Proposed Transdev X41/X43 Changes within Manchester

[dodecahedron67]

Transdev Burnley are proposing changes to the Witchway X43 & Red Express X41 services in Manchester.

Buses would no longer serve Chorlton St, John Dalton St, or Victoria Bridge.
Buses would instead serve Victoria Station itself, Printworks, and then terminate at Shudehill Interchange.

Tweet link here
Consultation link here

Image attached from consultation

 

[Andyh82]

One thing about Shudehill is that I wish the council would improve the roads and pavements in the immediate vicinity. There isn’t any clear route between the Arndale and Shudehill without having to either go out of your way/cross roads or tramlines without any official crossing, almost get run over by multiple accesses to car parks, loading bays etc whist walking on tight uneven pavements that change width and get unnecessarily narrow.

I don’t know where the car traffic is heading if you are passing through here, but id suggest no through traffic except for access to the Arndale Car Park

If this happened Shudehill would become a more popular location rather than the strange thing of it feeling out of the way whilst actually being right next to the Arndale

 

[158756]

Transdev Burnley are proposing changes to the Witchway X43 & Red Express X41 services in Manchester.

Buses would no longer serve Chorlton St, John Dalton St, or Victoria Bridge.
Buses would instead serve Victoria Station itself, Printworks, and then terminate at Shudehill Interchange.

Tweet link here
Consultation link here

Image attached from consultationView attachment 157707

Really not sure this is a good idea. Yes, it should probably be a major improvement for reliability, particularly when the traffic is really bad during the Christmas markets, but it's going to make the service so much less attractive to anyone going anywhere towards the south of the city centre. And I don't see how it reduces running times enough to save a bus, unless they're going to cut the frequency again.

Yes there are trams at Victoria or Shudehill, but you have to pay again, plus getting on the tram in the city centre is often a pretty unpleasant experience, and we know people don't like changes at the best of times.

But this is another example of public transport suffering from the failure to manage traffic in Manchester city centre.

 

[Class 466]

Really not sure this is a good idea. Yes, it should probably be a major improvement for reliability, particularly when the traffic is really bad during the Christmas markets, but it's going to make the service so much less attractive to anyone going anywhere towards the south of the city centre. And I don't see how it reduces running times enough to save a bus, unless they're going to cut the frequency again.

Yes there are trams at Victoria or Shudehill, but you have to pay again, plus getting on the tram in the city centre is often a pretty unpleasant experience, and we know people don't like changes at the best of times.

But this is another example of public transport suffering from the failure to manage traffic in Manchester city centre.

There’s also the free bus that continues on and goes past the coach station it’s no real loss when the service is so unreliable because of the delays it encounters from outside Victoria to Chorlton Street as current.

 

[RustySpoons]

A lot of time gets lost on both the X41 and X43 battling across Manchester so this makes sense from a logistical point of view, however it'd be a 15/20 minute walk for people who still need to get to Chorlton St. From a customer point of view it might not be as successful. Transdev are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Terminate at Shudehill, potentially upset passengers. Leave it as it is, waste lots of time stuck in traffic.

Do other services coming into the city from the north terminate at Shudehill too?

 

[Ant158]

Do other services coming into the city from the north terminate at Shudehill too?

Most of the services from Bury and Bolton terminate at Shudehill. There's services like 17 from Rochdale. Also Flixbus and Megabus serve Shudehill rather than Chorlton Street.

 

[Bungle965]

Really not sure this is a good idea. Yes, it should probably be a major improvement for reliability, particularly when the traffic is really bad during the Christmas markets, but it's going to make the service so much less attractive to anyone going anywhere towards the south of the city centre. And I don't see how it reduces running times enough to save a bus, unless they're going to cut the frequency again.

Yes there are trams at Victoria or Shudehill, but you have to pay again, plus getting on the tram in the city centre is often a pretty unpleasant experience, and we know people don't like changes at the best of times.

But this is another example of public transport suffering from the failure to manage traffic in Manchester city centre.

A lot of time gets lost on both the X41 and X43 battling across Manchester so this makes sense from a logistical point of view, however it'd be a 15/20 minute walk for people who still need to get to Chorlton St. From a customer point of view it might not be as successful. Transdev are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Terminate at Shudehill, potentially upset passengers. Leave it as it is, waste lots of time stuck in traffic.

Do other services coming into the city from the north terminate at Shudehill too?

Perhaps a halfway house is for journeys Off-Peak to continue to run into the City Centre and provide the connections, whilst peak start/terminate at Shudehill?

Traffic congestion within the City Centre is completely unacceptable at times which really does need looking at by the City Council. I’m not sure why Victoria Street was ever closed off fully in the first place, would have been much more sensible being bus only.

