Proposal to price by distance travelled (rather than market based pricing)

[sheff1]

I'll also only compare return tickets, as most people wish to return.

The goes against a key premise of a mileage based system that returns are basically obsolete as they cost the same as two singles.

 

[mikeg]

Yorkie's prices look too good to be true under mileage based pricing... but that's probably because they are. 20p per mile is obviously too low and would require more subsidy. If we were to go for a revenue neutral based price, I suspect there would be more 'losers' (and the Esk Valley Line even more definitely would have to close)

I found a (very biased) source from a few years ago that suggests 28.5 pence per mile as the average. The pre-Beeching formula was 0.19 pence per mile accordig to Wikipedia - that's in today's money. Wow, railways really have gotten more expensive.

 

[swt_passenger]

If you priced by distance then it would likely calculated using the longest permitted route so it may end up more expensive then you expect it to be.

Either that or if people insisted that every route had to be accurately priced, every possible journey permutation would have to be repriced, and there'd be no need for the routeing of 'any permitted'.

There'd be no need for the routeing guide then, and you'd always have to specify your exact route before buying...

 

[LE Greys]

Yorkie's prices look too good to be true under mileage based pricing... but that's probably because they are. 20p per mile is obviously too low and would require more subsidy. If we were to go for a revenue neutral based price, I suspect there would be more 'losers' (and the Esk Valley Line even more definitely would have to close)

I found a source from a few years ago that suggests 28.5 pence per mile as the average.

1930s prices, where the 20p/mile figure comes from, were incredibly low, since they had been static right through the Victorian era. Referring to Victorian prices, 40p/mile would be more accurate.

 

[yorkie]

The goes against a key premise of a mileage based system that returns are basically obsolete as they cost the same as two singles.

To expand on that, the purpose of my comparison was that I would not be comparing the proposed "per mile" cost with the old SOS/CDS cost, which would be an unfair comparison because in the case of shorter distance journeys, the single fare is often only around 10p less than a return at present. In other words, the ludicrous prices for some singles today mean that I am forced to compare returns to provide a meaningful comparison.

I am pro-single based pricing, providing it is done by halving the return prices, and NOT by doubling the present single price, and also I would not accept it as an excuse to cause increases for people returning same day either.

First Great Western, Hull Trains and Grand Central, price their Off Peak Singles at acceptable rates, though not quite ideal. Virgin and East Coast also price their Off Peak Singles at very acceptable rates - but only when bought online as part of a return. The others rip us off for a single, quite frankly (unless doing very long journeys at peak time). The only true single leg pricing is on Oyster PAYG fares, and this is the way forward.

 

[radamfi]

Are there significant complaints from German/Dutch/Swiss passengers about their fare system and advocate introducing British style pricing?

 

[Deerfold]

Are there significant complaints from German/Dutch/Swiss passengers about their fare system and advocate introducing British style pricing?

Advance fares are becoming increasing common on the continent.

 

[radamfi]

I am pro-single based pricing, providing it is done by halving the return prices, and NOT by doubling the present single price, and also I would not accept it as an excuse to cause increases for people returning same day either.

They've done just that in the Netherlands, principally to accommodate the OV-Chipkaart smartcard, although the day return didn't give that much of a discount over two singles anyway.
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Advance fares are becoming increasing common on the continent.

Yes, but as I understand this thread is mainly about walk up tickets, which AFAIK in most of Europe, outside the UK and Ireland, are still priced by distance as they have been for a long time despite an increase in Advance type fares.

 

[Deerfold]

Don't really understand what the first point has to do with mileage based pricing..

To ensure you paid the right amount you advocated not buying returns. Thus increasing queues and stopping me jumping on a train 2 minutes after getting to the station.

If you miss your connection, the same situation would apply as now - continue on the first available train which would get you to your destination without penalty.

Even if you've paid for a shorter route? That's going to take a lot of checking delayed connections.

Engineering work is far more of a problem here than in most countries, in my experience, but if a train is diverted I would expect the non-diverted price to apply.

Even if you might have paid the higher price anyway - so some people pay less when there's engineering works on?

