Refused immediate full refund due to delay/cancellation - NRCoC 26(a)

[Olympian]

During the recent Salford derailment my train was cancelled so I decided not to travel and attempted to obtain a full immediate refund as soon as I could do so from a Northern ticket office under section 26(a) of the NRCoC. I will readily admit that my journey commenced at an unstaffed station and I travelled slightly later and on a different route with a brand new ticket and the Northern ticket office was the first one I encountered, however none of this was used as reasoning for not refunding me.

An immediate refund was refused solely because my ticket was purchased from the East Coast website and, apparently, that ticket office never gives immediate refunds for internet tickets even if bought through the Northern website and any refund has to be claimed back from the original purchase point even during delay/cancellation.

Northern's own passenger charter however states that immediate refunds due to delay or cancellation can be claimed "regardless of the ticket type or where it was bought".

A complaint to Northern rail resulted in "wherever possible" in 26(a) being cited in their reply as justification for them not honouring immediate refund claims and, therefore, they were still adhering to the NRCoC. They also stated that their passenger charter was merely "aspirational".

I have since been forced to claim a refund back from East Coast, which takes up to a month to process.

Looking again at NRCoC it makes no sense whatsoever to have both sections 26(a) and 26(b) included if 26(a) cannot be relied upon as an option when a train is delayed or cancelled. You may as well just have 26(b).

This was the first time I had tried to obtain an immediate full refund in such circumstances, however I am left somewhat purplexed by Northern's responses.

So what are the rules surrounding 26(a)? Can TOCs just get out of giving immediate refunds due to the "wherever possible" wording? Do any TOCs actually give them? What does The Manual say in respect of immediate refunds? Has anyone else experienced similar problems to me?

 

[northwichcat]

I recall another poster on here purchased a ticket from the (ATW managed) ticket office at Chester to travel on a Mid-Cheshire line service but Northern cancelled the service. The poster describes how the ATW managed ticket office refused to refund the ticket because it wasn't their service that was cancelled and on applying for a refund from Northern initially the poster was given a complimentary 2 day ticket for Northern services.

So it seems there is an issue with ticket offices giving refunds when trains are cancelled and you choose not to travel and giving out varying reasons for not giving a refund.

 

[thedbdiboy]

The drafting of 26(a) is not ideal which is why 26(b) was inserted in the last NRCoC revision to make absolutely clear that where a journey was abandoned due to cancellation/delay of a train, a full refund was due.

However, the main purpose of 26(a) was to avoid the situation where a person bought a ticket at the station, went onto the platform, discovered that the train was cancelled, went back to the ticket office only to be told that they had to fill in a form and wait a week to get their money back. It was written before the widespread use of internet booking sites and the DfT have acknowledged that in those cases it is not reasonable to force a ticket office to make the refund, hence the continued use of the phrase 'wherever possible'.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

In the case of Northern Rail offices, it is simply not possible to issue an immediate credit/debit card refund unless the ticket was purchased that day from that clerk. Other company's offices will likely have a very similar problem.

Whilst a ticket office could accept most refunds for processing, passengers who buy on the internet are advised to return the ticket to the seller. The reason for this is that the clerk will simply mail the refund to accounts who will forward it to the company that issued it, adding time to the refund process.

 

[RJ]

It was physically possible to do it where I worked. There is a function called Non Issue out of shift which can be used. In circumstances as described by the NRCoC, I was permitted to do that for customers.

As a matter of course, that function shouldn't be used to process refunds for tickets bought from another TOC as it causes balancing problems, audit flags and other headaches for the TOC. Have to go through the pink refund form procedure for that!

 

[maniacmartin]

Why can't the station issue the immediate refund and then claim it back from the issuing TOC/entity in their own time. I would say that that as long as the money is in the tills, then it is possible.

Balancing problems are of no concern to the passenger

 

[Olympian]

Why can't the station issue the immediate refund and then claim it back from the issuing TOC/entity in their own time. I would say that that as long as the money is in the tills, then it is possible.

Balancing problems are of no concern to the passenger

That's exactly how I'd always imagined it worked under 26(a) as it wasn't the passenger's fault their train was cancelled/delayed so why should they have to fork out postage costs etc. to get a refund if they chose not to travel but were still able to go to "any ticket office". If they couldn't do this then 26(b) could be used.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In the case of Northern Rail offices, it is simply not possible to issue an immediate credit/debit card refund unless the ticket was purchased that day from that clerk. Other company's offices will likely have a very similar problem.

Whilst a ticket office could accept most refunds for processing, passengers who buy on the internet are advised to return the ticket to the seller. The reason for this is that the clerk will simply mail the refund to accounts who will forward it to the company that issued it, adding time to the refund process.

