Preston Bus Station

[Dentonian]

You are assuming everybody wants to go to the city centre. As I explained, people change at the rail station for a variety of destinations. Presumably "you wonder why people drive cars" is referring to the British and specifically the Greater Manchester experience. Buses go straight to the town centre in Greater Manchester so what I wrote doesn't even apply. It may be counter-intuitive to you and probably most people reading this, because they are so used to the British way of doing things, but places which follow the principles I described typically have superior public transport usage compared to Britain.

But again, public transport (especially bus) use is determined by much more than "interchange". Cost, accessibility, availibility, speed, reliability/punctuality (real or perceived), environment, image etc etc. Sorry, but I agree with 6Gman (possibly for the first time!) the vast majority of bus users do so to access necessities like employment, not to jump on a train somewhere. Yes, statistically, this might apply more to GM than elsewhere, but it still generally applies across most conurbations. Maybe, just maybe, somewhere like Merseyside is different because it had a much earlier (as in well before De-reg) established bus/train integration ethos, which goes with the geography that means you virtually have to go through Liverpool (or at least the outskirts of the city centre) to get from any one major town to any other.

 

[radamfi]

But again, public transport (especially bus) use is determined by much more than "interchange".

But interchange is essential if you aren't on a direct service. You simply can't serve everywhere by a direct bus. Places where people are prepared to interchange achieve the best modal share for public transport. If interchange is so unattractive, because of poor connections and/or expense, then people will only be prepared to use a direct bus.

I would recommend reading this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Transport-Suburbia-Beyond-Automobile-Age/dp/1844077403

which explains this in far more eloquent terms than I can. I wouldn't be surprised if organisations like TfGM have a copy of this book somewhere in their offices. I've seen it on recommended reading lists for transport MSc courses.

 

[Dentonian]

But interchange is essential if you aren't on a direct service. You simply can't serve everywhere by a direct bus. Places where people are prepared to interchange achieve the best modal share for public transport. If interchange is so unattractive, because of poor connections and/or expense, then people will only be prepared to use a direct bus.

I would recommend reading this:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Transport-Suburbia-Beyond-Automobile-Age/dp/1844077403

which explains this in far more eloquent terms than I can. I wouldn't be surprised if organisations like TfGM have a copy of this book somewhere in their offices. I've seen it on recommended reading lists for transport MSc courses.

Yes, but interchange in the UK sense (and certainly GM) is not about giving people without a direct bus more options, its about taking direct buses away from those that have had them for many decades. And making people change buses/modes on the edges of cities is the epitome of that. I've already pointed out the many negatives of people having to change from bus to train, rather than having a direct bus, but at least if the train section is long enough (say 10 miles or more) there is at least likely to be a time saving even allowing for connection time. But if you are changing vehicles on the edge of town/city, there will be a time penalty - probably a big one. You aren't one of those supporting this crazy idea of a bus terminus at Piccadilly Rail Station, presumably to (further) curtail Ashton Old Road & Hyde Road services and 192s, are you?

 

[radamfi]

Yes, but interchange in the UK sense (and certainly GM) is not about giving people without a direct bus more options, its about taking direct buses away from those that have had them for many decades.

Why focus on the people who currently have a direct bus? The vast majority of possible journeys within GM require an interchange now and always have required an interchange.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You aren't one of those supporting this crazy idea of a bus terminus at Piccadilly Rail Station, presumably to (further) curtail Ashton Old Road & Hyde Road services and 192s, are you?

I don't see any need for that personally as there's nothing wrong with them terminating at Piccadilly Gardens, but it would only add about 100 yards' walk if they did so is not exactly comparable to some of the cases that would cause real disadvantage, like say moving Chester bus station to the railway station.

Having said that, in towns and cities where the layout works for it, a "city centre spine" like in MK serving the railway station, the central business district and the shopping area, does work quite well. It does however require all your services to be "cross city", though, otherwise you have quite a lot of duplicated running. This wouldn't work so well in Preston overall because most of the services run north of the Ribble rather than south of it, but perhaps bizarrely the one main town service that does run in from that side of the river (the 12) doesn't actually go to the bus station at all, and instead runs a triangle around Fishergate, though the 89 from the west and the 13 do connect the railway station to the bus station.

http://www.prestonbus.co.uk/network.html

(I wonder if that's an old Fishwick's route, they didn't traditionally serve the bus station anyway)

 

[Andyh82]

I’m sure what this thread has now turned into is a repeat of an identical discussion only a short time ago, and indeed every time the position of a town’s bus station is mentioned.

