Request for help: LNER Fare Trial Ripoff

[Fermiboson]

Has anyone with a larger audience (eg Rail Focus, Geoff Marshall, Jago Hazzard etc) considered a video on the topic (and/or has OP considered reaching out for collab)? I recall Geoff did a video on the changes to the Z1-6 travelcards sometime last year.

 

[AlterEgo]

Has anyone with a larger audience (eg Rail Focus, Geoff Marshall, Jago Hazzard etc) considered a video on the topic (and/or has OP considered reaching out for collab)? I recall Geoff did a video on the changes to the Z1-6 travelcards sometime last year.

My YouTube channel has a different - and larger - audience than the creators you mention. There’s a little crossover of course, but I am hoping to hit a different cross section of audience than people who (should) know all about it already.

 

[Fermiboson]

My YouTube channel has a different - and larger - audience than the creators you mention. There’s a little crossover of course, but I am hoping to hit a different cross section of audience than people who (should) know all about it already.

Well, forgive my ignorance! Good luck with making the video.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well, forgive my ignorance! Good luck with making the video.

(It would still be really good for those creators to do something though!)

 

[MrJeeves]

My YouTube channel has a different - and larger - audience than the creators you mention. There’s a little crossover of course, but I am hoping to hit a different cross section of audience than people who (should) know all about it already.

Hadn't even made the link between your forum and YouTube accounts until now!

 

[wilbers]

Maybe when the Northumberland line opens Geoff Marshall [I know he has already done at least one video about that] can go to Newcastle on an LNER advance, and back on a super off-peak from Manors - and in that case actually use Manors station (even if not getting off the train) rather than starting from Newcastle with that ticket.

 

[BRX]

It would be good to get Moneysavingexpert.com interested in this.

 

[redreni]

From Edinburgh to London I guess WCML (Avanti) is an option.

From the other city involved in LNER's rip-off pilot, Newcastle, on the last two occasions I've needed to get back to London after a football match it has been significantly cheaper to fly direct to LHR and that is what I have done. It doesn't save any time compared to the train because I live on the opposite side of London to Heathrow Airport, but it is competitive on time and it is cheaper even when train fare home from Heathrow is factored in. It's difficult to find a train alternative to LNER that isn't desperately slow (e.g. Cross Country via Nottingham or Birmingham). All of the above was true even before the rip-off pilot and remains true even when you compare the air fare to the over-distance or split-ticket options that you can use to retain access to the off-peak single fare.

It may be too much of a detailed or nerdy point for the video you want to make, but I think it's really important to get across that even where walk-up fares still exist, it can be quite difficult for people to get those tickets without 'lying' to a journey planner (whether a journey planner-based TVM or a website or app) about when you want to travel if the train operator has flagged the service as reservations compulsory and all the reserved places have gone.

Many (perhaps most) passengers will be quite unaware that they have every right to buy the walk-up fare, even if they have to search for a journey they have no intention of making in order to be offered it, and travel on any train for which that ticket is valid (even if it's not possible to reserve a seat on that train). This is not a failing of LNER or any other train company; the fewer people know they can do that the better, as far as they are concerned. They would rather people didn't travel by train than have them buying good value tickets and causing overcrowding. It's about papering over the lack of capacity and extracting as much revenue as possible from the limited number of passengers who can be accommodated by our capacity-constrained network.

 

[Hadders]

My advice would be to try and keep the message you want to get across in the video very simple. Concentrate on just one or two key themes. We're experts on here and love getting into the minute detail of what this trial means but the majority of the public aren't interested in that.

These are probably the key messages you want to get across:

1. The Advance Flex ticket is fare more restrictive than the Super Off Peak Single ticket it replaced
2. Fares have increased significantly as a result of the trial, especially at weekends

I wouldn't talk too much about Manors or Haymarket being workarounds because it suggests there's a way round the issue. I know there is - for now - but this won't continue as DfT/LNER want to roll this out everywhere.

