost of living recently as everything we need or want has gone up. In singling out the rail industry staff as villains for wanting a payrise that just about equals inflation is disappointing

 

[whoosh]

I am just a regular user of the railway who is getting increasingly fed up of the various parts of the industry that think they deserve so much more than everyone else, yet seem to manage to deliver a worsening product. Now I realise that is a controversial point of view, but as a user of the product it is exactly how I feel, and I suspect I'm not alone especially given that the industry has had to be bailed out time and again by the taxpayers.


When a dispute starts with the premise that a higher offer than many other people around got or could hope for is "poor", then yes some people might question it. And it is probably worth remembering at this point that companies tend to pass on their costs to the end users. So if, for example Hitachi staff got a well above inflation pay rise, that would be passed onto the customers, in this case the TOCs or leasing companies. They would then eventually pass the cost onto the end users, us poor schmucks that still use the railways. Which is why sometimes people question these disputes.

Quite honestly if the industry wants better pay, then give us a better product and we might even be willing to pay for it..

https://twitter.com/RMTunion/status/1751512550808641939?s=20

Last year, Hitachi Rail paid out a whopping £260,179,000 in dividends. Yet their workers received a below-inflation pay offer. Today, those workers are striking for pay justice.

That's a lot of money isn't it? Just remember the FIVE FIGURE sums PER COACH that you are helping to pay for PER MONTH are going to the right people though eh?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Was that quoted dividend figure based on the global trading figures by Hitachi, not just their British operations?

 

[Bantamzen]

I wonder what industry the author of this quote works or has worked in? is it an industry that has increased costs due to inflation and paying staff payrise? Does that industry not also pass those costs on to it's customers? Did they sweeten the dial by making the product or service better?
I wonder who the poor schmucks are that have to pay those increasesed prices of that industry? be it rail or any other industry. We have all had to accept shocking increases in the cost of living recently as everything we need or want has gone up. In singling out the rail industry staff as villains for wanting a payrise that just about equals inflation is disappointing

The author, that being me, works in a publicly funded sector that has seen pay rises capped at CPI for a decade at least, and in real terms has seen many people receive below inflation rates. And the author, again me, is not just singling out rail workers, I've long said a lot of the pay demands post-covid were too inflated given that the country was barrelling towards a recession.

https://twitter.com/RMTunion/status/1751512550808641939?s=20

That's a lot of money isn't it? Just remember the FIVE FIGURE sums PER COACH that you are helping to pay for PER MONTH are going to the right people though eh?

Now are they dividends for Hitachi Rail, or for the wider Hitachi group? The Tweet doesn't include a link so some evidence is going to be needed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Now are they dividends for Hitachi Rail, or for the wider Hitachi group? The Tweet doesn't include a link so some evidence is going to be needed.

The query on dividends quoted was answered in the previous posting

 

[Bantamzen]

The query on dividends quoted was answered in the previous posting

The quote was a Tweet from the RMT with no source.

 

[kw12]

The quote was a Tweet from the RMT with no source.

The accounts for Hitachi Rail Limited are published at https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/05598549/filing-history

These show, on page 62, that for year ending 31 March 2023 the UK company paid the parent company Hitachi Ltd a dividend of £260,179,000, down from £437,916,000 the previous year.

These accounts also show that the company's profit before taxation was £104,982,000, so the dividend payment appears to be more than twice the company's profit.

 

[Snow1964]

Now are they dividends for Hitachi Rail, or for the wider Hitachi group? The Tweet doesn't include a link so some evidence is going to be needed.

It is also very selective to quote worldwide dividend figure as an absolute, but then a regional pay change as a percentage.

They chose not to specify what dividend change percentage was, for all I know could have been dividend cut. The cynic in me says as they didn't quote it, it was smaller % than pay offer.

And have to remember many companies have schemes to allow employees to buy own company shares (there are even income tax avoiding schemes for these), so some of those dividends could be going as extra income to employee shareholders.

Hitachi Rail UKs latest accounts show profit fell by 62% compared to 2022.

