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Refund if train is delayed and I choose not to travel?

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therailwayking

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Hi there,
I was scheduled to get GWR from Cheltenham to London today at 0959. Train was showing as 19 minutes delayed.
I decided not to travel as I will just go another day and I have other stuff to do now.
As the train was showing a delay and I chose not to travel, can I get a refund on the unused ticket?
It was an advance ticket.
I have had a look online and it seems if I do travel and there are delays of 15, 30, 60 or 120 minutes I can get compensation.
Or if the train is cancelled or delayed I can get a refund if I choose not to travel. However the delay for a refund does not seem to have a limit. Does this mean in theory a delay of 1 minute could trigger a refund if you choose not to traveL?
Thank you
 
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Benjwri

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As the train was showing a delay and I chose not to travel, can I get a refund on the unused ticket?
Yes, as as you chose not to travel due to a delay you are entitled to a fee free refund under NRCoT 30.1. You should claim this refund from the retailer you bought the ticket, if you don’t know how to do this let us know where and we can assist.

I have had a look online and it seems if I do travel and there are delays of 15, 30, 60 or 120 minutes I can get compensation.
This is correct, many TOCs operate delay repay schemes, how much they pay out and for what length of delay depends on the individual TOC.
However the delay for a refund does not seem to have a limit. Does this mean in theory a delay of 1 minute could trigger a refund if you choose not to traveL?
Thank you
Technically the NRCoT doesn’t impose a limit on the delay, so I guess in theory you might be entitled to a refund if you choose not to travel, however not sure how much success you will have claiming it.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Seems to me that if the GWR train is sufficiently delayed on arrival into London Paddington for you to have qualified for Delay Repay (= 15+ mins), then it's demonstrably been delayed, and so you should then, IMHO, certainly be able to make a valid claim for a full refund from the ticket retailer for not travelling on the Advance ticket. Whether you could validly claim a refund with respect to a train "delayed" by only a few minutes (i.e. less than 15 minutes) is a moot point.

Extract from National Rail website...
8). Your ticket is non-refundable. However, if the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed and as a result you decide not to travel a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee

 

Haywain

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As the train was showing a delay and I chose not to travel, can I get a refund on the unused ticket?
Yes, you can get a fee-free refund. As you chose not to travel Delay Repay is of no relevance.
Does this mean in theory a delay of 1 minute could trigger a refund if you choose not to traveL?
In theory, yes, but it would be understandable if the retailer disputed this.
 

JBuchananGB

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Just to emphasis, this a REFUND to be claimed from the retailer from whom you bought the ticket. This is NOT Delay Repay to claim from GWR who operated the train.
 

Watershed

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Hi there,
I was scheduled to get GWR from Cheltenham to London today at 0959. Train was showing as 19 minutes delayed.
I decided not to travel as I will just go another day and I have other stuff to do now.
As the train was showing a delay and I chose not to travel, can I get a refund on the unused ticket?
It was an advance ticket.
I have had a look online and it seems if I do travel and there are delays of 15, 30, 60 or 120 minutes I can get compensation.
Or if the train is cancelled or delayed I can get a refund if I choose not to travel. However the delay for a refund does not seem to have a limit. Does this mean in theory a delay of 1 minute could trigger a refund if you choose not to traveL?
Thank you
Yes, you're correct. Any delay to your intended/booked service(s) qualifies you for a fee-free refund, including on tickets that would not normally be refundable, such as Advance tickets.

Condition 30.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) refers:
30. Your Right to a Refund If Your Train Is Disrupted and You Choose Not to Travel
30.1
Conditions 30.1 –30.4 cover all Tickets other than Season Tickets, and also apply if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to a delay to, or cancellation of, your service. In such cases, you are permitted to return to your point of origin and still get a refund.

You may return an unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee charged, if you decide not to travel because the train you intended to use is:
• cancelled, or
• delayed, or
...

As you can see, this does not specify any threshold for delay before the right to a full refund kicks in.

Bear in mind the difference between a refund and delay compensation (in this case, GWR operate a Delay Repay scheme). If you complete your journey and are delayed, you should claim Delay Repay from the operator at fault. The shortest delay that entitles to claim any compensation is 15 minutes, but some operators have higher thresholds than this.

If you don't complete your journey - either because you don't travel at all, or only make part of your journey and then abandon it (optionally returning to your starting station) - then you should claim a refund from the company that sold you your ticket.

You can't claim both Delay Repay and a refund, for obvious reasons - and in (almost) all cases you will only be entitled to claim one of the two.
 
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What is the entitlement if, having used the outward portion normally, one opts not to use the return half of a ticket because of serious delay?

Does one get half of the return price, or just the difference between the cost of the return and the cost of a single?
 

