Reserving Seats with a Season Ticket

[Haywain]

They are not complementary but integral to the product.

Complementary is something which enhances the product but is not essential.

If I book a seat and there is no seat then I will not travel.

I guess you wouldn't travel on any services that didn't offer the option of reserving a seat then. If that's the case then fine but many people do, every day of every week.

 

[sefton]

They are complimentary

Apologies you are right, there is a complimentary element when you buy a ticket on LNER and reserve a seat.

However it isn't the seat reservation that is complimentary, but the right to travel that is complimentary.

Under LNER's 'Seat Guarantee' scheme even if the train runs but they cannot provide you with a seat then they refund you in full and the journey is free. That must mean the value and what you have paid for is the seat, and the complimentary element is the right to travel.

If the seat reservation was complimentary and they couldn't provide one, then they wouldn't have to refund anything.

I guess you wouldn't travel on any services that didn't offer the option of reserving a seat then. If that's the case, then fine but many people do, every day of every week.

You are correct.

I won't travel on any service where I cannot be certain of a seat.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

What is exaggerated about expecting to receive what you have paid for.

you have paid to be conveyed. seasons tickets are both discounted and flexible based on regular use .

if you want a reservation you either buy a ticket which includes a reservation or you make reservation via the operator of the service in question

 

[Starmill]

You only have the right to carriage. LNER follows on from VTEC's policy of giving a Delay Repay-style payment if you can't find a seat, having reserved one, but this is unique

It didn't used to be the case. My 2011 edition of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage includes this provision:

41. Refund of reservation fees

If a seat reservation, sleeper reservation or cycle reservation is not honoured, the Train Company responsible will refund any reservation fee paid. If the Train Company is unable to provide alternative equivalent accommodation for you or your cycle, you will be compensated for the inconvenience. The value of the compensation will be no more than the price of the full single fare for the journey

Even now, apparently without the above in the current version of NRCoT, I would not say that it is quite 'unique' to London North Eastern Railway to offer compensation to passengers who have seat reservations but have to stand:

Many of our tickets already include seat reservations on specified trains. Even if you buy your ticket through another operator, you can ask them to reserve you a seat free of charge when travelling with us. If for some reason we cannot honour your reservation please ask a member of the on-board team for help. Our staff will try their best to find you a seat.

If you are still without a seat after 20 minutes a member of the on-board team will be happy to endorse your ticket if you ask. You may send your endorsed ticket in to our Customer Relations Team who will give you National Rail Vouchers to the value of at least 5% of the price for that journey in recognition of our inability to honour your seat reservation.

Seat reservations for TransPennine Express services can be booked up
to 18:00 hours on the day before travel.
If we do not provide you with your reserved seat, and there are no
other seats available, we will compensate you:
• If you have a reserved seat but have had to stand, we will refund you
50% of the single leg cost of your journey.
• If you have booked a seat in First Class but there is only one
available in Standard Class, we will refund the difference between the
fare you paid and the equivalent Standard Class fare.
This will be paid in e-vouchers, redeemable on our website, or National
Rail travel vouchers. To make your claim, please ensure that the
conductor on-board endorses your ticket or reservation coupon. Please
ensure claims are made within 28 days of the date of travel.

It remains the case now that if your reservation (either for a seat or a bike) is not honoured, you can choose a full refund and to abandon your journey.

 

[sefton]

It remains the case now that if your reservation (either for a seat or a bike) is not honoured, you can choose a full refund and to abandon your journey.

So the reservation has a value and is not complimentary, since if it was complimentary and it wasn't provided you wouldn't be offered the decision as to whether to travel or not.

 

[Haywain]

So the reservation has a value and is not complimentary, since if it was complimentary and it wasn't provided you wouldn't be offered the decision as to whether to travel or not.

The reason you are offered a refund in those circumstances is because you choose not to travel. If the train you have chosen to travel on is delayed you have a right to a full refund even if you do not have a reservation. Since you believe that travel is complimentary then that should clearly not be offered!

 

[sefton]

The reason you are offered a refund in those circumstances is because you choose not to travel. If the train you have chosen to travel on is delayed you have a right to a full refund even if you do not have a reservation. Since you believe that travel is complimentary then that should clearly not be offered!