That does sound complicated.

I would not call the German rail system small and non-complex.

I'm afraid I don't know a lot about the German system. I'll have a look.
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Yes, but as I understand this thread is mainly about walk up tickets, which AFAIK in most of Europe, outside the UK and Ireland, are still priced by distance as they have been for a long time despite an increase in Advance type fares.

The OP didn't specify walk up tickets - they referred to the industry's fare structure. Surely advance tickets go against the spirit of a strict mileage-based system (perhaps unless there's the same number of advance tickets at the same discount on each train).

 

[radamfi]

I'm afraid I don't know a lot about the German system. I'll have a look.

I would recommend downloading the free DB European timetable 'offline' software, which has walk on fares for all German domestic routes, and some international connections.

http://www.bahn.de/p/view/buchung/k...01_D001_KIN_pos2-fahrplanbuchen-fpi2-ofp_LZ01
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The OP didn't specify walk up tickets - they referred to the industry's fare structure. Surely advance tickets go against the spirit of a strict mileage-based system (perhaps unless there's the same number of advance tickets at the same discount on each train).

I don't think many people would object to Advance fares as long as walk on fares are fairly and logically priced. German single fares may seem quite high but regular travellers can get 50% off with the Bahncard 50 so you just have to look at the full single fare to see how much a return would cost if you are comparing with Great Britain. No peak restrictions on regular fares, even with a Bahncard.

The main complication with the German system is that you pay more for using higher classes of trains (IC, EC or ICE). This does mean you can save money by taking local/regional trains as they parallel the fast trains throughout the country. The ultimate bargain being at the weekend when up to 5 people can travel together on all local/regional trains throughout the country for a mere €39 a day!

 

[pemma]

Why do you need period returns anyway? If we only have single tickets then it will be easier to mix-and-match in the most economical way.

Return fares are needed to legally give protection to the passenger. If the operator announces all services for the rest of the day are cancelled and you have a return portion of a ticket then the operator under EU law has to get you home another way or pay for you to stay in overnight accommodation. If you've not made the outward journey then they just have to refund you if they can't offer the advertised service and aren't obliged to refund, for instance, a bus fare you paid to get to the station. That also applies for buses, ferries and planes.

 

[yorkie]

The main complication with the German system is that you pay more for using higher classes of trains (IC, EC or ICE). This does mean you can save money by taking local/regional trains as they parallel the fast trains throughout the country. The ultimate bargain being at the weekend when up to 5 people can travel together on all local/regional trains throughout the country for a mere €39 a day!

I can't see that working here.

Would XC count as a higher class of train? If not, then York-Darlington would be cheap on XC but expensive on EC. If it does, then York-Leeds will be more expensive on XC but on that section of line where maximum speed is 100mph there will be no benefit over TPE.

Between Doncaster & Peterborough you'd be forced to pay the premium as there is no realistic alternative. And could Glasgow to Edinburgh cost more on XC than on FSR, a complete reversal of the present fares? And what about FGW HSTs in Cornwall - is the premium relaxed because line speeds are low, or does it literally apply to the train so you're stuffed and have to pay the higher fares on nearly all services, despite there being no benefit?

Or does the German system work on the basis of HS1/Not HS1, where differential fares only apply for the parts where there is a dedicated high speed line paralleling a 'classic' line? If so, we already have that (and the way it was done is absolutely awful)

 

[Old Timer]

I think a point most people are missing is that the mileage based system is just that, a mile based system. It allows a baseline to be established.

You can then move forward to the BR Selective Prices System, where high intensity routes had the price adjusted upwards to reflect the level of service and the demand.

This would also allow you to reduce prices on certain routes where it was seen that there needed to be a reduction for example the Whitby fare (I think was mentioned ?) or the Scottish example.

Now I agree that this does start to lead us towards a degree of "social" pricing but I see this as a good thing as it does allow the Government to clearly demonstrate the level at which it is supporting rural lines. In theory the money generated by the higher fares on the high volume key routes should allow the cross-subsidy of desireable but lesser used routes.