 

[peterblue]

A lot of time gets lost on both the X41 and X43 battling across Manchester so this makes sense from a logistical point of view, however it'd be a 15/20 minute walk for people who still need to get to Chorlton St. From a customer point of view it might not be as successful. Transdev are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Terminate at Shudehill, potentially upset passengers. Leave it as it is, waste lots of time stuck in traffic.

Do other services coming into the city from the north terminate at Shudehill too?

A good majority of services from the north do terminate at Shudehill rather than battling across the city centre. A few exceptions e.g. 135 to Bury.

Ultimately it depends where people want to go. Arndale is less than 5 mins walk from Shudehill for shopping, but if passengers want the coach station, or Piccadilly, then it'll be farther.

 

[markymark2000]

There’s also the free bus that continues on and goes past the coach station it’s no real loss when the service is so unreliable because of the delays it encounters from outside Victoria to Chorlton Street as current.

The free bus is very unreliable though and the links don't all work out so from Shudehill you could get to Chorlton Street easily but you can't get to St Peters Square or Deansgate on the free bus without travelling via Piccadilly. In the opposite direction, you can get easily from St Peters Square and Deansgate to Shudehill but not so much Chorlton Street.

Something that isn't being mentioned here is how this may affect Transdevs relationship with National Express considering the X43 has through ticket sales for Manchester, I can't see National Express offering through tickets to/from a service which serves the other end of the city centre.

 

[Bungle965]

Something that isn't being mentioned here is how this may affect Transdevs relationship with National Express considering the X43 has through ticket sales for Manchester, I can't see National Express offering through tickets to/from a service which serves the other end of the city centre.

How well used actually is that through ticket offering though?

 

[RustySpoons]

The free bus is very unreliable though and the links don't all work out so from Shudehill you could get to Chorlton Street easily but you can't get to St Peters Square or Deansgate on the free bus without travelling via Piccadilly. In the opposite direction, you can get easily from St Peters Square and Deansgate to Shudehill but not so much Chorlton Street.

Something that isn't being mentioned here is how this may affect Transdevs relationship with National Express considering the X43 has through ticket sales for Manchester, I can't see National Express offering through tickets to/from a service which serves the other end of the city centre.

I didn't realise they still offered through ticketing with National Express! Many years ago (as in, 20+ years ago) there used to be stickers in the windscreen of the bus stating National Express tickets were accepted, don't think I've seen anything advertising it for a good number of years now.

 

[158756]

I didn't realise they still offered through ticketing with National Express! Many years ago (as in, 20+ years ago) there used to be stickers in the windscreen of the bus stating National Express tickets were accepted, don't think I've seen anything advertising it for a good number of years now.

I know they still do because it was the only service National Express were offering to Burnley for quite a while after Covid. The direct London bus is back now though (though when I say direct, it takes so long to get to Manchester you can actually book an itinerary with a later departure on the X43 which catches up to it in Manchester)

Actually, just trying a few destinations in the journey planner, I'm not sure National Express sell connections on their own service, all the results seem to suggest the X43. No idea how many people actually do it.

 

[Class 466]

I feel as if it might be better recieved with some kind of Metrolink acceptance in the city centre or something. Not totally impossible

 

[Andyh82]

A lot of time gets lost on both the X41 and X43 battling across Manchester so this makes sense from a logistical point of view, however it'd be a 15/20 minute walk for people who still need to get to Chorlton St. From a customer point of view it might not be as successful. Transdev are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Terminate at Shudehill, potentially upset passengers. Leave it as it is, waste lots of time stuck in traffic.

Do other services coming into the city from the north terminate at Shudehill too?

This is probably the point of the survey

If loads reply saying it will be so disruptive they will no longer travel, they might not make the change

Shudehill Interchange should be a better waiting environment than standing at the side of the road in Chorlton Street

 

[RustySpoons]

I do recall a number of years ago they mooted the same idea. The feedback at the time was largely negative, and as such the 'fast' rush hour journeys were the only ones that terminated at Shudehill. Obviously traffic and congestion has got a lot worse since, so whether or not feedback will be any different this time round I'm not sure.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

If the traffic lights in central Manchester spent more than one second per minute on green for traffic.....
If the centreline bus could go through more than two road junctions without lurching off down a side street....

As a regular user, this would be very inconvenient. Piccadilly via tram to Shudehill, or centreline bus, means two changes with all the potential unreliability that brings. How much time would one have to leave between train arrival at Piccadilly and bus departure from Shudehill? 18 minutes travel time on the 2 bus, running at a 10 minute frequency but often twice that, 5 minutes to interchange at Shudehill, so 28 - 33 minutes.