 

[Busaholic]

An excellent write up, thanks for sharing. Being a Prestonian I watched the station being built. I still love it!!

Oh, just a heads up, the next Preston Guild is in 2032. Once every twenty years or as they say "Once every Preston Guild"

My maths askew! Don't know whether I'll make it to 2032, though. MIGHT just get up there if the tram demo line ever goes public.

 

[Busaholic]

(I wonder if that's an old Fishwick's route, they didn't traditionally serve the bus station anyway)

Fishwick's used the bus station - they had three(?) stands on the Ribble side, being the ones nearest to the exit road.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I’m sure what this thread has now turned into is a repeat of an identical discussion only a short time ago, and indeed every time the position of a town’s bus station is mentioned.

Hear hear! The same old hijacking of a thread.

The facts are:

When built, Preston bus station was in the area which was being developed, close to the main (and proposed) traffic objectives. The CoG of the city centre has changed in the last 20-30 years.

It was a massive statement of civic pride and ambition. That Brutalist architecture went out of fashion would be to ignore the significance of it - you may as well have torn down St Pancras or Sudbury Park tube.

It has now been listed and arguably there would be a challenge in how you use it for another purpose whilst working within that listing. Also, space was undoubtedly available elsewhere (i.e. near the station); that is now less so and so is at a premium.

It’s been a few years since I was last there (but since the last guild ) so would be good to revisit it. I confess I’ve always enjoyed the bonkers scale of the place since I first visited it (30 years ago )

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fishwick's used the bus station - they had three(?) stands on the Ribble side, being the ones nearest to the exit road.

I sit corrected...some of this is from childhood observation.

 

[chorleyjeff]

I like it as a thing - a monument to when large, confidence-oozing, impressive buildings (even if Brutalist) were used for bus stations rather than on-street stops.

But it's in a completely useless place. It's not near the railway station and it's not near the shops. Really, it would have made more sense to get rid (repurpose, as it's listed so it couldn't be demolished) and build new near the railway station which is at least at one end of the main shopping street.

The town had a different centre of gravity when it was built. The railway station was well off centre. St George's shopping centre was pretty much equal distance from the rail platforms and bus station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The town had a different centre of gravity when it was built. The railway station was well off centre. St George's shopping centre was pretty much equal distance from the rail platforms and bus station.

Yes, I realise that. My point more related to what should be done with it *now*.

It was probably the building of the Fishergate Centre that shifted it towards the railway station.

 

[AndyW33]

This wouldn't work so well in Preston overall because most of the services run north of the Ribble rather than south of it, but perhaps bizarrely the one main town service that does run in from that side of the river (the 12) doesn't actually go to the bus station at all, and instead runs a triangle around Fishergate, though the 89 from the west and the 13 do connect the railway station to the bus station.

http://www.prestonbus.co.uk/network.html

(I wonder if that's an old Fishwick's route, they didn't traditionally serve the bus station anyway)

"Traditional" is a relative term here, of course. Fishwick did serve the current bus station for the whole period that there was a single bus station they could serve - which is a period of 46 years before they closed down. While the Fishwick business started in 1907, they didn't serve Preston then and I think there was little to choose in the number of years they used the bus station and the number of years they ran to Preston without using a bus station at all.
Prior to 1969 there were multiple bus stations and on-street stands used by different operators.
Preston Bus route 12 is the descendent of PCT/Ribble joint route P5 Hutton; route 13 is a combination of Preston Corporation Transport's Broadgate route and the southern end of PCT/Ribble joint service P2 (though Stagecoach 3 could claim to be a P2 descendent as well)

The reason why there are so few Preston town services coming in up Fishergate Hill is because the Preston Borough boundary is the river Ribble, at the bottom of the hill. Ribble and Fishwick ran the services across the bridge, apart from the two PCT/Ribble joint routes.

