psychometrics fail. Any hope of the OPC tests being refreshed?

[Bucephalus]

I failed tea-occ and dfft today. It was my first attempt on those tests but my second visit to the opc which means I am eliminated for life.

I initially was going rue devoting too much time to the Group Bourdon resit or neglecting to realise that two visits = two lives regardless of whether individual tests are failed for the first time only.

However, a post by TheEdge from an old thread has hit the nail on the head:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/through-to-psychometric-testing-need-advice.122851

"...At the end of the day these are not designed to be tests you can learn to pass. They are designed to catch people out who do not have the requisite skills. If you need to learn your way through the tests to pass them then you are only causing yourself problems, namely that the training and job will be very difficult as you have "tricked" the system into thinking you have the skills that are needed, people forget that...."

It is hard to take at the moment but quite freeing to think about other walks of life.

Obviously I'm going to try again should the OPC renew the tests though but I dread to think when that would be

 

[Stigy]

Sorry to hear you didn’t pass the tests. The last time the assessments were changed was 2013 I believe. As a rule I don’t think they are changed, unless there’s a need for it, so I wouldn’t hold my breath unfortunately.

It’s right that you get two goes for a reason, and these aren’t assessments one can practice for as such. Good luck for the future!

 

[Bucephalus]

Thanks Stigy. To be fair, bus driving is an enjoyable job despite what some might say. And I'm still good for the tram and the tube!!!

 

[PaulBusDriver]

I might be throwing the Cat amongst the Pigeons here but I think there has to be a distinction between being unfamilar with the test and not answering it efficiently and being incapable of answering the questions. Learning how to scan through the fault finding sheets efficiently is not necesssarily an inate, natural talent any more than jumping behind the cab of a vehicle is. You have to have a certain amount of familiarity with the tests to do them well I think.

 

[43066]

I failed tea-occ and dfft today. It was my first attempt on those tests but my second visit to the opc which means I am eliminated for life.

I initially was going rue devoting too much time to the Group Bourdon resit or neglecting to realise that two visits = two lives regardless of whether individual tests are failed for the first time only.

However, a post by TheEdge from an old thread has hit the nail on the head:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/through-to-psychometric-testing-need-advice.122851

"...At the end of the day these are not designed to be tests you can learn to pass. They are designed to catch people out who do not have the requisite skills. If you need to learn your way through the tests to pass them then you are only causing yourself problems, namely that the training and job will be very difficult as you have "tricked" the system into thinking you have the skills that are needed, people forget that...."

It is hard to take at the moment but quite freeing to think about other walks of life.

Obviously I'm going to try again should the OPC renew the tests though but I dread to think when that would be

Sorry to hear that. As noted above, it’s worth keeping an eye out in case the rules change again.

I might be throwing the Cat amongst the Pigeons here but I think there has to be a distinction between being unfamilar with the test and not answering it efficiently and being incapable of answering the questions. Learning how to scan through the fault finding sheets efficiently is not necesssarily an inate, natural talent any more than jumping behind the cab of a vehicle is. You have to have a certain amount of familiarity with the tests to do them well I think.

Unfortunately that isn’t the way the industry sees it. From my experience, the only test you can really prep for is the Group Bourdon.

 

[Stigy]

I might be throwing the Cat amongst the Pigeons here but I think there has to be a distinction between being unfamilar with the test and not answering it efficiently and being incapable of answering the questions. Learning how to scan through the fault finding sheets efficiently is not necesssarily an inate, natural talent any more than jumping behind the cab of a vehicle is. You have to have a certain amount of familiarity with the tests to do them well I think.

The practice material is intended to familiarise you with what you’ll get on the day, however for tests like the DFFT, it’s very limited in its use. I see what you’re saying, but the idea is to be able to understand the test, and complete it on the day, and the OPC (or TOC/FOC if it’s in house) are usually very good at making sure you understand what you have to do.

Not wanting to sound like a broken record here (but I probably will anyway) but these tests can’t be revised for, and are there to assess if you’re able to learn vast amounts of information, and have the technical ability to drive a train. Being able to comprehend what is expected of you in a reasonably quick manner, and carrying the tests out under relative pressure is all part of the ‘game’ I guess. That’s why they give you two goes, because let’s face it, not everyone is great at assessments, and people do have off days etc. But if you carried on taking test after test, it makes the whole process pointless really.