At present it is a quick, predictable walk from Piccadilly to Chorlton Street. I allow 20 minutes platform to bus stop, which leaves ample for a slightly delayed train. The walk can be done in six minutes at a fast pace.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Surely this whole mess could be fixed by using the national rail approach - a ticket to Central Manchester includes one free transfer on the tram within zone 1?
With the Bee Network and permits, could this be made to work with adequate reimbursement rates to TfGM/Bee Network for the tram journey?

So Passenger X gets on the X43 at <insert Lancashire stop of your choice, we'll use Burnley here> and pays £2 for a single to Shudehill. On arrival in Shudehill, Passenger X can get the tram to St Peters' Square, Deansgate-Castlefield, Piccadilly Gardens, or Piccadilly itself at no additional cost just by showing their bus ticket on any inspection (or by just bumping it for free anyway like [edit for forum mods: this is a joke statistic and is not meant to be real or representative in any way shape or form - p.s go outside for once] 80% of Met journeys)

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Surely this whole mess could be fixed by using the national rail approach - a ticket to Central Manchester includes one free transfer on the tram within zone 1?
With the Bee Network and permits, could this be made to work with adequate reimbursement rates to TfGM/Bee Network for the tram journey?

So Passenger X gets on the X43 at <insert Lancashire stop of your choice, we'll use Burnley here> and pays £2 for a single to Shudehill. On arrival in Shudehill, Passenger X can get the tram to St Peters' Square, Deansgate-Castlefield, Piccadilly Gardens, or Piccadilly itself at no additional cost just by showing their bus ticket on any inspection (or by just bumping it for free anyway like 80% of Met journeys)

The ticket including free travel across central Manchester is only available from Greater Manchester stations. The X41 and X43, whilst stopping within GM, mostly serves passengers beyond that boundary. A solution could be arrived at for those routes but who would pay? Transport for Greater Manchester, Transdev, or the city council who are the driver (pun intended) behind the proposals to remove cross-city traffic. A bus/tram interchange at Prestwich, with through ticketing, would be the co-ordinated transport solution.

A through ticket / free transfer ticket does not solve the extended travel times and double connection issue though.

 

[158756]

The ticket including free travel across central Manchester is only available from Greater Manchester stations. The X41 and X43, whilst stopping within GM, mostly serves passengers beyond that boundary. A solution could be arrived at for those routes but who would pay? Transport for Greater Manchester, Transdev, or the city council who are the driver (pun intended) behind the proposals to remove cross-city traffic. A bus/tram interchange at Prestwich, with through ticketing, would be the co-ordinated transport solution.

A through ticket / free transfer ticket does not solve the extended travel times and double connection issue though.

This is the problem, who would pay for any ticket acceptance on the trams? The traffic is the council's problem, but they certainly aren't going to pay for it. TfGM aren't going to allow people to travel for free on their trams. Transdev - well we know the X41 is already not commercially viable, the X43 has been cut back in recent years and the business is not in great shape financially. And currently much of the revenue from these routes will be reimbursement for the £2 fare scheme, which presumably isn't going to go up to fund any extended ticket validity. Lancashire County Council - fat chance of any council these days having the money to fund transport inside their area never mind anywhere else, and they would quite rightly ask why is Manchester's traffic our problem?

A bus/tram interchange at Prestwich, with through ticketing, would be the co-ordinated transport solution.

Not sure that would be the best option even if we had perfect integrated ticketing. When the bus runs to time (which is an issue obviously) the tram is only a few minutes faster between Prestwich and the north end of the city centre, and you'd lose that or more making the change, particularly in the outward direction, where connecting onto an hourly service like the X41 or the X43 in the evening would clearly be risky.

 

[Geeves]

There's been rumours for a long time that the council would like to see Chorlton St gone altogether and really the X41 and X43 are the last of Manchester's long distance bus services (vs real coaches) remaining there. TfGM also have that land they bought further out near Piccadilly which might well be where the coaches go.

 

[Deerfold]

I do recall a number of years ago they mooted the same idea. The feedback at the time was largely negative, and as such the 'fast' rush hour journeys were the only ones that terminated at Shudehill. Obviously traffic and congestion has got a lot worse since, so whether or not feedback will be any different this time round I'm not sure.

No journeys terminate at Shudehill at the moment, though the fast rush hour journeys do pass it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In terms of walking distance from Piccadilly, Shudehill isn’t really much further than Chorlton Street. Sticking to the main roads it’s 10-15 minutes instead of 5-10 minutes, and if you cut up Oldham Street then the pedestrianised Thomas Street it’s slightly less. And with the way the traffic is in the city centre these days, the longer walk would be more than offset by the savings from not sitting in a traffic jam.

I can see why Transdev want to explore it, it’ll be interesting what the responses are. The change shouldn’t make much difference to shoppers given Shudehill is basically opposite the Arndale and the Printworks, but office workers will have a longer walk to the main commercial areas around St Peter’s Square.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Transdev Burnley are proposing changes to the Witchway X43 & Red Express X41 services in Manchester.