 

[Karl]

I remember the green Fishwick's busses from Lostock Hall. The Pleasant Retreat bus stop was what our mother gave us the bus fare from to Preston North End on a Saturday. But, my brother and I realised that if we walked half way down Leyland Road we could save ourselves 'thruppence! It wasn't long before we were walkinking the whole 5 miles to Deepdale. We were crafty

 

[yorksrob]

When I was at Lancaster Uni in the 90's, our coach outings to 'Tokyo Jo's' fabled night spot used to park round there.

Memories....

 

[ian1944]

The COG argument against the position of the bus station assumes that shopping is the main determinant, but the bus and rail stations are pretty well equidistant from the university, a major site of activity/employment. I think that the epicentre of Preston life is distinctly northeast of the Fishergate Centre.

Re. reminiscing on busier days long gone, does anyone else remember Lower Mosley St BS in Manchester? A summer Saturday would see endless bus movements and huge crowds for NWRCC and Ribble long-distance services, including the Blackpool expresses already memtioned.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Nobody except for people obsessed with bus stations being next to railways stations would do that in Preston. The roads are totally inadequate and simply wouldn't be able to cope.

Even now after turning right from Butler Street into Fishergate has been banned, and enforced by cameras, Butler Street can still be an absolute nightmare. Add to the current situation a load of buses, many of which would turn right into Fishergate, and it would be gridlock.

 

[52290]

Prior to the opening of the present Preston Bus Station Fishwicks did have their own bus station at the bottom of Fox Street. This was used mainly by the 111 to Earnshaw Bridge, the 115 to Moss Side (via Croston Road) and the 117 to Earnshaw Bridge (via Bamber Bridge), although route numbers were not displayed on Fishwicks buses during the 1950's and 60's.
I think the 109 to Chorley used the Tithebarn Street bus station as this was a joint service with Ribble. Technically the 111 was also a joint service with Ribble but it only very occasionally brought a red bus into the Fox Street terminus.
Wow! A Fishwick liveried double decker has just passed my house on a college service although with the Tyrers name on it. Pauses to grab Kleenex.

 

[D60]

Fishergate Centre..?

There's a danger of overstating the extent to which the presence of the Fishergate Centre may have shifted the centre of gravity significantly towards the railway station.

Yes, it has provided a beneficial draw at one end of what is quite a lengthy main shopping street, and made Fishergate more usefully double-ended, and provided a boost to the fortunes of the lower end of Fishergate, and helped to provide a useful link from the railway station into the town's (city's) true retail centre.

The main centre of gravity of Preston's retail centre however remains St George's, Fishergate and Friargate around St George's, Market Square, the covered market and Indoor Market, which link through into the bus station.. and the important civic buildings that are such an integral part of Preston's town (city) centre.

The bus station was placed where it was to bring people as close as is practical with regard to the road network (and presumably with regard to existing travel patterns), to the retail and civic heart of the town (city).. with pedestrian links designed in, into and through the Indoor Market and the Guild Hall, through to Market Square/Friargate/Fishergate/St George's.. ie what was and remains the historic centre of the town (city).

For many who travel into Preston for everyday shopping purposes by bus, the locally-owned independent good value market traders selling local produce still to be found in the Indoor Market.. are more relevant and important to their everyday needs than the high value, high overheads, high rent, identikit corporate retailers who exist to extract value out of the town from places like the Fishergate Centre.

Preston is currently embracing a model where money to be spent/invested is better spent and re-invested locally, by favouring local providers and suppliers, thereby keeping and re-circulating money within the local economy... so surely the same reasoning applies with retail spend where it still can... and it still can in Preston which retains its Indoor Market next door to its Bus Station... which so many comparable towns have lost.

Yes, all of this was up for grabs with the proposed Bus Station and Indoor Market redevelopment. And it would still be a condoning of wholesale civic vandalism for anyone to be actively agitating for such an outcome.

The railway station was off-centre when built and remains off-centre now. Despite the presence of the Fishergate Centre. There is more to Preston than the Fishergate Centre, or even the railway station (!). And surely both are still served by buses anyway..!?

