Post HS2 East Coast InterCity services (IRP November 2021) suggestion

[adrock1976]

Having noted that in the IRP report that upgrades would allow 8 tph between York and Newcastle, and with it looking likely that 2tph London Kings Cross - Leeds would still remain, what would a post HS2 (truncated form) ECML traditional InterCity service provision look like?

My suggestion is as follows:


From London Kings Cross

2tph Leeds, calling Doncaster and Wakefield Westgate only (reduced journey time to compensate the East Mids - Leeds section of HS2 not going ahead)

2tph Newcastle, calling York, Darlington, and Durham, with 1tph extending to Edinburgh Waverley calling Morpeth and Berwick-upon-Tweed. Further extended every 2 hours* to Glasgow Central calling Haymarket and Motherwell, taking back this section from ICXC which can then be curtailed at Edinburgh.

1tph Hull, calling Peterborough, Grantham, Retford, Doncaster, Selby, Howden, Brough, and Hull. Joint operation with ICEC and Hull Trains

1tph Sunderland, calling Peterborough, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe, Hartlepool, and Sunderland. Joint operation with ICEC and Grand Central

1tph Lincoln Central, calling Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, and Lincoln Central (or alternatively after Peterborough, Spalding and Lincoln Central as it is the shortest route between Peterborough and Lincoln). Extensions to Grimsby Town and/or Cleethorpes.

1tph Bradford Interchange, calling Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Doncaster, maybe Askern if reopened, Pontefract Monkhill, Wakefield Kirkgate (or alternatively direct to Kirkgate from Doncaster via Hare Park Junction), Mirfield, Brighouse, Halifax, Low Moor, and Bradford Interchange. Joint operation with ICEC and Grand Central.

The 2tph at Retford would allow interchange with the Sheffield - Worksop - Gainsborough - Lincoln trains when eventually doubled in frequency to every 30 minutes.

*The existing extensions to Inverness and Aberdeen would remain, which would be in the opposite hour to the Glasgow extensions.


Common section between York and Newcastle

2tph London KGX - Newcastle/Edinburgh/Glasgow as above (ICEC)

2tph Liverpool - Newcastle via HS2/Northern Powerhouse/Transpennine Route Upgrade, calling Warrington Bank Quay etc to York, then Darlington, then alternating 1tph each at Durham and Chester-le-Street, and Newcastle Central (TPE)

2tph Newcastle Central - Bradford Interchange, calling York, Leeds, Bradford Interchange? (TPE or ICEC?). This appears to be shown on a map in the report.

1tph Plymouth/Exeter St Davids - Edinburgh via Doncaster with the calling points beyond Sheffield being Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Alnmouth for Alnwick, then alternating every 2 hours between Reston and Dunbar, then Edinburgh Waverley. (ICXC)

Although not the whole route between York and Newcastle, the existing TPE Middlesbrough/Redcar/Saltburn would still run every 60 minutes diverging/converging to/from the mainline at Northallerton.

The above is what I have thought of at this moment in time, other suggestions and tweaks are acceptable as this is speculative.

 

[asw22]

On the ECML there are several opportunities available with the right investment / ambition
1. York to Northallerton increase to 140 or even 180 mph
2. Hitchin curve and Werrington junction can show how grade separation can increase capacity
3. Four tracking Huntingdon to Peterborough, maybe even increase to 180 mph (or 140 mph at least)
4. Newark grade separation
5. Horseshoe curve Doncaster to Leeds
6. Welwyn viaduct a likely bottleneck though

The ECML is fairly fast in sections so removal of bottlenecks could improve this further

 

[Peterthegreat]

Having noted that in the IRP report that upgrades would allow 8 tph between York and Newcastle, and with it looking likely that 2tph London Kings Cross - Leeds would still remain, what would a post HS2 (truncated form) ECML traditional InterCity service provision look like?

My suggestion is as follows:


From London Kings Cross

2tph Leeds, calling Doncaster and Wakefield Westgate only (reduced journey time to compensate the East Mids - Leeds section of HS2 not going ahead)

2tph Newcastle, calling York, Darlington, and Durham, with 1tph extending to Edinburgh Waverley calling Morpeth and Berwick-upon-Tweed. Further extended every 2 hours* to Glasgow Central calling Haymarket and Motherwell, taking back this section from ICXC which can then be curtailed at Edinburgh.