But that doesn't match what their own Passenger Charter says a passenger can expect in these circumstances.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

I had a partial refund on a ticket bought online recently (no 1st class on the replacement for a failed train), and it was explained to me in the station ticket office that it would be refunded by customer services on the website involved, in my case, ScotRail. Took about a week but a cheque duly arrived. No postage costs to me, but 3 emails and two letters for them. That can't be the most efficient way of doing things surely?

 

[sheff1]

However, the main purpose of 26(a) was to avoid the situation where a person bought a ticket at the station, went onto the platform, discovered that the train was cancelled, went back to the ticket office only to be told that they had to fill in a form and wait a week to get their money back. It was written before the widespread use of internet booking sites and the DfT have acknowledged that in those cases it is not reasonable to force a ticket office to make the refund, hence the continued use of the phrase 'wherever possible'.

Far from continued use of the phrase 'wherever possible', this phrase was newly introduced in the May 2012 version of the NRCoC. The previous wording, in the October 2011 version, was 'if it is in a position to do so'.

To claim that either of these versions was written before the widespread use of internet booking sites is laughable.

If the intention is not to refund internet purchased tickets at a booking office, why not just say so ? Everyone would then know where they stood.

 

[richw]

OP as i see it, expecting Northern to refund a ticket bought from East Coast, is the same as trying to get Tesco to refund a product bought from Asda.
You need to take the ticket back to the company you bought it from for a refund.

 

[AlterEgo]

OP as i see it, expecting Northern to refund a ticket bought from East Coast, is the same as trying to get Tesco to refund a product bought from Asda.
You need to take the ticket back to the company you bought it from for a refund.

That may be so, but the NRCoC does not make that explicitly clear (and in fact suggests you can visit any station booking office with any ticket) for an abandoned journey refund.

 

[Mojo]

OP as i see it, expecting Northern to refund a ticket bought from East Coast, is the same as trying to get Tesco to refund a product bought from Asda.

Not really a fair comparison surely, unless Asda have started selling products on behalf of Tesco, and there are joint conditions and a history of joint operations between what are typically geographically distinct supermarkets?

 

[johnb]

A fairer comparison would be if you bought an Orange PAYG mobile top-up in a Tesco Express, the top-up failed to load on your phone, and Orange told you that they couldn't do anything about it and you had to take it back to Tesco.

(the above is the opposite of what would happens in real life in this situation, because mobile phone operators aren't completely stark raving mad)

 

[yorkie]

OP as i see it, expecting Northern to refund a ticket bought from East Coast, is the same as trying to get Tesco to refund a product bought from Asda.
You need to take the ticket back to the company you bought it from for a refund.

Really? So there is a supermarket equivalent of RSP?

As there isn't, such comparisons don't work and are meaningless.

 

[Olympian]

I had a partial refund on a ticket bought online recently (no 1st class on the replacement for a failed train), and it was explained to me in the station ticket office that it would be refunded by customer services on the website involved, in my case, ScotRail. Took about a week but a cheque duly arrived. No postage costs to me, but 3 emails and two letters for them. That can't be the most efficient way of doing things surely?

That certainly doesn't sound like the most efficient way of doing that, but what you're talking about is retrospective compensation for no 1st class rather than an immediate refund for an abandoned journey that wasn't made.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That may be so, but the NRCoC does not make that explicitly clear (and in fact suggests you can visit any station booking office with any ticket) for an abandoned journey refund.

Precisely; and Northern's own Passenger Charter seems to be even clearer in respect of it not mattering where the ticket was bought (my bold):

If you decide not to use a ticket you have bought you can apply for a refund where you purchased your ticket within 28 days of the expiry date shown on the ticket. We will normally charge an administration fee of £10, unless we have been at fault. Tickets purchased from a travel agent or via another operator’s telesales must be returned to the issuing office for refund. Special conditions apply to Advance purchase peoducts.

However, if your train is delayed or cancelled and you decide not to travel, you will be entitled to a full immediate refund. You may apply at any booking office, regardless of the ticket type and where it was bought.

The RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide is, perhaps unsurprisingly, even clearer still:

9.6.2 Refunds due to Disruption
If your journey is disrupted and you choose not to travel, you can obtain an immediate refund with no administration fee if you surrender your ticket to a Train Company at that time (this does not apply if you knew about the disruption when you purchased your ticket).

Can someone with access to The Manual please tell me what it says in respect of these immediate refunds as I'm interested to know whether staff are formally told something different to passengers?

 

[barrykas]

Condition 26(a) is perfectly clear, as is the section of The Manual dealing with Refunds.

Stations MUST (their emphasis) accept and arrange an immediate full refund on an unused ticket if the claim arises because a train has been cancelled or delayed or a reservation cannot be honoured.