You have received a refund because the seat couldn't be provided. Full refund because no seat = not complimentary.

It is quite straightforward.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Personally I'm not convinced. Doesn't there also need to be no standing room available in first class for it to be "fully occupied" as NRCoT condition 31 describes it?

Condition 3.3 of the NRCoT makes clear that, if the timetable indicates that first class accomodation is available on a train, first class ticket holders are entitled to a refund of the first class "excess" if they cannot find a seat.

 

[Haywain]

You have received a refund because the seat couldn't be provided. Full refund because no seat = not complimentary.

It is quite straightforward.

Full refund because not travelling. Not the same thing at all. But feel free to continue being wrong as I won't be arguing this any further.

 

[sefton]

Full refund because not travelling. Not the same thing at all. But feel free to continue being wrong as I won't be arguing this any further.

But normally you don't get the option to change your mind about traveling and get a full refund if the train is running on time.

You only get that option if you have a reserved seat and a seat is not available. So you cannot argue the seat reservation has no value and is complimentary.

It is an intrinsic part of the product and if it cannot be delivered the customer can get all their money back.

 

[Wallsendmag]

LNER seat reservations are free and therefore are complimentary. How much harder you make to make it so that the answer fits your argument is up to you.

 

[sefton]

LNER seat reservations are free and therefore are complimentary. How much harder you make to make it so that the answer fits your argument is up to you.

You have a strange (and incorrect) understanding of complimentary, failing to understand the difference between it and an integral part of the contract.

If LNER don't serve my complimentary cup of tea I cannot cancel my train ticket and receive a full refund, whereas I can if they fail to provide the seat they have contacted to do.

 

[AM9]

You have a strange (and incorrect) understanding of complimentary, failing to understand the difference between it and an integral part of the contract.

If LNER don't serve my complimentary cup of tea I cannot cancel my train ticket and receive a full refund, whereas I can if they fail to provide the seat they have contacted to do.

Just

This is a misconception. There are many, many routes where five of the cheapest (Super) Off Peak return tickets would cost less, sometimes considerably less, than a 7 Day Season.

Well many, maybe even a majority of season tickets are similarly priced to (and sometimes less than) restricted availability off-peak tickets for the same journey. This thread is about travel from Retford To London (assume Kings Cross)

The cheapest off-peak return ticket is a CDR at £54.00
A weekly season from RET to KGX is priced at £23.63 each way (so £47.26 for Anytime travel)​

Given that most season tickets are annual, then the fare would be £40.72, that's just 75% of a limited validity walk-up fare. Even allowing for the 1.5% interest the railway gets from an annual ticket, it's still a far better deal than some season holders try to make out.

 

[sefton]

Well many, maybe even a majority of season tickets are similarly priced to (and sometimes less than) restricted availability off-peak tickets for the same journey. This thread is about travel from Retford To London (assume Kings Cross)

The cheapest off-peak return ticket is a CDR at £54.00
A weekly season from RET to KGX is priced at £23.63 each way (so £47.26 for Anytime travel)​

Given that most season tickets are annual, then the fare would be £40.72, that's just 75% of a limited validity walk-up fare. Even allowing for the 1.5% interest the railway gets from an annual ticket, it's still a far better deal than some season holders try to make out.

You would also need to take into account the person buying a return is using it for a journey they will make.

However the train company is selling an annual ticket knowing full well there will be many occasions the customer won't use it so those need to be offset in the calculation.

 

[AM9]

You would also need to take into account the person buying a return is using it for a journey they will make.

This thread is talking about a weekly season vs three return tickets. Even if the travel could be completed within the fairly narrow windows available to off-peak travel on the ECML, it would cost at least £162. For weekly season tickets it is most likely that they would be used for 5 days travel (M-F) which is what the RET-KGX weekly is priced at less than five off-peak walk-up tickets.

However the train company is selling an annual ticket knowing full well there will be many occasions the customer won't use it so those need to be offset in the calculation.

The annual season tickets are calculated on the basis of 232 return journeys. In the example I gave, that is 75% of the walk-up off-peak (or 28% of an Anytime return meaning that if the holder travelled just 66 days in the year they would be paying less than with walk-up fares). I'm sure that almost every annual season ticket gets much more use than that!