The staff costs (Accounts note 7) show pay amount went up 16% in a year (10.2% per employee), average employee earns £59,996 plus £5563 in company pension contributions (£162,288,000 + £15,049,000 company pension, for 2705 people)

For those that want to talk UK dividends, they are in note 8 to accounts. Agility trains West was £4,747,705 and Agility trains East £3,365,000

HITACHI RAIL LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

HITACHI RAIL LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

 

[Bantamzen]

The accounts for Hitachi Rail Limited are published at https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/05598549/filing-history

These show, on page 62, that for year ending 31 March 2023 the UK company paid the parent company Hitachi Ltd a dividend of £260,179,000, down from £437,916,000 the previous year.

These accounts also show that the company's profit before taxation was £104,982,000, so the dividend payment appears to be more than twice the company's profit.

Thanks, that at least confirms the numbers.

It is also very selective to quote worldwide dividend figure as an absolute, but then a regional pay change as a percentage.

They chose not to specify what dividend change percentage was, for all I know could have been dividend cut. The cynic in me says as they didn't quote it, it was smaller % than pay offer.

And have to remember many companies have schemes to allow employees to buy own company shares (there are even income tax avoiding schemes for these), so some of those dividends could be going as extra income to employee shareholders.

Hitachi Rail UKs latest accounts show profit fell by 62% compared to 2022.

The staff costs (Accounts note 7) show pay amount went up 16% in a year (10.2% per employee), average employee earns £59,996 plus £5563 in company pension contributions (£162,288,000 + £15,049,000 company pension, for 2705 people)

For those that want to talk UK dividends, they are in note 8 to accounts. Agility trains West was £4,747,705 and Agility trains East £3,365,000

HITACHI RAIL LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

HITACHI RAIL LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

And thanks too. It does add some interesting context, with profits and dividends falling but staff costs rising.

 

[Snow1964]

It does add some interesting context, with profits and dividends falling but staff costs rising.

Yes if average employee got 10.2% last year, gets pay package of £65+k then expecting another pay rise to match inflation rate a few months ago (but higher than current inflation) seems big ask.

I don't have anywhere near as much sympathy, as for some poorly paid hard working junior nurse.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The dividend payment vs profit earned is not unusual in this situation where you have a high level of retained earnings in the equity. You can have reduced profits (in this case because of the write down of Newton Aycliffe as well as a reduced level of disposals) and still reduce a high level of previously retained earnings. So you return some of that to your parent, in the form of a dividend.

Just so that everyone knows, the likes of GWR or LNER do not get pay a “pass through” on Hitachi pay rises. The inflation indices used are fixed in the contracts. The TOCs are not bothered how much Hitachi pay their staff except for the fact that they want trains from them on a daily basis.

For which, in the IET contract, they pay a five figure sum, per set, per day.

 

[43066]

Yes if average employee got 10.2% last year, gets pay package of £65+k then expecting another pay rise to match inflation rate a few months ago (but higher than current inflation) seems big ask.

I don't have anywhere near as much sympathy, as for some poorly paid hard working junior nurse.

Most RMT members involved won’t be on £65k, that figure appears to be a mean average across the whole workforce. So that’s just as “selective” as the RMT figures you’ve criticised.

And why should people on £60k + be expected to suffer a significant real terms pay cuts anymore than people earning a lot less? It appears from the notes to the accounts that Hitachi Rail has been perfectly happy to award their directors circa. £500,000 in additional remuneration between 2022 and 2023.

As for your last statement, does Hitachi Rail employ junior nurses? If not, I don’t really see the relevance .

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder what the reaction would be if Hitachi pulled out of Britain?

 

[thomalex]

I wonder what the reaction would be if Hitachi pulled out of Britain?

Maybe we'd finally get some reasonable seats

 

[dk1]

Maybe we'd finally get some reasonable seats

Wasn't that problem solely down to the DfT?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Wasn't that problem solely down to the DfT?

Yes, just look at the 700s on Thameslink built by Siemens, the Aventras built by Bombardier/Alstom.

 

[Kite159]

The accounts for Hitachi Rail Limited are published at https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/05598549/filing-history

These show, on page 62, that for year ending 31 March 2023 the UK company paid the parent company Hitachi Ltd a dividend of £260,179,000, down from £437,916,000 the previous year.

These accounts also show that the company's profit before taxation was £104,982,000, so the dividend payment appears to be more than twice the company's profit.

So more an accounting move to move money to the overall Hitachi group from the UK division, rather than a shareholder dividend in the more traditional sense. Wooden Dollars which most likely happens in other worldwide companies moving money between the various regional companies.