 

[alastair]

The vast majority of "normal" LNER customers are still buying the same/similar tickets as they always bought - Advance singles. That is why, despite occasional media attention, it's not cutting through to your typical passenger. Same with mandatory reservations, most people would agree that intercity style trains shouldn't allow standing customers and all passengers allocated a seat.

Would be most interested to know how that would work at my local station (Totnes) which is only served by "intercity style" trains (GW and XC)! Surely you are not suggesting everyone buying (say) a day return to Exeter or Plymouth be "allocated a seat". And how would you prevent them boarding a full train with no seats available (fortunately very rare west of Exeter)?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Maybe when the Northumberland line opens Geoff Marshall [I know he has already done at least one video about that] can go to Newcastle on an LNER advance, and back on a super off-peak from Manors - and in that case actually use Manors station (even if not getting off the train) rather than starting from Newcastle with that ticket.

Why not just buy one to Ashington?

 

[infobleep]

Hadn't even made the link between your forum and YouTube accounts until now!

I still haven't but hopefully I won't need to and a link will be provided to the video in due course.

 

[Iskra]

This sounds a great venture @AlterEgo , assuming this video is successful, can I suggest you do a similar video on Scotrail's Peak-time fare abolition, which is presumably a great success?

 

[Iskra]

It would also be good if you recommend a way around this pricing to consumers, ie using Avanti, Open Access, splitting or choosing a minor station to travel to/from instead of an LNER one. Or, any other ways round people have discovered.

 

[Fermiboson]

I have a feeling they may be getting wise to all the Haymarket people and will soon impose some kind of ticket restriction on this. There are also multiple problems trying to reserve itineries on flexible tickets from out of London destinations to and from Edinburgh where the core intercity leg is from king's cross with LNER, I was contemplating using an Andover to Edinburgh off-peak return a couple of weeks ago but whilst I could generate the itineries booking engines either would not sell me it at all or would offer to sell it but without reservations as they were not available

From a PR perspective if they need to impose ticket restrictions it’s their loss - it shows that the trial is not in the interest of the public and that they have determined as such - and besides, one can always actually go to Haymarket if a BoJ restriction is added, use any of the other multitudes of stations in the vicinity of Edinburgh, or split somewhere else. It would be hard to close the loophole without extending the trial so much it is no longer a trial. That said, they can always make life as difficult as possible…

 

[yorksrob]

From a PR perspective if they need to impose ticket restrictions it’s their loss - it shows that the trial is not in the interest of the public and that they have determined as such - and besides, one can always actually go to Haymarket if a BoJ restriction is added, use any of the other multitudes of stations in the vicinity of Edinburgh, or split somewhere else. It would be hard to close the loophole without extending the trial so much it is no longer a trial. That said, they can always make life as difficult as possible…

Which might hopefully generate enough bad publicity to get the scam scrapped.

 

[KGX]

Their ticketing policies are awful these days. Not only have they massively increased the price of advances, they now charge significantly more for advances to travel from Durham or Darlington to London than they do from Newcastle. Wild West.

 

[Egg Centric]

- Alternatives other than taking Haymarket-London Off Peak Return, or taking Lumo - anything more interesting or cheaper? Creative ways to avoid LNER!

Have you looked into contacting any of the pilots who advertise on wingly to see if they'd be willing to fly you from Edinburgh to some London airfield for say £200?

I appreciate this is not a 'sensible' comparison (and also the £200 would not even cover the avgas but that's partly the point of wingly, it's not commercial), but it is interesting and creative!

 

[HullRailMan]

Not sure if it helps, but I’ve noticed that LNER have seemingly stopped making advances available on their one a day Hull services (0700 from Hull, 1718 from KGX) Mon-Thurs. for example, looking at next week, a single on either of these trains Mon-Fri is coming up at £149.70 which is the any permitted anytime single. On Friday, advances are available and the price drops to £47.20!