 

[Busaholic]

Prior to the opening of the present Preston Bus Station Fishwicks did have their own bus station at the bottom of Fox Street. This was used mainly by the 111 to Earnshaw Bridge, the 115 to Moss Side (via Croston Road) and the 117 to Earnshaw Bridge (via Bamber Bridge), although route numbers were not displayed on Fishwicks buses during the 1950's and 60's.
I think the 109 to Chorley used the Tithebarn Street bus station as this was a joint service with Ribble. Technically the 111 was also a joint service with Ribble but it only very occasionally brought a red bus into the Fox Street terminus.
Wow! A Fishwick liveried double decker has just passed my house on a college service although with the Tyrers name on it. Pauses to grab Kleenex.

My father-in-law's role at Ribble when I first met him in 1969 was to apportion revenue from their joint services to the various parties, which in the Preston area was mainly Preston Corporation and Fishwick, although I seem to recollect a company in Bamber Bridge may also have been involved. 'Joint services' were a subject I knew very little about, being from London Transport land, but they were a lot more involved than a cursory glance would indicate. I believe (and, please remember, this was a long time ago, it was an area entirely new to me, and I'm unfortunately not able to ask him anything any longer) that all the P prefixed services in Preston were 'joint', but no other services were. The P1 and P3 were the services best known to me, and the P1 passed my in-law's front door., and during the time I knew them were almost invariably Corp worked, first by dd PD2s, then by opo sd Panthers. I believe all journeys on the P1 were scheduled for Corp buses, but Ribble could be called upon in the event of a staff cut or late running, so their crew dds made appearances from time to time, almost always at M-F peak or Saturday shopping/football times. I never got to travel on one, to my regret. My father-in-law was very pleased the P1 was a joint service, because both he and his wife could travel free on them! I do remember that a couple of the P routes were entirely scheduled for Ribble buses (and I never saw a blue and cream bus on them) including the Penwortham route.
On the subject of where the bus station was situated, I would say it was entirely in the right place, assuming you didn't want to demolish Preston Market or the superlative Harris Museum and Library or, indeed, the court that has been the centrepiece of so many important trials over the years - absolutely no need for it to be located next to the railway station, either then or now.

 

[D60]

My father-in-law's role at Ribble when I first met him in 1969 was to apportion revenue from their joint services to the various parties, which in the Preston area was mainly Preston Corporation and Fishwick, although I seem to recollect a company in Bamber Bridge may also have been involved. 'Joint services' were a subject I knew very little about, being from London Transport land, but they were a lot more involved than a cursory glance would indicate. I believe (and, please remember, this was a long time ago, it was an area entirely new to me, and I'm unfortunately not able to ask him anything any longer) that all the P prefixed services in Preston were 'joint', but no other services were. The P1 and P3 were the services best known to me, and the P1 passed my in-law's front door., and during the time I knew them were almost invariably Corp worked, first by dd PD2s, then by opo sd Panthers. I believe all journeys on the P1 were scheduled for Corp buses, but Ribble could be called upon in the event of a staff cut or late running, so their crew dds made appearances from time to time, almost always at M-F peak or Saturday shopping/football times. I never got to travel on one, to my regret. My father-in-law was very pleased the P1 was a joint service, because both he and his wife could travel free on them! I do remember that a couple of the P routes were entirely scheduled for Ribble buses (and I never saw a blue and cream bus on them) including the Penwortham route.
On the subject of where the bus station was situated, I would say it was entirely in the right place, assuming you didn't want to demolish Preston Market or the superlative Harris Museum and Library or, indeed, the court that has been the centrepiece of so many important trials over the years - absolutely no need for it to be located next to the railway station, either then or now.

Bamber Bridge Motor Services? BBMS, with its small but noteworthy and handsomely liveried red/black/white fleet which apparently operated into Tithebarn Street... Not sure of the exact year in the 2nd half of the 60s, but I think by 1969 they had been absorbed into/taken over by Ribble, including the vehicles (a lowbridge Albion ex-demonstrator, maybe an Atlantean..? And maybe one or two others..?).. So probably not long before the advent of the new bus station..

 

[Karl]

(I've nothing to add, other than saying "what a great thread!" Thanks to the contributors.)