Obviously there are certain circumstances where it's not possible to give the refund immediately, such as not having sufficient cash on hand, or card refunds being processed centrally, but that doesn't excuse stations referring such cases back to the original seller like most do where 26(a) aplies...

 

[richw]

Really? So there is a supermarket equivalent of RSP?

As there isn't, such comparisons don't work and are meaningless.

The comparison does work when you look both these companies sell products for the same companies...birds eye, Nestle, Walkers etc, you wouldnt take a Nestle product you bought in Asda back to Tesco, it is exactly the same theory.

 

[maniacmartin]

Supermarkets don't have the NRCoC which states that they are all agents selling each others' services for a start. (Section 1). I don't think its a useful analogy.

 

[barrykas]

The Manual has the following to say on the matter:

Applications for refund which you MUST accept

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage (Condition 26) states you must:

• Accept and deal with to a conclusion, applications for refunds on tickets and reservations issued by your Train Company
• Accept and arrange an immediate full refund on an unused ticket if the claim arises because a train has been cancelled or delayed or a reservation cannot be honoured. In some cases the right to receive a refund may be restricted e.g. those with an advance purchase requirement
• Accept applications for refunds on tickets and reservations sold by other Train Companies and forward those applications to the Customer Services Manager of the station where the ticket was sold. Some tickets show the name of the issuing office. If this is not shown then obtain the National Location Code (NLC) from the ticket and use RJIS or your ticket issuing system or contact Atos Origin Network Control to find the name of the selling office. Forward the refund application to the Customer Services Manager responsible for the selling office (see end of this Section).

Refunds on tickets if a train is delayed or cancelled

National Rail Conditions of Carriage (Condition 26a) refers

Example:

Shrewsbury – London Terminals ticket

1. Off-Peak Return purchased with cash on the day of travel, presented for refund at the issuing office because the customer’s train is cancelled – pay full refund in cash if funds allow.
2. Off-Peak Return purchased with cash in advance of travel from a travel agent presented at the ticket office for refund because the customer’s train is cancelled – pay full refund in cash if funds allow.
3. Off-Peak Return purchased with a credit card or warrant in advance of travel at another station ticket office, telephone sales office or internet website, presented for refund because the customer’s train is cancelled – arrange full refund regardless of where the ticket is purchased. Arrange credit to the relevant account.
4. Advanced purchased tickets paid with cash, cheque, credit card or warrant at any office presented for refund because the customer’s train is cancelled – arrange full refund.

This Condition entitles a customer whose train is delayed or cancelled or whose reservation cannot be honoured, to an immediate full refund for any wholly unused ticket if they present the ticket to any ticket office. Although the following examples give guidance on how this condition should be applied you should always follow your Train Company’s instructions.

Paying out refunds on tickets when a train is delayed or cancelled

Establish the method of payment for the ticket. This is printed after the price of a ticket:

• M indicates payment by cash
• Q indicates payment by cheque
• X indicates payment by credit/charge/debit card
• W indicates payment by warrant.
• V indicates payment wholly by Compensation Voucher or Rail Travel Voucher

If payment was made with cash, non-issue the ticket and pay back cash to the customer. If this is not possible the ticket office should ensure a refunds claims application is complete. Cancel the ticket and process the application as a normal refund and refund the customer cash regardless of where the ticket was sold.

If payment was made by cheque, non-issue the ticket and return the cheque to the customer. If this is not possible the ticket office should ensure a refunds claims application is complete. Cancel the ticket and process the application as a normal refund and refund the customer cash regardless of whether the ticket was a remote issue or travel agent’s issue.

If payment was made by warrant, return the warrant to the customer and non-issue the ticket. If this is not possible the ticket office should ensure a refunds claims application is complete Cancel the ticket and process as a normal warrant refund. Advise the customer the refund will be paid to the warrant account holder. A cash refund is not allowed.

If payment was made by credit/charge/debit card, a cash refund is not allowed. Follow your Train Company’s / Retailer’s instructions.

If payment was wholly made by Compensation /Rail Travel Vouchers the ticket office should ensure a refunds claims application is completed. Cancel the ticket and process the claim as normal or forward the claim to your Customer Services Manager as appropriate.

In all cases do not charge the administration fee.

 

[maniacmartin]

Many thanks barrykas. The only sticking point appears to be tickets bought elsewhere, with a card (presumably due to bank rules?). If so, then there is an advantage to buying tickets with cash, if that makes them easier to refund.

 

[Olympian]

Thanks from me also Barrykas. The Manual is certainly comprehensive in respect of immediate refunds.

My ticket was an Advance single purchased from East Coast website and by Credit Card.