 

[Starmill]

I would say it's fairly unusual for anyone to make a daily commute that's so expensive that a 7 Day Season is cheaper than five (Super) Off Peak Return tickets. A very cursory check reveals that the 7 Day Season costs more for 5 return journeys to London from all of Milton Keynes Central, Peterborough, Tonbridge and Guildford.

I'm not completely sure why this point is important, but there it is.

 

[Haywain]

I would say it's fairly unusual for anyone to make a daily commute that's so expensive that a 7 Day Season is cheaper than five (Super) Off Peak Return tickets. A very cursory check reveals that the 7 Day Season costs more for 5 return journeys to London from all of Milton Keynes Central, Peterborough, Tonbridge and Guildford.

For Peterborough the season is cheaper than 5 Off Peak Day Returns or Super Off Peak Returns for route Any Permitted.

 

[AM9]

I would say it's fairly unusual for anyone to make a daily commute that's so expensive that a 7 Day Season is cheaper than five (Super) Off Peak Return tickets. A very cursory check reveals that the 7 Day Season costs more for 5 return journeys to London from all of Milton Keynes Central, Peterborough, Tonbridge and Guildford.

I'm not completely sure why this point is important, but there it is.

Because:

a) the thread is about a commute from Retford to London so travel from other locations is irrelevant
b) the thread is also about season ticket holders being able to reserve their favourite seats (possibly) every day
c) many (even most) season tickets are priced such that Anytime travel can be made at less cost than walk-up tickets​

So in my opinion, for a group of travellers whose fares are effectively heavily subsidised to be able to block reserve at no extra cost seats which on some routes would prevent most walk-up passengers (who would likely have paid over twice the fare for the same journey) getting any seat, is an abuse of a public service provision.

 

[sefton]

So in my opinion, for a group of travellers whose fares are effectively heavily subsidised to be able to block reserve at no extra cost seats which on some routes would prevent most walk-up passengers (who would likely have paid over twice the fare for the same journey) getting any seat, is an abuse of a public service provision.

Just because the season ticket holders pay less per journey does not mean they are subsidised by the walk up passenger who pays more for one journey, and in all likelihood it is the other way around.

 

[_toommm_]

Or just do what I do and buy advances - my commute with advances is £100pcm vs. £356.80pcm with a season! (This is based on me travelling 5 to 6 days a week on advances and returning back home between shifts too)

 

[Starmill]

a) the thread is about a commute from Retford to London so travel from other locations is irrelevant

You made an incorrect statement about all season tickets in order to advance your agenda. It was not me that brought 'other locations' into it.

b) the thread is also about season ticket holders being able to reserve their favourite seats (possibly) every day

Is it? That's what Haywain decided to do some complaining about (for some reason). It doesn't seem to be what the OP wanted to talk about though.

c) many (even most) season tickets are priced such that Anytime travel can be made at less cost than walk-up tickets

For most journeys into London that people are actually likely to do every day, I have found the opposite to be true.

So in my opinion, for a group of travellers whose fares are effectively heavily subsidised to be able to block reserve at no extra cost seats which on some routes would prevent most walk-up passengers (who would likely have paid over twice the fare for the same journey) getting any seat, is an abuse of a public service provision.

Are the railways run as a public service? The Department for Transport demands a premium from the East Coast route, regardless of who is running it. The main purpose of these services seems to me to be to generate this revenue, not serve the public interest. How good at serving the public interest are the DfT?

Even if one makes the case that they are or should be run primarily in the public interest, season ticket holders are often paying more for their journey than Off Peak or Advance ticket holders. In the cases where they are paying less, a season ticket holder is far more likely to be providing significant repeat custom, and to have paid up front for their travel, than customers with other tickets.

Quite what some people have against the notion of them then reserving a seat is unclear.

For Peterborough the season is cheaper than 5 Off Peak Day Returns or Super Off Peak Returns for route Any Permitted.

A 7 Day Season from Peterborough to London costs £19.38 per single journey if 10 journeys are made. An Off Peak Day Return costs £18.10 per single journey.

 

[Haywain]

A 7 Day Season from Peterborough to London costs £19.38 per single journey if 10 journeys are made. An Off Peak Day Return costs £18.10 per single journey.

True. A mental calculation error, somehow getting 5 x £36.20 to over £200!