1tph Hull, calling Peterborough, Grantham, Retford, Doncaster, Selby, Howden, Brough, and Hull. Joint operation with ICEC and Hull Trains

1tph Sunderland, calling Peterborough, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe, Hartlepool, and Sunderland. Joint operation with ICEC and Grand Central

1tph Lincoln Central, calling Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, and Lincoln Central (or alternatively after Peterborough, Spalding and Lincoln Central as it is the shortest route between Peterborough and Lincoln). Extensions to Grimsby Town and/or Cleethorpes.

1tph Bradford Interchange, calling Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Doncaster, maybe Askern if reopened, Pontefract Monkhill, Wakefield Kirkgate (or alternatively direct to Kirkgate from Doncaster via Hare Park Junction), Mirfield, Brighouse, Halifax, Low Moor, and Bradford Interchange. Joint operation with ICEC and Grand Central.

The 2tph at Retford would allow interchange with the Sheffield - Worksop - Gainsborough - Lincoln trains when eventually doubled in frequency to every 30 minutes.

*The existing extensions to Inverness and Aberdeen would remain, which would be in the opposite hour to the Glasgow extensions.


Common section between York and Newcastle

2tph London KGX - Newcastle/Edinburgh/Glasgow as above (ICEC)

2tph Liverpool - Newcastle via HS2/Northern Powerhouse/Transpennine Route Upgrade, calling Warrington Bank Quay etc to York, then Darlington, then alternating 1tph each at Durham and Chester-le-Street, and Newcastle Central (TPE)

2tph Newcastle Central - Bradford Interchange, calling York, Leeds, Bradford Interchange? (TPE or ICEC?). This appears to be shown on a map in the report.

1tph Plymouth/Exeter St Davids - Edinburgh via Doncaster with the calling points beyond Sheffield being Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Alnmouth for Alnwick, then alternating every 2 hours between Reston and Dunbar, then Edinburgh Waverley. (ICXC)

Although not the whole route between York and Newcastle, the existing TPE Middlesbrough/Redcar/Saltburn would still run every 60 minutes diverging/converging to/from the mainline at Northallerton.

The above is what I have thought of at this moment in time, other suggestions and tweaks are acceptable as this is speculative.

No trains from Peterborough to Newcastle or beyond would not go down well!

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not sure taking all useful trains to Leeds from stations south of Doncaster away to replace them with an effectively worthless hourly train doing a tour of minor Yorkshire settlements is a particularly sensible plan.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought the recent ECML consultation had 3 tph Kings Cross to Newcastle of which two run to Edinburgh, and 0.5 tph to Middlesbrough?

i guess a significant question must be whether Middlesbrough and Sunderland trains that leave the ECML at the end of the 4 track section are part of the proposed 8 tph or not…

 

[TheBigD]

I thought the recent ECML consultation had 3 tph Kings Cross to Newcastle of which two run to Edinburgh, and 0.5 tph to Middlesbrough?

Yeah, 3tph to Newcastle.

Ex Kings Cross...
xx03 Edinburgh semi fast
xx30 Edinburgh fast
xx33 Newcastle semi fast/stopper
Extra train every 2 hours to York at 0745, 0945, 1145, 1345, 1545 and an 1845 to Middlesbrough.

 

[WiredUp]

On the ECML there are several opportunities available with the right investment / ambition
1. York to Northallerton increase to 140 or even 180 mph - 140mph yes (Skelton Junction - Croft-on-Tees), 180mph (or 186mph?) zero chance - it would be too expensive to rebuild all of the civils and OLE.
2. Hitchin curve and Werrington junction can show how grade separation can increase capacity - I agree, but much more will be needed though; the two track section from Stoke Tunnel to Doncaster is a mixture of stopping patterns for LDHS.
3. Four tracking Huntingdon to Peterborough, maybe even increase to 180 mph (or 140 mph at least) - Huntingdon to Connington yes at 140mph, then the geotechnical problems of Stilton Fen begin at Holme. Only a full rebuild of the Holme - Yaxley section on a piled raft would work.
4. Newark grade separation - Yours for around £100 - £150m, probably something similar would be needed at Northallerton.
5. Horseshoe curve Doncaster to Leeds - Highly probable, if not then an eastern entrance via Hambleton Junction would provide extra capacity.
6. Welwyn viaduct a likely bottleneck though - And will always stay that way; manageable using ETCS which can reduce headways through the two track section.

 

[David Bullock]

I’ve just found the Strategic Alternatives to HS2 document (which is the one that the IRP refers to for some stuff about ECML upgrades).

