Scotrail Guards Dispute

[Falcon1200]

Perhaps they feel that this is an attack on their grade?

The attack on their (Guards) grade, or alternatively efforts to reduce the cost of running the railway and at the same time improve reliability, started in 1986 when DOO was first introduced in Strathclyde; There was a strike against it then, too!

 

[edgar13]

National Rail Enquiries report an impending Scotrail Guards dispute;

Incident: IA SR | National Rail

Industrial action to affect ScotRail on weekends from Saturday 18 May until Sunday 2 June. Find details of all current incidents on National Rail Enquiries.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

Presumably in connection with extending Driver Only Operation to the newly electrified routes.

Seems like the Shotts line have just been added to the list of affected routes. Wonder if the list will keep on expanding?

 

[Davester50]

odd occasion of no Ticket Examiner available?

It's no longer an odd occasion.
The FOI request from February 2024 shows that in the later part of 2023 its ~8% of services. That's quite a massive fail.

 

[380101]

Good for you.

You must have missed the information put out by your own union (assuming that you are in it) about the train not being able to run without a second staff member "unless the driver says so". Source: Kevin Lindsay, ASLEF.

No, I just read the agreement correctly! Seems plenty of people didn't, or perhaps their union leadership failed to give their members all the info so they could engineer a dispute with ScotRail?

It's no longer an odd occasion.
The FOI request from February 2024 shows that in the later part of 2023 its ~8% of services. That's quite a massive fail.

118 new Ticket Examiners to be recruited and trained by December 24 timetable change as part of the upgrade to the Strathclyde Manning Agreement to ensure a guaranteed 2nd person onboard. Also more Conductors to be recruited if the RMT agree the changes.

 

[Stan_Butler]

How do the Glasgow Queen St - Edinburgh via Falkirk High services work, is it still a Guards or is it DOO with a ticket inspector?

 

[sannox]

How do the Glasgow Queen St - Edinburgh via Falkirk High services work, is it still a Guards or is it DOO with a ticket inspector?

My understanding is that it operates as Driver Open, Conductor Close (DOCC)

 

[Scotrail84]

How do the Glasgow Queen St - Edinburgh via Falkirk High services work, is it still a Guards or is it DOO with a ticket inspector?

Driver releases the doors then hands control over to the Conductor who closes them and gives the driver the ready to start signal.

 

[Davester50]

118 new Ticket Examiners to be recruited and trained by December 24 timetable change as part of the upgrade to the Strathclyde Manning Agreement to ensure a guaranteed 2nd person onboard. Also more Conductors to be recruited if the RMT agree the changes.

That's good, but quite worrying that the numbers were allowed to drop to need to recruit so many at once.

 

[ComUtoR]

That's good, but quite worrying that the numbers were allowed to drop to need to recruit so many at once.

Turnover is difficult to predict. Natural wastage generally follows a trend but you will always get sudden spikes where people migrate away from your business.

My TOCs manpower plan is very fluid and changes on a monthly basis

Rail recruitment is a bit odd. There is a huge pool of applicants but they are generally untrained and unqualified. Recruitments leans to be more.on demand but training takes forever.

Chuck in the financial element and it gets worse. How much.of a surplus is anybody willing to pay for ?

 

[Davester50]

Turnover is difficult to predict. Natural wastage generally follows a trend but you will always get sudden spikes where people migrate away from your business.

My TOCs manpower plan is very fluid and changes on a monthly basis

Rail recruitment is a bit odd. There is a huge pool of applicants but they are generally untrained and unqualified. Recruitments leans to be more.on demand but training takes forever.

Chuck in the financial element and it gets worse. How much.of a surplus is anybody willing to pay for ?

Thanks for the insight.

 

[380101]

That's good, but quite worrying that the numbers were allowed to drop to need to recruit so many at once.

Numbers haven't dropped. This is additional recruitment to increase the Ticket Examiner compliment across the company to ensure they can guarantee ALL Strathclyde electric services have a 2nd person onboard in order to run. Spare coverage is likely to increase for this reason. It is also to facilitate double Ticket Examiner crewing on some evening and late night services to enhance the onboard safety for passengers.

 

[snookertam]

I’ll take the RMT position seriously when:

A) They withdraw from similar agreements elsewhere

B) They extend the strike action to demand that conductors are reintroduced on DOO routes.

So am I right in saying that the train operator caved in and for no operational justification agreed that conductors would be retained on Barrhead and EK services? And instead of being consumed with glee at this bizarre concession the conductors are in dispute about who should work the doors?

Pretty much, yes.

 

[jkkne]

This dispute was entirely avoidable. ScotRail has the power to halt it immediately by simply implementing DOCCO, driver open conductor close operation. This method is already in place using the class 380 on the Shotts line.