Advanced purchased tickets paid with cash, cheque, credit card or warrant at any office presented for refund because the customer’s train is cancelled – arrange full refund.

This seems to confirm that I should indeed have received a full refund, however it then says for refunding a credit card transaction

If payment was made by credit/charge/debit card, a cash refund is not allowed. Follow your Train Company’s / Retailer’s instructions.

So what instructions are you given? Is this just about how you physically do the refund on your card terminal but it's still done there and then (although will obviously take a couple of days to show on the credit card account)?

 

[thedbdiboy]

Far from continued use of the phrase 'wherever possible', this phrase was newly introduced in the May 2012 version of the NRCoC. The previous wording, in the October 2011 version, was 'if it is in a position to do so'.

To claim that either of these versions was written before the widespread use of internet booking sites is laughable.

If the intention is not to refund internet purchased tickets at a booking office, why not just say so ? Everyone would then know where they stood.

The 2012 version went through a plain English check - the meaning was not changed. The phrase was first introduced in the 2006 conditions, when internet booking of rail tickets was a far smaller proportion of ticket sales than it is now.

 

[bnm]

This seems to confirm that I should indeed have received a full refund

But it doesn't say that it should be paid immediately, just 'arranged'. That could mean just completing some paperwork and forwarding said paperwork to the original retailer for them to issue the refund.

 

[barrykas]

So what instructions are you given? Is this just about how you physically do the refund on your card terminal but it's still done there and then (although will obviously take a couple of days to show on the credit card account)?

Depends on the TOC (and sometimes on the station). In our case, we can pay card refunds up to £50 on the window, over that they have to go to station accounts.

Similarly, we can pay cash refunds up to £200 (subject to available cash!) on the spot. Anything greater than that is generally paid by cheque.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Skymonster]

So "wherever possible" and all that guff about "any station" and "wherever purchased" are just weasel words that a TOC can use to get out of making an immediate refund, as most rational people would believe they'd get after reading the NRCoC - gotta send it to another office, haven't got enough cash, can't process a card refund for more than £xx... Excuses, excuses. As usual the situation favours the TOC, not the passenger. Wouldn't it just be wonderful if occasionally there was a "wherever possible" that favoured the passenger - e.g. Passenger travelling on an advance ticket should use the booked train wherever possible, passengers on a standard class ticket should sit in standard class wherever possible...? Ha! Fat chance! The Ts&Cs never seem to give the passenger as much wriggle room as the railway gets. If there are caveats to giving an immediate refund, these should be explicitly spelled out, not hidden behind a generic excuse that can be invoked whenever the TOC feels like it and without the passenger being aware.

 

[34D]

Many thanks barrykas. The only sticking point appears to be tickets bought elsewhere, with a card (presumably due to bank rules?).

Yes. Can you imagine all the customers who received a refund on their ALR by cash or cheque and then go on to 'charge back' their credit card?

 

[Greenback]

So "wherever possible" and all that guff about "any station" and "wherever purchased" are just weasel words that a TOC can use to get out of making an immediate refund, as most rational people would believe they'd get after reading the NRCoC - gotta send it to another office, haven't got enough cash, can't process a card refund for more than £xx... Excuses, excuses. As usual the situation favours the TOC, not the passenger. Wouldn't it just be wonderful if occasionally there was a "wherever possible" that favoured the passenger - e.g. Passenger travelling on an advance ticket should use the booked train wherever possible, passengers on a standard class ticket should sit in standard class wherever possible...? Ha! Fat chance! The Ts&Cs never seem to give the passenger as much wriggle room as the railway gets. If there are caveats to giving an immediate refund, these should be explicitly spelled out, not hidden behind a generic excuse that can be invoked whenever the TOC feels like it and without the passenger being aware.

There so many reasons why it may not be possible to provide a full refund on the spot that it would be a very long list.

In practice, of course, there are many travellers who are daily treated more favourably - either by train crew showing discretion on board the train, or by the application of the rules on not having to buy a new ticket when combining two or more Advance tickets.

While it is fair enough to say that the TOC's aren't as customer focused as they might be in certain situations, but they do not always act in a draconian fashion against passengers either.

 

[aelius]

Used to be different.

Several years ago an East Coast train was cancelled (may be NX or even GNER). Even though the ticket was purchased on the Internet, the ticket office at Newcastle arranged an 100% refund and was able to purchase replacement tickets.

Similar situation last November - East Coast ticket office at Newcastle could not do it. Nor could it be done on line. Tickets had to be sent recorded delivery to Wolverhampton. Letter lost. Two months later after further letters and emails refund received. Alternative tickets bought on-line and had to pay - out of pocket until refund received. Had made replacement journey before got refund.

And just realised no refund of cost of recorded delivery postage!

Progress!