Route from Euston to Inverness in 1941

[Nutmeg]

Hi all. I'm working on a TV show and need to make a prop ticket. I hope you can help me make this look right.
The show is set in 1941. The character is travelling from Euston to Inverness one way.
Would this be an LMS issued ticket?
Does anyone have any images of tickets from this era that I could copy?
Any help or advise would be greatly received.
Many thanks.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I don’t think you could make a daytime journey all the way in 1941. Is your character using the overnight sleeper?

 

[Nutmeg]

I don’t think you could make a daytime journey all the way in 1941. Is your character using the overnight sleeper?

We don't see the journey. It's just discussed.
So they may have to get off and stay somewhere over night?
Would they need 2 tickets then?
Where would they likely stay over if needed?

 

[d9009alycidon]

We don't see the journey. It's just discussed.
So they may have to get off and stay somewhere over night?
Would they need 2 tickets then?
Where would they likely stay over if needed?

Are these military personnel? Remember in 1941 non essential travel was frowned upon especially long distance, trains were few and far between and were nornmally packed with soldiers, sailors and airmen going on and returning from leave. If they did have to travel they would have faced a very long and potentially perilous journey. By 1939 the fastest service from London to Inverness took 16 hours 14 minutes (overnight - and sleeping cars would have been a luxury) but in 1941 at the height of the Blitz most services would have been further heavily affected by enemy action.
Assuming they were able to travel during the day then I would expect that the most likely stoppiing off point would have been Glasgow. Military personnel and others travelling on government business would have had travel warrants which were exchanged for tickets prior to travel. Most other travellers would have bought thir tickets at the station prior to boarding the train but some would have been available to book in advance through travel agents such as Thomas Cook, however the tickets would definately have been LMS

 

[Gloster]

Sleeping cars to Inverness were pretty well the prerogative of senior military officers and a few very high ranking civil servants. Civilians might be in First with other officers or jammed in Second.

If breaking the journey it would probably be either at Glasgow or Edinburgh: in both cases there would almost certainly be a change of station. In the latter case that would be an LNER ticket to Edinburgh and an LMS one on; there would probably also need to be two tickets for the all-LMS route via Glasgow. I believe that Dean & Dawson was a major seller of domestic tickets.

I am not certain, but I think that Inverness was within the restricted area that you had to get permission in advance to enter unless you were a resident or on military service. (It is possible that the area was ‘beyond Inverness’.)

 

[d9009alycidon]

Sleeping cars to Inverness were pretty well the prerogative of senior military officers and a few very high ranking civil servants. Civilians might be in First with other officers or jammed in Second.

If breaking the journey it would probably be either at Glasgow or Edinburgh: in both cases there would almost certainly be a change of station. In the latter case that would be an LNER ticket to Edinburgh and an LMS one on; there would probably also need to be two tickets for the all-LMS route via Glasgow. I believe that Dean & Dawson was a major seller of domestic tickets.

I am not certain, but I think that Inverness was within the restricted area that you had to get permission in advance to enter unless you were a resident or on military service. (It is possible that the area was ‘beyond Inverness’.)

In WW2 Scotland north and west of the Great Glen and Inverness became a restricted area so you would have been OK getting to Inverness, but no further!

 

[delt1c]

This has got me wondering which station in Edinburgh would the Inverness service depart from?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

This has got me wondering which station in Edinburgh would the Inverness service depart from?

Was there an Edinburgh to Inverness service? I would have thought the LNER route journey would have required a change in Aberdeen. The LMS station was Princes Street but this only took you towards Carstairs or Glasgow St Enoch, neither of which facilitated through trains to Inverness which ran from Glasgow Buchanan Street I think?

 

[Nutmeg]

Thank you all for your quick and detailed responses.
The person in question is a civilian trying to escape the blitz. They are not well off.
So although it would have been frown upon to travel, in my experience artistic license wins out over facts on TV shows!
Does anybody have a link to reference images of tickets from this period. I understand the tickets didn't change all much over the years but still it would be good to see something.
Many thanks.