Or they just move to DOO which works perfectly well?

 

[ComUtoR]

Or they just move to DOO which works perfectly well?

Does it ?

 

[Horizon22]

Does it ?

Yes, in the vast majority of cases.

People may have a different definition of "works" of course!

 

[Ashley Hill]

Yes, in the vast majority of cases.

People may have a different definition of "works" of course!

And so the forum dismisses the role of the guard once again.

 

[Horizon22]

And so the forum dismisses the role of the guard once again.

I did not dismiss it; DOO "works", guarded trains "work" too.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Companies have a nasty habit of including the “possibility “ of DOO in pay agreements,my TOC has done this with ASLEF. It’ll never happen is often the mantra chanted by both sides,but a few years down the line it’s pointed out that it’s all been agreed and there’s nowt you can do about it. This strikes me as initiating DOO by the back door. If one train can run without a guard because the driver feels it’s safe then why can’t the rest? Long live Sprinters!

 

[Carlisle]

And so the forum dismisses the role of the guard once again.

The world doesn’t appear to know what’s best practice . I did around 100 miles in France & Switzerland a fortnight ago on guardless trains but apparently in Sydney Australia brand new commuter stock requires fixed guards compartments for all dispatch duties. etc, so who’s right ?

 

[LowLevel]

The world doesn’t appear to know what’s best practice . I did around 100 miles in France & Switzerland a fortnight ago on guardless trains but apparently in Sydney Australia brand new commuter stock requires fixed guards compartments for all dispatch duties., who’s right ?

Who knows? I don't think anyone is "right". To have a guard is ultimately to err on the side of caution, I suppose. The view on whether that's necessary is personal. As a highly productive, efficient and talented guard ( ) I reckon I'm well worth my wages in all respects - but then I tend to work services that lend themselves to my skills. I would probably hold myself as wasted if I was stuck in a cab dispatching on something like the London Underground or the Brum Cross City, if I was being totally honest.

I'd never call DOO *best* practice. But I'd also at least listen to arguments about a traditional guard in a compartment being a bit of a waste on intensive urban routes, though I might not agree with the outcome.

 

[Falcon1200]

Or they just move to DOO which works perfectly well?

Does it ?

Yes.

In my experience, 1986-2016 as operational railway staff (Controller), and as a regular passenger on DOO services from 1986 to now.

Which does not mean I think every train should be DOO, very much far from it, but as I mentioned earlier we now have identical trains working almost identical routes but with different methods of working on no logical basis whatsoever.

 

[manmikey]

A union might comprise staff, but those staff don’t have much sway over their unions’ politics or decision making.

You couldn't be more wrong about this....both the RMT and ASLEF are democratic organisations their charter, policys and actions are all guided by members at branch level, resolution are proposed and discussed and voted on by branch members and these can ultimately become union policy as they are passed up the chain.
Usually , probably 1% of what they do is pay negotiations the other 99% of what the RMT and ASLEF reps do day to day is to cooperate and negotiate with management to come to agreements that suit both staff and company such as FDW agreements, Rosters, local agreements. They also hold management to account when they fail to honour agreements and also represent staff in disciplinary and competentcy hearings. You never hear about any of this in the daily mail, the sun or Mark Harper's press briefing or on Sky news.

Only when the negotiating machinery is exhausted is industrial action ever considered and then legally voted for by the required laws. There are no union barons calling the shots , just democratictaly elected local, regional and national union representatives doing what they have been elected by the members to do which is to represent those members wishes.
Never had theirs been more apparent with the continued solid turn out and votes for ASOAS and Strike manadates every 6 months in the ongoing dispute.

 

[LowLevel]

You couldn't be more wrong about this....both the RMT and ASLEF are democratic organisations their charter, policys and actions are all guided by members at branch level, resolution are proposed and discussed and voted on by branch members and these can ultimately become union policy as they are passed up the chain.
Usually , probably 1% of what they do is pay negotiations the other 99% of what the RMT and ASLEF reps do day to day is to cooperate and negotiate with management to come to agreements that suit both staff and company such as FDW agreements, Rosters, local agreements. They also hold management to account when they fail to honour agreements and also represent staff in disciplinary and competentcy hearings. You never hear about any of this in the daily mail, the sun or Mark Harper's press briefing or on Sky news.

Only when the negotiating machinery is exhausted is industrial action ever considered and then legally voted for by the required laws. There are no union barons calling the shots , just democratictaly elected local, regional and national union representatives doing what they have been elected by the members to do which is to represent those members wishes.
Never had theirs been more apparent with the continued solid turn out and votes for ASOAS and Strike manadates every 6 months in the ongoing dispute.

To be fair I'm a union member and generally get on with it. The turn out for these much vaunted elections is not exactly stellar.