A fare table should be something like this :

Single - unrestricted
Return - unrestricted
Day return - valid after morning peak valid in evening peak
Evening return - valid after say 1800- 1900 for travel until last service and on overnight suburban services.
Weekend return valid after 0930 Fri until last service Monday
Period (17 day return) - for those two week holiday break, but allows the extra weekend if so desired. Valid outwards any day, but return cannot be made until Tuesday of the following week (i.e protects weekend return)

 

[radamfi]

Is there a high speed route in Germany where there isn't a parallel local service? Even if there is, having a parallel local service is overwhelmingly the norm. In general this does not apply in GB as the local service on higher speed lines is often provided by long distance services, such as on the ECML and Great Western. The nearest we get to the German system is on the WCML with LM providing a cheaper, slower alternative to Virgin.

I don't know for sure, but I believe the 'base' fare in Germany is the one without IC/EC/ICE services, with IC/EC/ICE supplements on top - it would be nice if someone could verify that.

I may also caveat that Germany has a similar 'problem' to GB is that they have special fare systems within their equivalent to PTE areas, meaning anomalies can occur if you cross these boundaries.

 

[sheff1]

To ensure you paid the right amount you advocated not buying returns. Thus increasing queues and stopping me jumping on a train 2 minutes after getting to the station.


Even if you've paid for a shorter route? That's going to take a lot of checking delayed connections.


Even if you might have paid the higher price anyway - so some people pay less when there's engineering works on?

That does sound complicated.

I really think you are overstating issues which would arise infrequently. They could all be addressed if a mileage based system were to be introduced. Don't worry though, as others have said, such a system will not happen here due to existing vested interests.

 

[pemma]

I can't see that working here.

The Spanish use the same model. Look at Algeciras-Granada (Medium Distance) and Algeciras-Madrid (Intercity.) Both services call at the popular town of Ronda, the latter is significantly more expensive but between Algeciras and Ronda the time saving is not that substantial despite one being express and one being a stopping service due to the windy mountain track. Therefore, what exists is an infrequent MD service that everyone uses to get between Algeciras and Ronda and an infrequent IC service that no-one uses to get between the two towns, when if tickets were interchangeable between the two services it would effectively be like an increase in frequency.

 

[dzug2]

The UK's rail fare structure - like so much about its rail industry - is a mess.

Rail fares should be on a pence-per-kilometre basis (perhaps with a reducing cost per kilometre as the length of journey increases). A return should cost twice as much as a single, and first class 50% more than second class.

I think we need a bit of justification of the 'should's. It's by no means self-evident.

As it stands it makes just as much sense as the US state (?city) that passed a law that pi=3. Sounds deceptively simple (its only merit), but totally unworkable

 

[sheff1]

I don't know for sure, but I believe the 'base' fare in Germany is the one without IC/EC/ICE services, with IC/EC/ICE supplements on top - it would be nice if someone could verify that.

That certainly used to be the case when the old paper timetable books were about. I have not downloaded the new electronic editions, but am not aware of any change.

 

[Deerfold]

The Spanish use the same model. Look at Algeciras-Granada (Medium Distance) and Algeciras-Madrid (Intercity.) Both services call at the popular town of Ronda, the latter is significantly more expensive but between Algeciras and Ronda the time saving is not that substantial despite one being express and one being a stopping service due to the windy mountain track. Therefore, what exists is an infrequent MD service that everyone uses to get between Algeciras and Ronda and an infrequent IC service that no-one uses to get between the two towns, when if tickets were interchangeable between the two services it would effectively be like an increase in frequency.

Would that be a bad thing? We have a daily extra EC service which we can use the same tickets on - and provides useful extra connections at Leeds.

 

[island]

Yes, but as I understand this thread is mainly about walk up tickets, which AFAIK in most of Europe, outside the UK and Ireland, are still priced by distance as they have been for a long time despite an increase in Advance type fares.

In Ireland, walk-up tickets are priced by distance, with three different rates depending on whether the journey is entirely in a metro area (lowest), mainly on single line track (middle), or mainly on double line track (highest).

There is also a five day return fare to go between day returns and month returns, and cheap day returns are not sold on Sundays.