 

[enrag2000]

My father-in-law's role at Ribble when I first met him in 1969 was to apportion revenue from their joint services to the various parties, which in the Preston area was mainly Preston Corporation and Fishwick, although I seem to recollect a company in Bamber Bridge may also have been involved. 'Joint services' were a subject I knew very little about, being from London Transport land, but they were a lot more involved than a cursory glance would indicate. I believe (and, please remember, this was a long time ago, it was an area entirely new to me, and I'm unfortunately not able to ask him anything any longer) that all the P prefixed services in Preston were 'joint', but no other services were. The P1 and P3 were the services best known to me, and the P1 passed my in-law's front door., and during the time I knew them were almost invariably Corp worked, first by dd PD2s, then by opo sd Panthers. I believe all journeys on the P1 were scheduled for Corp buses, but Ribble could be called upon in the event of a staff cut or late running, so their crew dds made appearances from time to time, almost always at M-F peak or Saturday shopping/football times. I never got to travel on one, to my regret. My father-in-law was very pleased the P1 was a joint service, because both he and his wife could travel free on them! I do remember that a couple of the P routes were entirely scheduled for Ribble buses (and I never saw a blue and cream bus on them) including the Penwortham route.
On the subject of where the bus station was situated, I would say it was entirely in the right place, assuming you didn't want to demolish Preston Market or the superlative Harris Museum and Library or, indeed, the court that has been the centrepiece of so many important trials over the years - absolutely no need for it to be located next to the railway station, either then or now.

Ribble had all the workings on P2 (Penwortham Plough Inn-Lightfoot Lane) and the Corporation had all the workings on P5 (Hutton Anchor Inn-Gamull Lane). The P1/P3 (Frenchwood-Lea/Larches) was mainly Corporation worked but in order to balance mileage over time, one of the P1/P3 workings would be transferred to Ribble until everything was more in balance.
Was your father-in-law Jack Thompson? I spent a month with him learning al the details of the vast number of joint service agreements which Ribble had and which he accounted for. I still have a set of duplicated sheets which he handed to management trainees as we did the rounds.

 

[AndyW33]

In later years P4 Ingol was the preferred joint route for balancing mileage. As it was an out-and-back route from the Bus Station it was far easier to exchange individual journeys between the Blue and Red operators from time to time. Balancing on the other routes either involved exchanging a whole day's work or forcing cross-town passengers to change at the Bus Station.
Indeed using P4 meant that mileage imbalances no longer accrued once the backlog had been cleared, or at such a trivial level that nobody cared any more.

 

[Busaholic]

Ribble had all the workings on P2 (Penwortham Plough Inn-Lightfoot Lane) and the Corporation had all the workings on P5 (Hutton Anchor Inn-Gamull Lane). The P1/P3 (Frenchwood-Lea/Larches) was mainly Corporation worked but in order to balance mileage over time, one of the P1/P3 workings would be transferred to Ribble until everything was more in balance.
Was your father-in-law Jack Thompson? I spent a month with him learning al the details of the vast number of joint service agreements which Ribble had and which he accounted for. I still have a set of duplicated sheets which he handed to management trainees as we did the rounds.

No, he wasn't Jack Thompson. Vic (I won't give his surname, if you don't mind) was also responsible for liaising with the Traffic Commissioner on fares: unbelievable now to think that any alteration to fares on a route, even just one fare stage, had to be run by them and then approved! So, on joint services, there would have to be a joint application. Not much later, he was given responsibility for introducing computerisation to Ribble's operations, quite daunting for a man in his mid 50s with no background in the subject, but he became so immersed and proficient that he got sent to various NBC companies (mostly, but not exclusively, ex-BET ones) to help them introduce systems. I remember he spent weeks with Midland Red in Birmingham, and also Southdown, which I think he enjoyed more.

 

[Busaholic]

Bamber Bridge Motor Services? BBMS, with its small but noteworthy and handsomely liveried red/black/white fleet which apparently operated into Tithebarn Street... Not sure of the exact year in the 2nd half of the 60s, but I think by 1969 they had been absorbed into/taken over by Ribble, including the vehicles (a lowbridge Albion ex-demonstrator, maybe an Atlantean..? And maybe one or two others..?).. So probably not long before the advent of the new bus station..

I'm sure you're right about BBMS, and I remember seeing the Albion Lowlander, though never got to ride on it. Wasn't the Atlantean one of the original demonstrators, of which, very regrettably, none (or neither?) still exist?