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Don’t think you needed separate tickets just because two companies were involved? Revenue shared out behind the scenes (Railway Clearing House function?). And certainly not just because it took two days.

Issuing company would depend where starting from in London. Euston (or St Pancras) by LMS. Kings Cross by LNER.

If LMS then direct Euston to Perth (if that was running in 1941?) connecting for Inverness. Or via Glasgow with a change of station.

If by LNER then changing in Edinburgh and Aberdeen or Perth.

 

[deltic]

Thank you all for your quick and detailed responses.
The person in question is a civilian trying to escape the blitz. They are not well off.
So although it would have been frown upon to travel, in my experience artistic license wins out over facts on TV shows!
Does anybody have a link to reference images of tickets from this period. I understand the tickets didn't change all much over the years but still it would be good to see something.
Many thanks.

If you go on Ebay and type LMS ticket with various dates from 1939 to 1945 you will find a number of examples of tickets that were used then eg this link https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/353867787034?hash=item526429eb1a:g:B5UAAOSw-W5h4HlG will give you six examples all of a similar design in 1940

 

[etr221]

Looking at the TimeTableWorld website 1944 Bradshaw (would not be very different in 1941) the options shown for London (Euston) - Inverness were the 1 0 aft, change ? via Glasgow (Central to Buchanan Street) for overnight to Inverness 5 30 mrn; or 7 20 aft through to Inverness (Sleeper for the select few) 10 18 mrn. Both LMS all the way, crowded and subject to delay.

Ticket I would expect to have been a standard LMSR Edmondson card (of the appropriate colour for the class).

1939 ABC suggests LMS from Euston via Stirling and Perth, or LNER-LMS from Kings Cross via Edinburgh (Waverley) and Perth: both 69/- 3rd class single (115/1 1st)

If not well off I would think they would have gone sitting up all the way, rather than pay for an overnight stay wherever (Glasgow/Edinburgh/Stirling/Perth?)

 

[30907]

Don’t think you needed separate tickets just because two companies were involved? Revenue shared out behind the scenes (Railway Clearing House function?). And certainly not just because it took two days.

Correct. Singles were valid 3 days except over short distances.

If LMS then direct Euston to Perth (if that was running in 1941?) connecting for Inverness. Or via Glasgow with a change of station.

Or changing at Carlisle/Motherwell then direct to Perth

If by LNER then changing if necessary in Edinburgh and Aberdeen or Perth.

via Aberdeen is further so would have cost more.

 

[Taunton]

Daytime travel from London to Inverness was not possible until about 1961, when a new fast 8am train from Kings Cross to Edinburgh gave connections through to Inverness. A railway journalist of the era made an initial journey on it.

The normal previous way was overnight, which all from the Far North were used to. The principal route was from London Euston, via the Motherwell-Stirling direct line, and Perth, LMS all the way, on which there were a couple of trains a day (less than before 1939). They were very substantial and overcrowded. Most seats were taken by older passengers and women; soldiers would expect to "stand", alias lay in the corridor, even the officers in first class. In addition, there was a special daily military-only (so not suitable for your story) train from Euston right through to Thurso, which took the best part of 24 hours, although few were travelling all the way.

Tickets for a mainstream journey, London Euston to Inverness, would be the small preprinted card type, linked above, commonly called "Edmondson tickets", if you want to do a further search, after the inventor of the printing process involved. Less common trips, say Wembley to Dingwall, would be completed by hand on a paper form. There is, believe it or not, a subculture of enthusiasts about tickets, who even offer a service to those in the media, see : http://www.transport-ticket.org.uk/contact-us/

My father told me that although there were various restricted areas around the country, which people pretty much stuck to, there was little checking, and even if a policeman stopped you, once they established that you didn't seem like a spy, they normally just gave advice, and you were on your way. It was different if, like many men, you were in uniform and stopped by the Military Police, but again there were many such men, and not a lot of MPs.

in my experience artistic license wins out over facts on TV shows!