The proposal for their ‘option 1’ - which is an upgrade of the ECML suggests:

140mph for “most of the route”
Quadrupling at Welwyn North
Grade separation at Newark and Doncaster
A freight loop north of Newcastle
Darlington remodelling

The service spec that’s suggested following these upgrades is:

4tph Kings Cross to Leeds (2x non-stop, 2x calling Wakefield, Doncaster and Grantham/Peterborough)

2tph London-Edinburgh only calling at Newcastle.

1tph London-Edinburgh calling at York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Berwick/Alnmouth (1tp2h)

1tph London - Newcastle calling at York and Darlington

Lincoln/York service basically as now. With the proposed extension to Middlesborough

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/568309/strategic-alternatives-to-hs2-phase-2b-atkins-report.pdf#page21

 

[Peterthegreat]

I’ve just found the Strategic Alternatives to HS2 document (which is the one that the IRP refers to for some stuff about ECML upgrades).

The proposal for their ‘option 1’ - which is an upgrade of the ECML suggests:

140mph for “most of the route”
Quadrupling at Welwyn North
Grade separation at Newark and Doncaster
A freight loop north of Newcastle
Darlington remodelling

The service spec that’s suggested following these upgrades is:

4tph Kings Cross to Leeds (2x non-stop, 2x calling Wakefield, Doncaster and Grantham/Peterborough)

2tph London-Edinburgh only calling at Newcastle.

1tph London-Edinburgh calling at York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Berwick/Alnmouth (1tp2h)

1tph London - Newcastle calling at York and Darlington

Lincoln/York service basically as now. With the proposed extension to Middlesborough

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/568309/strategic-alternatives-to-hs2-phase-2b-atkins-report.pdf#page21

That won't go down very well. No trains from Peterborough, Newark or Doncaster to beyond York.

 

[David Bullock]

That won't go down very well. No trains from Peterborough, Newark or Doncaster to beyond York.

I think that’s pretty much the only way to achieve those frequencies between the cities. I think it’s funny that the IRP talks about how much better the ECML upgrade is for places like Newark and Stevenage when they both lose provision under these plans vs what they have today.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I think that’s pretty much the only way to achieve those frequencies between the cities. I think it’s funny that the IRP talks about how much better the ECML upgrade is for places like Newark and Stevenage when they both lose provision under these plans vs what they have today.

In other words an EXTREMELY London centric proposal.

 

[MattRat]

If HS2 connected to the ECML, you could run London - Birmingham - Leeds, and have London - Leeds direct passengers change over at Doncaster.

 

[adrock1976]

When Northern Powerhouse and HS2 (western arm) are complete, would it be acceptable to still have the 2tph Kings Cross - Leeds, both calling Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford* (interchange with the ex Manchester, Sheffield, & Lincolnshire downstairs for connections to Worksop, Sheffield, Gainsborough, Cleethorpes as that is intended to be doubled to every 30 minutes), Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, and Leeds?

The York/Newcastle/Edinburgh can run non stop Kings Cross - Doncaster or York, then call at stations north of there.

Also, the Lincoln Central train every second hour - could that run from Peterborough via Spalding as it is the shortest route, being as the dive under at Werrington Junction is now complete?

*Potential to be East Midland Region's version of West Midland Region's Tamworth, interchanging between lines that are perpendicular.

 

[David Bullock]

When Northern Powerhouse and HS2 (western arm) are complete, would it be acceptable to still have the 2tph Kings Cross - Leeds, both calling Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford* (interchange with the ex Manchester, Sheffield, & Lincolnshire downstairs for connections to Worksop, Sheffield, Gainsborough, Cleethorpes as that is intended to be doubled to every 30 minutes), Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, and Leeds?

The York/Newcastle/Edinburgh can run non stop Kings Cross - Doncaster or York, then call at stations north of there.

Also, the Lincoln Central train every second hour - could that run from Peterborough via Spalding as it is the shortest route, being as the dive under at Werrington Junction is now complete?

*Potential to be East Midland Region's version of West Midland Region's Tamworth, interchanging between lines that are perpendicular.

I don’t think it would be acceptable for the leeds trains to be slowed down, or for their frequency not to be increased. More all stations stoppers would be good, but if the train is full from Leeds then it wouldn’t be much use anyway (they are full from leeds for much of the day in 2021, let alone in 2040).

i think the only thing that might change that would be extension to 12 car Azumas but I doubt they will consider that once they realise how impractical it would be.