 

[D60]

I'm sure you're right about BBMS, and I remember seeing the Albion Lowlander, though never got to ride on it. Wasn't the Atlantean one of the original demonstrators, of which, very regrettably, none (or neither?) still exist?

It seems that the year BBMS was taken over by Ribble was 1967. I have no personal recollections of any of this since I was only 3 in 1967. But poking about on the internet brings up some interesting snippets...

So yes, the Atlantean ex-demonstrator that BBMS had at that time was 661KTJ, a Weymann-bodied low-bridge PDR1 new in 1959, passing to BBMS in 1962 as their fleet no.8. This is said to be one of 4 Atlantean demonstrators of the period, being the only low-bridge example.
BBMS had another similar example, 2295TE, no.7 in the fleet.
The Albion Lowlander ex-demo was 747EUS.
Each of these is said to have passed into the Ribble fleet in 1967.
(A well-known, well-travelled BBMS survivor is preserved UTC672, an East Lancs-bodied AEC Regent III of 1955, no.4 in the fleet.)

Tithebarn Street has already been mentioned upthread as one of the various facilities replaced by the new Bus Station in 1969... but another location in close proximity was Starch House Square, home to Scout Motor Servuces Ltd, until takeover by Ribble.. but apparently also served by BBMS and Fishwick, and earlier still, Viking.

There are pics online showing these assorted operators at Starch House Square, from the 1930s through to clearance of the area for construction of the Inner Ring Road, Bus Station and Market Hall circa 1966/7.

With the new Bus Station not opening until 1969, there must presumably have been a period of disruption for both operators and passengers alike during this period..? Were facilities still available at Tithebarn Street while the area was being redeveloped? (I assume they must have).

 

[Busaholic]

It seems that the year BBMS was taken over by Ribble was 1967. I have no personal recollections of any of this since I was only 3 in 1967. But poking about on the internet brings up some interesting snippets...

So yes, the Atlantean ex-demonstrator that BBMS had at that time was 661KTJ, a Weymann-bodied low-bridge PDR1 new in 1959, passing to BBMS in 1962 as their fleet no.8. This is said to be one of 4 Atlantean demonstrators of the period, being the only low-bridge example.
BBMS had another similar example, 2295TE, no.7 in the fleet.
The Albion Lowlander ex-demo was 747EUS.
Each of these is said to have passed into the Ribble fleet in 1967.
(A well-known, well-travelled BBMS survivor is preserved UTC672, an East Lancs-bodied AEC Regent III of 1955, no.4 in the fleet.)

Tithebarn Street has already been mentioned upthread as one of the various facilities replaced by the new Bus Station in 1969... but another location in close proximity was Starch House Square, home to Scout Motor Servuces Ltd, until takeover by Ribble.. but apparently also served by BBMS and Fishwick, and earlier still, Viking.

There are pics online showing these assorted operators at Starch House Square, from the 1930s through to clearance of the area for construction of the Inner Ring Road, Bus Station and Market Hall circa 1966/7.

With the new Bus Station not opening until 1969, there must presumably have been a period of disruption for both operators and passengers alike during this period..? Were facilities still available at Tithebarn Street while the area was being redeveloped? (I assume they must have).

My first visit to Preston would have been mid/late September 1969, and I do remember my then girlfriend, now wife, not being sure where to go for the bus after we'd walked from the railway station. It was certainly a temporary stop amongst some demolished buildings within site of the soon-to-be-opened bus station, with which I could barely contain my excitement. My girlfriend was, and remains, unimpressed, not that she woulkd countenance its demolition!

 

[Ayman Ilham]

I hope they fit live depature board screens! Being the largest bus station in the UK (and possibly Europe), it certainly needs them! And also, it is often claimed to be the 2nd largest bus station in Europe - if that's so, what's the largest (#1)?

 

[Dentonian]

I hope they fit live depature board screens! Being the largest bus station in the UK (and possibly Europe), it certainly needs them! And also, it is often claimed to be the 2nd largest bus station in Europe - if that's so, what's the largest (#1)?

As the "new" bus station will only be about 60-70% of the capacity of the pre-development, I doubt it will still be anything like the 2nd largest in Europe