Buses would no longer serve Chorlton St, John Dalton St, or Victoria Bridge.
Buses would instead serve Victoria Station itself, Printworks, and then terminate at Shudehill Interchange.

Tweet link here
Consultation link here

Image attached from consultationView attachment 157707

I feel this would work if they went straight to Shudehill (cutting out Victoria and the Printworks), then Picc Gardens. Question is - is there space for them at Picc Gardens?

 

[Leedsbusman]

I feel this would work if they went straight to Shudehill (cutting out Victoria and the Printworks), then Picc Gardens. Question is - is there space for them at Picc Gardens?

How would you get to shudehill without going via Victoria?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

In terms of walking distance from Piccadilly, Shudehill isn’t really much further than Chorlton Street. Sticking to the main roads it’s 10-15 minutes instead of 5-10 minutes, and if you cut up Oldham Street then the pedestrianised Thomas Street it’s slightly less. And with the way the traffic is in the city centre these days, the longer walk would be more than offset by the savings from not sitting in a traffic jam.

I can see why Transdev want to explore it, it’ll be interesting what the responses are. The change shouldn’t make much difference to shoppers given Shudehill is basically opposite the Arndale and the Printworks, but office workers will have a longer walk to the main commercial areas around St Peter’s Square.

Measured from the blind men sculpture, 465m to the Chorlton Street bus stop, 1,100 to the nearest part of Shudehill, slightly more than double. But that assumes a person can walk such a distance, wants to walk such a distance, has minimal luggage (and/or children etc) and there isn't any heavy Manchester Sunshine coming down.

I am convinced, in a conspiracy theorist sort of way, that the delays in the city centre are a deliberate policy in order to deter traffic, including buses. The green phase for traffic at Victoria Bridge Street allows only a couple of vehicles through each time.

Not sure that would be the best option even if we had perfect integrated ticketing. When the bus runs to time (which is an issue obviously) the tram is only a few minutes faster between Prestwich and the north end of the city centre, and you'd lose that or more making the change, particularly in the outward direction, where connecting onto an hourly service like the X41 or the X43 in the evening would clearly be risky.

Well, it would be helpful if Metrolink published timetables, or at least journey times between stops. Combined with frequency you could then make an estimate of the likely time required. As it stands the TfGM jouney planner seems to assume we all want to cycle everywhere, all the time.

 

[Andyh82]

It’s no different to how various rail services have moved from Piccadilly to Victoria or vice versa, or stop short at Oxford Road to ease congestion on the railways

People will have got used to that

 

[gc4946]

Shudehill is a few hundred yards walk to/from Manchester Victoria station following the tramlines on Balloon Street, I've done that myself, but coming from Victoria it would be an uphill journey.
Moreover Shudehill allows more choice travelling via Metrolink for onward destinations, but not convenient for National Express connections to/from Chorlton Street, unsure how much custom Transdev will lose from connecting National Express customers because the buses would no longer call outside the coach station.

 

[Andyh82]

I’d guess the number of people using the X41/X43 to connect into National Express is 0.01%

 

[AlastairFraser]

I’d guess the number of people using the X41/X43 to connect into National Express is 0.01%

More significant will be the Burnley/Rossendale/Accy/Ramsbottom flow into Picc station for long distance services though.

The Burnley into Vic services are unreliable and expensive compared to the bus (even before the £2 offer - you could get a Transdev ticket bundle at just over £2 per ticket), so plenty will take this towards Chorlton St and then walk the 10 mins to Picc station.

How would you get to shudehill without going via Victoria?

Turn left off Gt Ducie St onto the ring road, rather than straight ahead onto Victoria St, then round on to Shudehill. Then you cut out all the regular Corpy St/Withy Grove jams past the Printworks.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Measured from the blind men sculpture, 465m to the Chorlton Street bus stop, 1,100 to the nearest part of Shudehill, slightly more than double. But that assumes a person can walk such a distance, wants to walk such a distance, has minimal luggage (and/or children etc) and there isn't any heavy Manchester Sunshine coming down.

There’s always the tram for those eventualities, with the trams at a 12 min headway from Shudehill to Piccadilly.

More significant will be the Burnley/Rossendale/Accy/Ramsbottom flow into Picc station for long distance services though.

I can’t imagine that would be a particularly big market, as you’d buy a through rail ticket in those situations. From the M65 corridor its usually quicker to go via Preston if you’re connecting into long distance services on the train.

Most people on the bus will be going to Manchester. With Shudehill you get reliable timing and a nicer place to wait, but the flip side is it’s quite the walk to a lot of the commercial offices areas around St Peter’s Square.