It depends. For TV shows which are filmed on one of the historic railways, such as the Bluebell in Sussex, those from there are commonly brilliant in getting all the details right, the right uniform brass buttons, etc, so us lot won't have any complaint - though they say whether the Director accepts their suggestions is a different matter.

 

[Nutmeg]

Many thanks all. I feel clear and confident about the task now.
I have one last question if I may.
Could anybody hazard a guess of the fare for this journey?

Mary

 

[Dr Hoo]

As Post #12 stated, the single Third Class fare in 1939 was 69 shillings. There was one general fares increase during the War, of 16-and-two-thirds percent from December 1940, taking it to 80 shillings and sixpence. I have checked a 1946 ABC and it was still the same then.

This was just for a seat, not a sleeper berth.

By way of general interest, a typical factory worker's wage in 1941 would have been just under £5 per week, so your protagonist would not be undertaking the journey lightly from a financial perspective.

 

[deltic]

Many thanks all. I feel clear and confident about the task now.
I have one last question if I may.
Could anybody hazard a guess of the fare for this journey?

Mary

In 1939 single 3rd class fare was 69/- according to @etr221 - rail fares in 1940 increased by an average of 10% so suggest a fare of 76/- seems reasonable

 

[181]

Civilians might be in First with other officers or jammed in Second.

Remember that it was called Third in those days.

Remember in 1941 non essential travel was frowned upon especially long distance

So although it would have been frown upon to travel, in my experience artistic license wins out over facts on TV shows!

I think the railways tried to discourage it ('is your journey really necessary?'), but I'm not aware that there was any wider social disapproval. I think my mother's family managed annual trips from the Birmingham area to visit relatives in Perthshire (she's still alive, but was only 6 in 1941, and so probably can't provide much detail of transport arrangements).

If breaking the journey it would probably be either at Glasgow or Edinburgh: in both cases there would almost certainly be a change of station.

This has got me wondering which station in Edinburgh would the Inverness service depart from?

Was there an Edinburgh to Inverness service? I would have thought the LNER route journey would have required a change in Aberdeen. The LMS station was Princes Street but this only took you towards Carstairs or Glasgow St Enoch, neither of which facilitated through trains to Inverness which ran from Glasgow Buchanan Street I think?

As is usual with old timetables, the 1938 Bradshaw reprint makes it frustratingly unclear what's a through train and what's a connection, but there does appear to have been at least one through working from Edinburgh Waverley to Inverness, and at least one morning arrival in Inverness with through coaches from both Euston and King's Cross; most other trains appear to have had connections from both Edinburgh stations (not sure of the route from Princes Street, but it seems there was a link to the LNER's Glasgow line which would have enabled trains via Stirling). It may well have been different during the war, though.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Was there an Edinburgh to Inverness service? I would have thought the LNER route journey would have required a change in Aberdeen. The LMS station was Princes Street but this only took you towards Carstairs or Glasgow St Enoch, neither of which facilitated through trains to Inverness which ran from Glasgow Buchanan Street I think?

Trains from Edinburgh (Waverley) to Inverness ran via Dunfermline to Perth thence over the LMS route.
Trains from Princes Street ran to Stirling, Callander and Oban joining the LNER route at Haymarket West Jn and presumably with running powers over the LNER via Falkirk (Grahamston).

Off topic, but trains from Princes Street to Glasgow ran to Central, not St Enoch.
There were also LMS suburban services to Granton and Leith which crossed over the LNER E&G line at right angles on a bridge, the LNER took a different route and had their own stations in both of these towns .

 

[Gloster]

I have managed to unearth the July 1945 ABC Guide. (Pure chance: I though I had brought it over from the old house and had no idea which pile it might be in at the new, but I collected more stuff from the old and there it was on a shelf.) The price given for a Single was 134/3 First and 80/6 Third: these are listed under Euston, but there are no fares listed for King’s Cross, so that was presumably the same. There appear to have been no trains on Saturday night/Sunday morning.