 

[Applepie356]

I failed tea-occ and dfft today. It was my first attempt on those tests but my second visit to the opc which means I am eliminated for life.

I initially was going rue devoting too much time to the Group Bourdon resit or neglecting to realise that two visits = two lives regardless of whether individual tests are failed for the first time only.

However, a post by TheEdge from an old thread has hit the nail on the head:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/through-to-psychometric-testing-need-advice.122851

"...At the end of the day these are not designed to be tests you can learn to pass. They are designed to catch people out who do not have the requisite skills. If you need to learn your way through the tests to pass them then you are only causing yourself problems, namely that the training and job will be very difficult as you have "tricked" the system into thinking you have the skills that are needed, people forget that...."

It is hard to take at the moment but quite freeing to think about other walks of life.

Obviously I'm going to try again should the OPC renew the tests though but I dread to think when that would be

Sorry to hear you didn’t pass. Did you get any feedback on your result?


Unfortunately it seems to be the case nowadays where the tests are actually used to thin out the thousands of potential candidates, especially evident when you see most ToC’s using enhanced marks!

 

[Bucephalus]

Sorry to hear you didn’t pass. Did you get any feedback on your result?


Unfortunately it seems to be the case nowadays where the tests are actually used to thin out the thousands of potential candidates, especially evident when you see most ToC’s using enhanced marks!

Thanks AP. There was no specific feedback and yes, one of my fails was on the enhanced dfft. I guess if you have say 500 people apply for say 50 positions and big money to retain them, then you might as well use difficult tests to extract the cream of crop.

I also accept that the training let alone the job itself might be quite hairy itself. It might be tough to swallow now but it would be ten times as heartbreaking to not pass out after training.

I think the challenges associated with psycometrics and the reason they exist needs to be mentioned even more often in the wannabe boil in the bag driver threads

 

[dakta]

" I might be throwing the Cat amongst the Pigeons here but I think there has to be a distinction between being unfamilar with the test and not answering it efficiently and being incapable of answering the questions. "

I actually agree, I won't dwell on it too much as at the time I got some very strong differences of opinion by mentioning it, but I actually found the point you raised quite significant influence and consistent with my own experiences with both types of testing.

Some tests are harder than others in this aspect, but I bet familiarization and the right training in the right areas can improve performance in almost all areas.

And whilst some might identify training as cheating, what it does suggest is the skill set can 'float', which means even without training and just through the normal course of life peoples aptitudes can change and as such a blanket rule against attempting the test is not really ideal, though perhaps a wait between tests to allow for development isn't all that draconian.

Opinions will differ, but thats my 2p. I'm sorry you didn't pass, it's the tests that put me off the role in the end, I've taken the tests on multiple occasions, never failed one though I realised with most companies insisiting you do them each time that it was literally a matter of time before I had some bad days and ruined a potential career. Being barred from applying for failing test x when you've passed it 2, 3 or four times before doesn't appeal much

 

[Stigy]

it's the tests that put me off the role in the end, I've taken the tests on multiple occasions, never failed one though I realised with most companies insisiting you do them each time that it was literally a matter of time before I had some bad days and ruined a potential career. Being barred from applying for failing test x when you've passed it 2, 3 or four times before doesn't appeal much

I only know of a couple of instances were a TOC/FOC has insisted on tests being retaken if the results are current. Most will honour the results as long as they’re current based on their policy (it can be between 1 and 5 years).

 

[notadriver]

Thanks Stigy. To be fair, bus driving is an enjoyable job despite what some might say. And I'm still good for the tram and the tube!!!

Sorry to hear you didn’t pass. Where do you drive buses ? Are you on any of the Facebook bus or coach groups?

 

[dakta]

I only know of a couple of instances were a TOC/FOC has insisted on tests being retaken if the results are current. Most will honour the results as long as they’re current based on their policy (it can be between 1 and 5 years).

Well it could always be down to their policy I guess (I've had it happen to me to reasonable concern!). I always considered consistency quite key where testing is concerned, so I still find it strange that there are ways in which a pass can mean failure.