Benjwri

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What is the entitlement if, having used the outward portion normally, one opts not to use the return half of a ticket because of serious delay?

Does one get half of the return price, or just the difference between the cost of the return and the cost of a single?
If it's because of disruption in theory you should get 50% of the ticket price back. If you are just refunding for another reason it would be the difference between the return and a single.
 

Skymonster

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And herein hangs a tale. Some while ago I booked a cheap Advance to Sheffield, but then my plans changed and I didn’t need to travel. The lowish price of the ticket made a change (£10 admin fee) not worthwhile and at the time there was no refund for Advances. So I basically decided I’d bin the ticket. Come the day though, just out of curiosity, I checked RTT to see if the train I’d booked had run on time and found it ran around 20 minutes late. So instead of binning the ticket I decided to request a fee-free refund. Th retailer EMR initially turned it down but after I responded, pointing out the Ts&Cs, I was refunded. The moral of the story is: don’t discard an Advance you’re not going to use until the train has ran. I suspect someone will be along sooner or later to tell me what I did was immoral because, even before the delay happened, I had no intention of traveling. But I regard it as using the terms and conditions to my advantage for a change.
 

Mal75756

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And herein hangs a tale. Some while ago I booked a cheap Advance to Sheffield, but then my plans changed and I didn’t need to travel. The lowish price of the ticket made a change (£10 admin fee) not worthwhile and at the time there was no refund for Advances. So I basically decided I’d bin the ticket. Come the day though, just out of curiosity, I checked RTT to see if the train I’d booked had run on time and found it ran around 20 minutes late. So instead of binning the ticket I decided to request a fee-free refund. Th retailer EMR initially turned it down but after I responded, pointing out the Ts&Cs, I was refunded. The moral of the story is: don’t discard an Advance you’re not going to use until the train has ran. I suspect someone will be along sooner or later to tell me what I did was immoral because, even before the delay happened, I had no intention of traveling. But I regard it as using the terms and conditions to my advantage for a change.
One question i have is that they refused you a refund until you pointed out the T&Cs, does that mean the company did not know there own terms and conditions of the ticket or were they hoping you didn't know the T&Cs and that you would accept their incorrect decision and leave it at that, if so then is that not fraud being committed by the seller
 

Watershed

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What is the entitlement if, having used the outward portion normally, one opts not to use the return half of a ticket because of serious delay?

Does one get half of the return price, or just the difference between the cost of the return and the cost of a single?
There is nothing in the NRCoT which explicitly states the amount to be refunded in such circumstances, albeit internal industry guidance is that 50% should be refunded.

If you come across a retailer that doesn't want to offer this level of refund, you would would have to rely on:
  1. the provisions of the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO), specifically Article 16(a), although this only applies for anticipated delays of 61+ minutes - there is precedent from EU261 (the equivalent regulation for the aviation industry) that such refunds are proportional to the distance actually travelled vs the planned total distance,
  2. the Consumer Rights Act 2015, specifically section 56 (although this only applies where the service is not provided with reasonable care and skill, or in compliance with anything included as a term of the contract under section 50), or
  3. any term you could argue to be implied in the contract, stating that a partial refund due to disruption will be proportional rather than based on the equivalent single fare.
Clearly, not all circumstances will fall into one of the first two categories, and it is more complex to argue the case for a proportional refund under the last category.

And herein hangs a tale. Some while ago I booked a cheap Advance to Sheffield, but then my plans changed and I didn’t need to travel. The lowish price of the ticket made a change (£10 admin fee) not worthwhile and at the time there was no refund for Advances. So I basically decided I’d bin the ticket. Come the day though, just out of curiosity, I checked RTT to see if the train I’d booked had run on time and found it ran around 20 minutes late. So instead of binning the ticket I decided to request a fee-free refund. Th retailer EMR initially turned it down but after I responded, pointing out the Ts&Cs, I was refunded. The moral of the story is: don’t discard an Advance you’re not going to use until the train has ran. I suspect someone will be along sooner or later to tell me what I did was immoral because, even before the delay happened, I had no intention of traveling. But I regard it as using the terms and conditions to my advantage for a change.
The NRCoT don't state any requirement that your decision not to travel must be predicated on the disruption. It simply states that if your booked/intended train is delayed or cancelled (et al), and you decide not to travel, you can get a full refund - without any connection between the two (such as "and therefore").

Obviously it must be very much an edge case scenario for someone to have already decided not to travel and for their train then to be delayed or cancelled, but it certainly does happen from time to time and when it does, ticket holders are quite entitled to make use of this (arguably unintended) right.

The £10 admin fee levied by most retailers is likely to be disproportionate to the actual cost of administering a refund through the usual automated processes. It's thus rather ironic that the only way to get a fee-free refund is to make the retailer incur something closer to £10 in admin costs, as disruption related refunds are usually done manually!
 