If I travel on Monday to London on the 0700 and return to Hull on the 1718 there is no return fare available so it’s two anytime singles and a whopping £299.40. First class, where advances are available, is an eye watering £451.20 for two first class advances. The same journey on Friday would be £94.40 in standard (2 advance singles) and £146.40 in first, also 2 advance singles.

For comparison, a fully flexible anytime return with Hull Trains is £185 standard and £300 first class, and advances are still available on every HT service next week. Using Monday again as an example, I could take the 0626 to London and the 1548 (both peak time trains) return for £151.50 std (2 advances) or £206 in first (2advances).

Hard to argue that LNER are not a rip off when HT peak time fares are 50% less on the same day.

 

[greyman42]

Which might hopefully generate enough bad publicity to get the scam scrapped.

Their original scam was the removal of return tickets that were replaced with dearer singles and they got away with that.

 

[yorksrob]

Their original scam was the removal of return tickets that were replaced with dearer singles and they got away with that.

Indeed, but I'm not aware of the consequence as being so dire for passengers as this.

Single fares don't by themselves lead to higher overall fares, although their association with LNER has tarnished any benefit they may have had.

 

[sheff1]

It may be too much of a detailed or nerdy point for the video you want to make, but I think it's really important to get across that even where walk-up fares still exist, it can be quite difficult for people to get those tickets without 'lying' to a journey planner (whether a journey planner-based TVM or a website or app) about when you want to travel if the train operator has flagged the service as reservations compulsory and all the reserved places have gone. Many (perhaps most) passengers will be quite unaware that they have every right to buy the walk-up fare, even if they have to search for a journey they have no intention of making in order to be offered it, and travel on any train for which that ticket is valid (even if it's not possible to reserve a seat on that train).

Agree that this is a very good point, but also not sure how you would get it across to the stated audience (but I am not a video maker!)

This is not a failing of LNER or any other train company; the fewer people know they can do that the better, as far as they are concerned. They would rather people didn't travel by train than have them buying good value tickets and causing overcrowding.

Re overcrowding - I have noticed the last few times I have travelled on LNER using trains on where the London - Newcastle/Edinburgh flows are shown as fully booked. or only have Anytime tickets for sale, there have been plenty of seats, and not just in the 'unreserved' coach (my journeys have been between Doncaster, York & Darlington).

 

[43066]

Good morning!

I'm in the process of making a YouTube video highlighting LNER's gross ripoff fares as a result of their trial and the fake "compulsory" reservation policy. I'm going to fly from Edinburgh to London, via Amsterdam with KLM, in 3h15m - my plane ticket is cheaper than the fully flexible fare, but not cheaper than the old off peak fares. I'm going to use the stunt to outline the squeezing of punters on the ECML and the ripoff currently in progress with the trial.

Hopefully the viewer pipeline is "Wow what a stupid stunt, who does this? > Ok wow LNER is a rip off I did not realise this > Oh ok you don't need to fly, here are some alternative ways of saving"

To avoid cluttering the original thread - which is huge - could some posters help me clarify my thinking and help with some examples? This is going to be a general video which does not get into the technical aspects of ticketing, so I'd really like the hive mind's help with:

- Instances you've seen where only the flexible fare has been on sale (dates/major events?)
- Instances you've seen where NO tickets were sold as "reservations were all gone" (dates/major events)
- Alternatives other than taking Haymarket-London Off Peak Return, or taking Lumo - anything more interesting or cheaper? Creative ways to avoid LNER!
- Examples of any hardship or irritation you've suffered - had to make a distress or urgent journey and found your ticket more expensive than the old off peak?
- Examples where you've seen the Advance fares on your trip rise - because the Off Peak cap has now gone?
- Tales of LNER journeys, have you had any particularly bad ones since the trial?

Also, if you could sum up the trial in one sentence, please do - what it means to you, or what you think the aim is generally. I'd really like some perspectives which aren't my own to give some backing to the video!

Thanks.

Interested to see how this turns out.

A useful point to push might be how this is actually a showcase of government policy (as LNER is OLR); namely to make the UK railway smaller, more overcrowded, yet more expensive and less flexible for users - as also demonstrated by cancellation of HS2 etc.