 

[irish_rail]

The dividend payment vs profit earned is not unusual in this situation where you have a high level of retained earnings in the equity. You can have reduced profits (in this case because of the write down of Newton Aycliffe as well as a reduced level of disposals) and still reduce a high level of previously retained earnings. So you return some of that to your parent, in the form of a dividend.

Just so that everyone knows, the likes of GWR or LNER do not get pay a “pass through” on Hitachi pay rises. The inflation indices used are fixed in the contracts. The TOCs are not bothered how much Hitachi pay their staff except for the fact that they want trains from them on a daily basis.

For which, in the IET contract, they pay a five figure sum, per set, per day.

Sorry, five figure sum, per set , per day??!!! Wow. No wonder they are attempting to make savings by not giving train drivers a payrise, and cheap seating was chosen. I'd always heard the IEP contract was expensive, but that's crazy!

 

[800001]

Sorry, five figure sum, per set , per day??!!! Wow. No wonder they are attempting to make savings by not giving train drivers a payrise, and cheap seating was chosen. I'd always heard the IEP contract was expensive, but that's crazy!

That five figure sum could be £10000, I used to hear to hire a charter set for a tour per day was in region of £10-13000.

Does anyone have the true figure that Gwr and LNER pay per set per day?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Yes, but it would be (instantly) career ending if anyone did post them here.

It’s a lowish (non identical) five figure sum for each type of 5 and 9 car.

 

[800001]

Yes, but it would be (instantly) career ending if anyone did post them here.

It’s a lowish (non identical) five figure sum for each type of 5 and 9 car.

Ah, thought may of been something hidden in accounts that are publicly available.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What percentage of the Hitachi global financial figure emanates from their operations in Britain?

 

[kw12]

Ah, thought may of been something hidden in accounts that are publicly available.

The annual report published for Agility Trains East Limited for the year ending 31 March 2023 is here

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/07930598/filing-history

This shows that the company had an annual income of £182.6 million for supplying the 65 sets to LNER. If the company supplied an average of 50 sets a day at an average of £10k per day per set supplied then that would correspond to the company's revenue for that year.

Of course, the actual average charge per set would be higher or lower depending on the contractual and achieved average numbers of sets supplied per day.

 

[Clarence Yard]

As well as the contract performance rebates. The income shown in the accounts is the net income from the TOC, not the gross of availability payments.

 

[FenMan]

What percentage of the Hitachi global financial figure emanates from their operations in Britain?

Chicken feed.

Hitachi's global revenue in 2022/23 was 10.88 trillion Japanese yen = £58 billion.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Chicken feed.

Hitachi's global revenue in 2022/23 was 10.88 trillion Japanese yen = £58 billion.

Perhaps the RMT Press Office had a sudden attack of "Selective Memory" when their missive was sent...

 

[dk1]

Yes, just look at the 700s on Thameslink built by Siemens, the Aventras built by Bombardier/Alstom.

There’s a pattern forming with everything the DfT have too much input in. They should solely cough up the cash & leave the detail to those who know what they are doing.

 

[YorkRailFan]

RMT members at Hitachi Rail will take 48 hours strike action at the end of the month over a pay dispute.

Workers who maintain rolling stock and the signalling system will take the stoppages between Thursday 29 February and March 2.
The depots that will be taking action are the London North Pole, Doncaster Train Maintenance and Bounds Green and Craigentinny Train Maintenance.
Hundreds of workers will join the action which follows a referendum where Hitachi workers rejected a pay offer from the private company.
Strike action will now be taking place on depots on the East Coast and West Coast mainlines.
RMT general secretary Mick Lynch said: "These highly skilled workers are not being paid what they deserve for the value they bring to Hitachi or the vital role they play on the railways.
"Senior management will have to go away and think again about what they are prepared to offer in order to reach a negotiated settlement in this dispute.
"Our members are determined to have an extended industrial campaign if necessary to get a decent pay rise."
END

Hitachi Rail strike spreads from East Coast to Great Western Mainline

RMT members at Hitachi Rail will take 48 hours strike action at the end of the month over a pay dispute.

www.rmt.org.uk

Same time as ASLEF's OT ban on LNER and Northern, will be a really bad few days for LNER. GWR will now also be affected, GWR was originally off the hook when Unite called off their strike earlier this year.