 

[Towers]

You couldn't be more wrong about this....both the RMT and ASLEF are democratic organisations their charter, policys and actions are all guided by members at branch level, resolution are proposed and discussed and voted on by branch members and these can ultimately become union policy as they are passed up the chain.
Usually , probably 1% of what they do is pay negotiations the other 99% of what the RMT and ASLEF reps do day to day is to cooperate and negotiate with management to come to agreements that suit both staff and company such as FDW agreements, Rosters, local agreements. They also hold management to account when they fail to honour agreements and also represent staff in disciplinary and competentcy hearings. You never hear about any of this in the daily mail, the sun or Mark Harper's press briefing or on Sky news.

Only when the negotiating machinery is exhausted is industrial action ever considered and then legally voted for by the required laws. There are no union barons calling the shots , just democratictaly elected local, regional and national union representatives doing what they have been elected by the members to do which is to represent those members wishes.
Never had theirs been more apparent with the continued solid turn out and votes for ASOAS and Strike manadates every 6 months in the ongoing dispute.

I completely disagree!

But each to their own

As @LowLevel says above, branch meetings are scarsely attended by the average member. At a local level people will vote in their reps of choice, but in terms of union policy that is as good as irrelevant.

I will again offer my earlier example of the most recent RMT dispute; it was not lost on many in frontline operational roles that whilst the union leadership had chosen to focus their public campaigning almost entirely around ticket office closures, it was in fact their ‘muscle’ in stopping the job on strike days which was needed to drive the action forwards. There was no vote on this, and plenty felt that the disputes were very different and should have been fought on their own terms.

The RMT membership also have little sway over the union’s political interests, for example ‘Cuba Garden Party’ events or certain elements of their leadership publically stating a desire to overthrow the Conservative government on national television. Support all of that or not, the average non-driver colleague will join up anyway, for their own personal protection. Most really couldn’t care less about the rest of it, and have little say even if they do.

 

[Ashley Hill]

The RMT membership also have little sway over the union’s political interests, for example ‘Cuba Garden Party’ events

Quite. When I joined the NUR/RMT I thought they would only represent UK interests. I couldn’t give a toss about Cuba but have to read about it in the newsletter every other month.

 

[greyman42]

Quite. When I joined the NUR/RMT I thought they would only represent UK interests. I couldn’t give a toss about Cuba but have to read about it in the newsletter every other month.

You could always try telling your union rep that you don't want to have to have to read **** like that and ask them to pass the message further up.

 

[yorkie]

You could always try telling your union rep that you don't want to have to have to read **** like that and ask them to pass the message further up.

That isn't going to work; I would say more but this isn't the thread for it; can we keep this thread specific to the dispute in question?

Feel free to create a new thread (if there isn't one already) if anyone wants to discuss the ideology / mantra of unions and their willingness (or otherwise) of listening to ordinary members.

 

[reb0118]

Both these lines are currently operated with guards. The new trains will have guards' operating panels for door control. There is currently a system in place for guards & drivers to work together with regards to door control for these trains on other lines. That is known as Driver Open Conductor Conductor Close Operation (DOCCO).

Seemingly DOCCO would be acceptable to the RMT for these two routes. And would place no additional burden onto the running costs of the service as the staffing would remain the same. Not only that but it is my understanding that the conductors involved already have the traction knowledge and are trained in DOCCO.

Therefore, to my mind this is a manufactured dispute engineered by certain members of management who have an agenda to eliminate guard operated trains from Glasgow Central.

Why?

 

[Falcon1200]

Therefore, to my mind this is a manufactured dispute engineered by certain members of management who have an agenda to eliminate guard operated trains from Glasgow Central.

A fair question!

Perhaps; To reduce the cost of running heavily-subsidised services (which is why DOO was introduced in the first place); To improve reliability, as while every train absolutely should have a second member of staff rostered, the absence of Guard or Ticket Inspector would not cancel the train; And to have one simple method of working; The situation I have mentioned before with identical trains on almost identical routes out of Glasgow Central having different systems is IMHO ludicrous.

 

[Ashley Hill]

A fair question!

Perhaps; To reduce the cost of running heavily-subsidised services (which is why DOO was introduced in the first place); To improve reliability, as while every train absolutely should have a second member of staff rostered, the absence of Guard or Ticket Inspector would not cancel the train; And to have one simple method of working; The situation I have mentioned before with identical trains on almost identical routes out of Glasgow Central having different systems is IMHO ludicrous.

If the second person on the train is not a guard then it's a DOO train. It’s DOO by the back door.

Therefore, to my mind this is a manufactured dispute engineered by certain members of management who have an agenda to eliminate guard operated trains from Glasgow Central.

This seems to be the case.