Appreciate you won’t wish to be too political but just focussing on LNER as a brand risks missing the important point that they’re only doing what they’re told by their paymasters; this policy is a trial, masterminded by DfT/government, that may well roll out network wide if judged a success.

Best of luck with it.

 

[wilbers]

Why not just buy one to Ashington?

or that I suppose. Its just that return (or two singles) ticket prices for London-Ashington aren't available to check what they are yet (since Ashington isn't on the station list of journey planners yet). I assume off-peak and/or super off-peak will appear and LNER won't be blocking them.

 

[Kite159]

Their ticketing policies are awful these days. Not only have they massively increased the price of advances, they now charge significantly more for advances to travel from Durham or Darlington to London than they do from Newcastle. Wild West.

The competition effect of having Lumo at Newcastle and only LNER (direct) at Darlington+ Durham. Although that was happening last year as well

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

One of the main problems with this 'innovative' approach is the woeful lack of information to the public about what is really going on. All the self-congratulatory stuff from LNER/GBRTT people reproduced above neatly obscures the point that this is just a major fares rise on the busier trains.

Underneath, one is being offered the 'choice' between super expensive unrestricted fares and two kinds of quota-controlled book ahead fares. The highest price version of the latter, valid +/-70 mins either side if quotas are available is considerably more expensive than the old 'Saver' fares. The lowest price version, the Advance, remains but can now be set at higher levels as it is not constrained by the former 'Saver' fares. Thus, the main fares safeguard put in at privatisation (which was to regulate the Saver fare) has been binned.

The PR was so good that even the famous 'Man in Seat 61' didn't clock what was happening until others pointed it out to him!

If the trial continues, it is highly likely that most LNER fares will switch over to the new deregulated system, followed by West Coast and GWR as they fall under directly DfT control.....

 

[pinkmarie80]

I did an alternative route on Saturday from Newcastle to London due to the LNER strike.
LNER train- 95 (I have a railcard)
XC to Sheffield and then EMR to London- £58.
This involved several split tickets but was nearly half the price of the LNER.

 

[Fermiboson]

Perhaps thought could also be given to referencing the LNER simpler fares internal staff brief (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ... Simpler Fares Pilot.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1) which is as self-incriminating of a document as could be hoped for. In particular, this gem which I hadn’t noticed on first read a while back:

We acknowledge that there might ordinarily be some customers who purchase off-peak fares on the day of travel and in some cases only the Anytime fare wil now be available at short notice. This could of course have some impact on fare evasion and ticketless travel. At present, ticketless travel on LNER is under 2% - we will monitor the effect of this change closely as part of our evaluation and would welcome any feedback from revenue protection and other frontline colleagues on this subject. Meanwhile, this change also reduces the risk of fraudulent delay repay claims using flexible products.

 

[andythebrave]

Perhaps thought could also be given to referencing the LNER simpler fares internal staff brief (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/lner_simpler_fares_pilot/response/2553987/attach/5/Staff Brief Simpler Fares Pilot.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1) which is as self-incriminating of a document as could be hoped for. In particular, this gem which I hadn’t noticed on first read a while back:

'Evaluation' - spits out my good Scotch darn it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps thought could also be given to referencing the LNER simpler fares internal staff brief (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/lner_simpler_fares_pilot/response/2553987/attach/5/Staff Brief Simpler Fares Pilot.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1) which is as self-incriminating of a document as could be hoped for. In particular, this gem which I hadn’t noticed on first read a while back:

Ironically I'd have (very slightly) less of a problem with it if they'd been honest to the public in the same manner as that document is, i.e. "DfT insist we make more money so this is how we are going to try doing it".

That they've outright lied to the public (as evidenced by that document) means they've gone in my eyes from most respected IC operator to dirt on my shoe. I cannot abide dishonesty. If you have to do bad stuff, as is sometimes necessary in the real world, be honest and tell me why.