 

[radamfi]

Irish walk on fares, like in GB, usually have little difference between singles and returns, or the return may be cheaper than a single. British peak singles are sometimes a lot less than peak returns and this gap has widened in recent years with the introduction of more Anytime Returns fares, but I haven't seen this trend replicated in Ireland.

 

[island]

Irish fares, like in GB, usually have little difference between singles and returns, or the return may be cheaper than a single. British peak singles are sometimes a lot less than peak returns and this gap has widened in recent years with the introduction of more Anytime Returns fares, but I haven't seen this trend replicated in Ireland.

That depends very heavily on the flow in question. For example, a ticket from Bray to Connolly is €2.35 PAYG single, €2.85 anytime single, €4.90 anytime day return, €5.70 anytime return. On the other hand, Cork to Heuston is €66 single, €51 off-peak day return (outbound at or after 0930 Tue/Wed/Thur/Sat, return any train), €71 five-day return, €78.50 anytime return. Most people don't pay either of the last two prices, because there are advances from €10, and they have a policy of selling advances up until 90 minutes before the train departs.

 

[bb21]

That depends very heavily on the flow in question. For example, a ticket from Bray to Connolly is €2.35 PAYG single, €2.85 anytime single, €4.90 anytime day return, €5.70 anytime return. On the other hand, Cork to Heuston is €66 single, €51 off-peak day return (outbound at or after 0930 Tue/Wed/Thur/Sat, return any train), €71 five-day return, €78.50 anytime return. Most people don't pay either of the last two prices, because there are advances from €10, and they have a policy of selling advances up until 90 minutes before the train departs.

I thought we were the only ones with ridiculously priced single fares. hock:

 

[pemma]

Would that be a bad thing? We have a daily extra EC service which we can use the same tickets on - and provides useful extra connections at Leeds.

I'm not sure you understand. The situation in Spain would be similar to the following tickets for Leeds-Newcastle:

Intercity Return: £40. Valid on East Coast and CrossCountry. Invalid on TPE.

Regional Return: £15. Valid on TPE. Invalid on East Coast and CrossCountry.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure you understand. The situation in Spain would be similar to the following tickets for Leeds-Newcastle:

Intercity Return: £40. Valid on East Coast and CrossCountry. Invalid on TPE.

Regional Return: £15. Valid on TPE. Invalid on East Coast and CrossCountry.

Given that TPE only takes 9 minutes longer than XC and runs a direct service, everyone would take TPE, so they'd be overcrowded. XC would have plenty of spare seats! And what about Durham to Newcastle?

 

[radamfi]

I'm not sure you understand. The situation in Spain would be similar to the following tickets for Leeds-Newcastle:

Intercity Return: £40. Valid on East Coast and CrossCountry. Invalid on TPE.

Regional Return: £15. Valid on TPE. Invalid on East Coast and CrossCountry.

That's different to the German system. If you pay for the IC/ICE then you can still use the local train.

 

[pemma]

Given that TPE only takes 9 minutes longer than XC and runs a direct service, everyone would take TPE

Yes that's exactly why I gave that example as it makes it similar to the Ronda-Algeciras situation in Spain.

Deerfold didn't seem to understand my original explanation as the reply was "Would that be a bad thing?" which I why I gave an English example.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes that's exactly why I gave that example as it makes it similar to the Ronda-Algeciras situation in Spain.

Deerfold didn't seem to understand my original explanation as the reply was "Would that be a bad thing?" which I why I gave an English example.

"Why would that be a bad thing?" was to the comment "if tickets were interchangeable between the two services it would effectively be like an increase in frequency" - it sounded to me like you thought that would be a bad thing! Which was why I then explained why I thought the opposite worked well. I think we're in agreement that their ticketing arangements make little sense for that service.

 

[radamfi]

Are returns twice the single in Spain? If so, you could choose a single on either slow or fast service meaning you wouldn't have to wait for 'your' train on the return trip.

 

[pemma]

Are returns twice the single in Spain?

No. If you then buy an outward journey plus a return journey you pay the price of two singles minus a 10% discount.