It has been a while since I took the tests now, so my knowledge of the rules are hazy - I used to beleive failing to meet enhanced but meeting national standard failed you on the role you were applying for if the toc/foc required it, however did not actually count as one of your attempts due to the fact it met the national standard - is this correct?

 

[Westcoast-ting]

I was under the impression you could only fail one element twice. So more than two attempts at the process as long you only fail on different elements.
I think the OPC have their interpretation of the guidelines as I have known them to refuse a second attempt When a colleague failed the at home screening, before attending a assessment centre.
As for the tests being changed, I can see a change pre assessment centres as with the trail test for Avanti where they did extra tests.
I think a more comprehensive set of screening tests that would give a higher pass rate for people attending the actual tests would be a financial advantage in the recruiting process.

 

[Coach Carter]

I was under the impression you could only fail one element twice. So more than two attempts at the process as long you only fail on different elements.
I think the OPC have their interpretation of the guidelines as I have known them to refuse a second attempt When a colleague failed the at home screening, before attending a assessment centre.
As for the tests being changed, I can see a change pre assessment centres as with the trail test for Avanti where they did extra tests.
I think a more comprehensive set of screening tests that would give a higher pass rate for people attending the actual tests would be a financial advantage in the recruiting process.

You only get 2 goes at the tests as a whole, as far as there concerned if you can’t pass the whole process within 2 goes then your not what they are looking for.
They don’t want it made easier to get more passing, there not short of people that make it through.

Well it could always be down to their policy I guess (I've had it happen to me to reasonable concern!). I always considered consistency quite key where testing is concerned, so I still find it strange that there are ways in which a pass can mean failure.

Its not really inconsistent, there is a national standard so if you reach that then you can keep coming back as much as you like for employers that except it. Others just want higher marks. Is similar to how you might get into a uni after A-levels, a C grade is a pass for a-level and will get you into some universities, while others want a higher grade to be excepted.

 

[43066]

Delete (I misread the post I quoted).

 

[Bucephalus]

Sorry to hear you didn’t pass. Where do you drive buses ? Are you on any of the Facebook bus or coach groups?

Hey there. I drive buses in Croydon, not on any FB groups though apart from "bus drivers in London". But I almost never go on FB!

Anyone know if, when psycometrics are done privately and paid for, whether the two lives rule still applies? Don't know why I'm clutching straws

 

[choochoochoo]

Privately done psychometrics would still count in your lives count. Sorry

 

[nb2001uk]

Sorry to hear you didn’t pass the tests. The last time the assessments were changed was 2013 I believe. As a rule I don’t think they are changed, unless there’s a need for it, so I wouldn’t hold my breath unfortunately.

So ive recevived some paperwork regarding what to practice for at the assessment centre at the bottom its dated 2013, so would this be the current one and that whats in the practice work, is the same as what the current exams will be?

thanks

 

[Bucephalus]

So ive recevived some paperwork regarding what to practice for at the assessment centre at the bottom its dated 2013, so would this be the current one and that whats in the practice work, is the same as what the current exams will be?

thanks

Yes, it's the current one. The practice papers are slightly different to the real assessments but they will be helpful. For example, the Group bourdon tool thread on here will show you exactly what the Group bourdon test looks like, whereas the practice material is more like scaat.

 

[nb2001uk]

Yes, it's the current one. The practice papers are slightly different to the real assessments but they will be helpful. For example, the Group bourdon tool thread on here will show you exactly what the Group bourdon test looks like, whereas the practice material is more like scaat.

yeah ive been practing the GB test , i manage to get 9 lines all the time, not sure if thats acceptable

 

[PickleTree]

yeah ive been practing the GB test , i manage to get 9 lines all the time, not sure if thats acceptable

9 to 10 lines with zero omissions is where I was when I sat the GBT and passed. I actually found the test on the day easier than the practice material as the dots are laid out in a better way.

 

[E27007]

At my Depot, candidates who do pass , after a few weeks wait, go back and resit the sections of the pyschometric where they did not meet grade, those sections where they met grade are not examined.
I was not aware of a lifetime limit on the attempts, although that was the case in the 1990s, (3 attempts maximum) and each sitting was the full test regardless of previous performance