Skymonster

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One question i have is that they refused you a refund until you pointed out the T&Cs, does that mean the company did not know there own terms and conditions of the ticket or were they hoping you didn't know the T&Cs and that you would accept their incorrect decision and leave it at that, if so then is that not fraud being committed by the seller
I really don’t remember. It was a while ago and I didn’t keep the initial response once I’d got the refund, but best I recall I was initially advised there was no refund as the train ran. When I got back to EMR with a link to the Advance Ts&Cs, I was refunded. I’ll give EMR the benefit of the doubt and suggest whoever dealt with the request didn’t understand the detail.
 

Mal75756

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I really don’t remember. It was a while ago and I didn’t keep the initial response once I’d got the refund, but best I recall I was initially advised there was no refund as the train ran. When I got back to EMR with a link to the Advance Ts&Cs, I was refunded. I’ll give EMR the benefit of the doubt and suggest whoever dealt with the request didn’t understand the detail.
Either way this is worrying, I know in the past i have been refused Delay repay and whilst thought i did have a claim accepted the TOC's decision. In my case it has been trains cancelled which were advance booked the day before and yet it was removed from the schedule on the day i was due to travel, however the other five days of the week the train ran as normal. Also having a delay of 35 minutes but when i claimed the TOC stated it was a 28 minute delay and therefore unable to claim.
Now i am thinking they do try it on to save money.

Thanks for your reply
 

Skymonster

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Either way this is worrying…
Now i am thinking they do try it on to save money.

Thanks for your reply
To the contrary, in my case I suspect very few people decide not to travel when a train is delayed by a mere 20 minutes. Thus the natural reaction would have been that I wasn’t due a refund because the train ran. When I pressed my case and explained why I believed I should be given a refund there was no further pushback and I was reimbursed.
 

miklcct

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To the contrary, in my case I suspect very few people decide not to travel when a train is delayed by a mere 20 minutes.
To be honest, a 20-minute delay can easily tip the balance to alternative transport / routing if I am heading for a time-critical event, so it's reasonable to cancel the ticket citing disruption. For example, if a train to Hatfield is delayed by 20 minutes and the train now is a fast train for St Albans, I may well travel to St Albans and take a bus.

In the past, I claimed a disruption refund on a line with a generally good service with one of the hourly trains being cancelled (I travelled to another station and cycled from there instead).
 
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If it's because of disruption in theory you should get 50% of the ticket price back. If you are just refunding for another reason it would be the difference between the return and a single.
GWR have eventually answered my enquiry about this, including specific details of the decision not to use the return half of the ticket (27 Dec at Paddington at 1030 for 1050 departure: mayhem, with no trains to be seen and Passenger Assistance lounge overflowing, so elderly passenger was taken by car. It looks like the train did eventually show up and ran c50 mins late).

GWR say they will only pay the difference between a single and the offpeak return purchased, which would be £1.80

What should I be quoting to them to get them to refund half of the return ticket (£10.25)?
 

Adam Williams

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. It's thus rather ironic that the only way to get a fee-free refund is to make the retailer incur something closer to £10 in admin costs, as disruption related refunds are usually done manually!
Really no reason for this to be the case with a bit of investment on the software side (which the £10 fees for discretionary refunds can help fund)
 

Watershed

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GWR have eventually answered my enquiry about this, including specific details of the decision not to use the return half of the ticket (27 Dec at Paddington at 1030 for 1050 departure: mayhem, with no trains to be seen and Passenger Assistance lounge overflowing, so elderly passenger was taken by car. It looks like the train did eventually show up and ran c50 mins late).

GWR say they will only pay the difference between a single and the offpeak return purchased, which would be £1.80

What should I be quoting to them to get them to refund half of the return ticket (£10.25)?
That's more difficult. There is nothing in the NRCoT which explicitly says the method of calculation for a partial refund due to disruption. Internal industry guidance is that a 50% refund should be issued, but you can't hold GWR to that (although you could try and refer them to it in the hope they voluntarily adhere to it).

With the delay by waiting for the train being less than 61 minutes, rights under the PRO (which gives the right to a pro-rata refund) don't kick in. Thus you may have to rely on an argument that there is an entitlement to a pro-rata refund under the Consumer Rights Act, as an appropriate price reduction.

It's certainly a trickier position.
 

yorkie

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One question i have is that they refused you a refund until you pointed out the T&Cs, does that mean the company did not know there own terms and conditions of the ticket or were they hoping you didn't know the T&Cs and that you would accept their incorrect decision and leave it at that, if so then is that not fraud being committed by the seller
The correct action is to refund HALF the amount; the retailer I use (Trainsplit) does do this.

However I can't guarantee all retailers will, and if they don't, there isn't anything in the contract to force them to.
 
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