 

[Dr Hoo]

In 1939 single 3rd class fare was 69/- according to @etr221 - rail fares in 1940 increased by an average of 10% so suggest a fare of 76/- seems reasonable

Although the original proposal was for 10%, after various tribunals had looked at it the figure was 16 2/3%. The price of 80 shillings and 6 pence in 1941 is definitely correct.

 

[Nutmeg]

Thank you all once again.
I've done a quick mock up. Any pointers would be greatly received.
Can anybody tell me what the numbers are at the bottom of the ticket? - circled red in the attached image.
Many thanks.

 

[Taunton]

Good start.

"LONDON (Euston)" rather than "Euston"
L. M. & S. R. fully punctuated
"For Conditions See Over" rather than "Notices"

I think the numbers at the bottom are the batch/print machine number, to aid reordering. The individual serial numbers are the large ones on each side.

The special letterpress equipment was latterly consolidated at a British Rail print shop in Crewe, when they finally closed that down in quite recent times, in favour of more modern tickets, the equipment was given away to one of the enthusiast heritage railways (which one?), who now print old-style tickets for all the other heritage railways.

 

[Nutmeg]

Thanks for the feedback Taunton.
With regards to "For Conditions See Over" I was referencing the ebay items on the above link which are blank on the reverse:

c1940s LM&SR Railway Ticket x6 Chorley Leamingtonn Spa Stoke Preston | eBay

c1940s LM&SR Railway Ticket x6 Chorley Leamingtonn Spa Stoke Preston.

www.ebay.co.uk

So do you think what I've done is okay?- see attached.

 

[Taunton]

Very good. Can you get the buff colour of the cardboard?

Is the printing on the ticket to be in shot?

 

[Nutmeg]

Yep. I'll print it on suitable paper.
Thanks.

 

[30907]

As is usual with old timetables, the 1938 Bradshaw reprint makes it frustratingly unclear what's a through train and what's a connection, but there does appear to have been at least one through working from Edinburgh Waverley to Inverness, and at least one morning arrival in Inverness with through coaches from both Euston and King's Cross;

Apart from the sleepers it shows 2 through trains (10.12 and 2.10) plus a later connection into a fast evening train from Glasgow from a K.X. to Perth through service. I suspect the latter would have been cut in wartime anyway.

 

[Ediswan]

According to a popular source:

the Severn Valley Railway, the West Somerset Railway, the Bluebell Railway, the Isle of Wight Steam Railway and the Swanage Railway print Edmondson tickets for their own use as well as for a number of other heritage lines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmondson_railway_ticket

Any of those might be willing to help, probably for a fee.

 

[Bevan Price]

The 1944 LMSR timetable (1941 was probably similar) shows a sleeping car train from London Euston at 7:20 pm to Inverness, arrive 10:18 am. It did not run on Saturday nights.

In addition to the rail fare, there was a sleeper charge:
24s 6d, First Class, single berth cabin
16s 6d, First class, berth in 2 berth cabin
8s 9d.,Third class, berth in 4 berth cabin.

Apart from the Kings Cross to Aberdeen (Aberdonian), and a 7:30 pm Euston Perth, no other Anglo-Scottish sleeper trains went beyond Glasgow or Edinburgh.

Most sleeping car trains also conveyed ordinary passenger (non-sleeping) coaches for sitting passengers.

The only daytime train beyond Glasgow or Edinburgh was a 10:05 am Euston To Perth, (arrive 8:46 pm), where you had to wait until 1:05 am for the next train to Inverness (arrive 05:30).

In addition to Euston & Kings Cross, there were services to Edinburgh Waverley & Glasgow St. Enoch from London St. Pancras using the Midland route via Sheffield & Leeds to Carlisle - but no services beyond Glasgow or Edinburgh.

Sleeping car passengers could arrange for refreshments with the attendant; for everyone else - take your food with you, or hope you could get some at station stops at, for example, Carlisle, whilst the loco was being changed.

 

[etr221]

One thought I've had is - at that time (1940s or before), to what extent would tickets have been bought in advance - even for such long journeys? The impression I have is that a high proportion - perhaps even most - would have been bought and issued at Euston, on day of travel. But I could be wrong.