 

[HSTEd]

I think the only thing that might change that would be extension to 12 car Azumas but I doubt they will consider that once they realise how impractical it would be.

They could certainly make the 9-car sets up to 10-cars though.

 

[Blurb]

When Northern Powerhouse and HS2 (western arm) are complete, would it be acceptable to still have the 2tph Kings Cross - Leeds, both calling Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford* (interchange with the ex Manchester, Sheffield, & Lincolnshire downstairs for connections to Worksop, Sheffield, Gainsborough, Cleethorpes as that is intended to be doubled to every 30 minutes), Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, and Leeds?

The York/Newcastle/Edinburgh can run non stop Kings Cross - Doncaster or York, then call at stations north of there.

Also, the Lincoln Central train every second hour - could that run from Peterborough via Spalding as it is the shortest route, being as the dive under at Werrington Junction is now complete?

*Potential to be East Midland Region's version of West Midland Region's Tamworth, interchanging between lines that are perpendicular.

Sending the train to Lincoln via Spalding could be painfully slow. One of the purposes of the dive under was to direct more freight via that route, so a supposedly fast train London to/from Lincoln could quickly be stuck behind slow moving freight. Also issues like level crossings and signaling would need work to achieve sensible speeds. No point having a direct train to London if it is so slow that driving to Newark/Grantham/Peterborough to get train is quicker.

That won't go down very well. No trains from Peterborough, Newark or Doncaster to beyond York.

The proposal does actually have one Edinburgh train per hour stopping at Pboro (the one that also stops at York/Darlington/Newcastle etc) and also an every 2 hours Middlesbrough train via York stopping at Pboro.
However, the proposals/ideas appear very much based on meeting long distance needs rather than a more overall /holistic view of travel demand. Understanding that folk from Pboro, Cambridge, Norwich, Lincoln etc might travel somewhere other than London appears lacking.

 

[adrock1976]

I don’t think it would be acceptable for the leeds trains to be slowed down, or for their frequency not to be increased. More all stations stoppers would be good, but if the train is full from Leeds then it wouldn’t be much use anyway (they are full from leeds for much of the day in 2021, let alone in 2040).

i think the only thing that might change that would be extension to 12 car Azumas but I doubt they will consider that once they realise how impractical it would be.

The reason why I suggested that the Leeds trains call at all of the InterCity stations to Doncaster is that as well as providing one change at Doncaster for York and points north, is that for anybody who wants to travel between Leeds and London at breakneck speed have the option of Northern Powerhouse and HS2 via Manchester.

Sending the train to Lincoln via Spalding could be painfully slow. One of the purposes of the dive under was to direct more freight via that route, so a supposedly fast train London to/from Lincoln could quickly be stuck behind slow moving freight. Also issues like level crossings and signaling would need work to achieve sensible speeds. No point having a direct train to London if it is so slow that driving to Newark/Grantham/Peterborough to get train is quicker.


The proposal does actually have one Edinburgh train per hour stopping at Pboro (the one that also stops at York/Darlington/Newcastle etc) and also an every 2 hours Middlesbrough train via York stopping at Pboro.
However, the proposals/ideas appear very much based on meeting long distance needs rather than a more overall /holistic view of travel demand. Understanding that folk from Pboro, Cambridge, Norwich, Lincoln etc might travel somewhere other than London appears lacking.

I suggested sending the Lincoln train via Spalding as between Peterborough and Lincoln Central, the shortest route according to the Railmiles website is via Spalding and not Newark Northgate (difference of around 5 miles). Regarding shortest routes, it is I believe a long standing forum consensus that the shortest route is always valid. Although if it was sent via Spalding, there would be no direct trains from Grantham linking it to its closest city and county town (Lincoln).

I am currently working on attempting to try and fit the various calling patterns in, but so far I have become stuck in one or two places. Also, it is a bit of a pain in trying to fit the Johnny-come-lately First Lumo in as well (not sure if they will still be on the go post HS2 and NPR, as the highest speed route between Edinburgh and London will be via Preston and HS2).

For the East Coast route, the obvious infrastructure improvement apart from power supply upgrades is ideally quad track between Peterborough and Loversall Carr Junction/Doncaster area. This would allow overtaking of slower moving trains (according to the Sectional Appendix, the obvious places for looping are Peterborough, Grantham (although have to weave across southbound), Retford, and Loversall Carr Junction to Doncaster station platforms 4-8 via Decoy North Junction and Bridge Junction northbound).