Seated rail staff, passengers standing

[DNCharingX]

The terms of staff travel are quite clear that you should surrender your seat to fare-paying passengers, or if asked to do so by a guard.

That said, some rail jobs involve a lot of mobility for long hours, so I don't blame staff for wanting a seat after work. Personally, It's not been something to consider, as there are plenty of seats when I travel. No one will ask if you are not in uniform, either. At which point do you surrender your seat, even to an able-bodied customer?

I hope that just because staff travel for free to/from work, doesn't mean that customers can trample over them! Were some customers to have their way, staff would only be permitted to be seated in the toilets during travel!

 

[Bluejays]

That's fair. Ceasefire.

agreed. Weapons away

 

[185]

In the peak, on days when trains actually run, passenger loadings east of Huddersfield are full and standing. West of Huddersfield are often half empty. TPE should have fewer services, with several running non-stop through Huddersfield & Dewsbury, and instead introduce a separate Huddersfield-Dewsbury-Leeds fast shuttle every 15 mins. This was suggested and dismissed 15 years ago by the PTE.

Besides, next time I fly to the states, if the flight is full and I discover a dead-heading crew, shall I throw them all out of door 4L?

 

[aleandrail]

If I’m en route to work via another TOC I’ve paid for my seat and I’ll remain in it, thanks very much! I’d offer my seat in the same scenario as at any other time - ie disabled/elderly person.

When passing at work I’ll generally sit in 1st where it’s quieter than standard, or failing that a back cab. I’ve never known all seats to be taken up in 1st, though.

I always thought drivers would have free travel on any TOC, well you live and learn.

 

[twpsaesneg]

Most rail staff actually are bound by their terms and conditions to vacate seats, even where they have a Priv ticket: https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/d...0.0PRXw4XOKta2QUln-o9eFmsTzahC4LE_FaRphPgMCX0

Staff travellers must ensure priority is given to fare-paying passengers. They should, whenever possible, seek to travel on lightly-loaded services. When this is not possible and travel is undertaken on a crowded train, they should stand back to allow fare-paying passengers to obtain seats.

Note though that this ONLY applies if they are making use of Staff Travel facilities (i.e. discounted or free travel). Those of us who don't have those facilities or who aren't using them (e.g. duty travel where a ticket is paid for) are not subject to those T&Cs.

In fairness, these kinds of shenanigans are one of the reasons I tend to NOT use rail travel for work purposes!

 

[bramling]

Even so, passengers who happen to be staff on full public rate tickets don't *need* to give up their seat, although visibly sitting in a rail staff uniform polo while others are standing is bad form. I wouldn't do it.

Out of interest, why exactly is it such bad form? Say it’s a Saturday and a particular train which is normally fairly empty is packed because of an event. It is *really* bad form for a shift worker who has been at work for potentially 10-12 hours to occupy a seat whilst, for example, a load of football fans or concert-goers stand?

From a personal point of view, from a farepayer perspective it isn’t something which bothers me, so I don’t really see why it should unduly bother others. What *does* irritate at times is when you get a group of staff somewhere, especially in first class, who treat is like a mess room and make a racket.

 

[66701GBRF]

There’s a lot being said about priv travel etc but no seems to have mentioned duty travel. I travel occasionally with freight duty travel and all though I’d give up me seat to someone who’s in genuine need I don’t believe there is a rule saying I MUST give up my seat.

Edit: just as I typed that someone did mention duty travel.

 

[12LDA28C]

I always thought drivers would have free travel on any TOC, well you live and learn.

Something called Privatisation put paid to all that...

 

[AlterEgo]

Out of interest, why exactly is it such bad form? Say it’s a Saturday and a particular train which is normally fairly empty is packed because of an event. It is *really* bad form for a shift worker who has been at work for potentially 10-12 hours to occupy a seat whilst, for example, a load of football fans or concert-goers stand?

They're allowed to do it but it certainly looks bad, even if it isn't and they're on a full rate ticket. I wouldn't have the work polo on view, much as I never had my duty pass and staff lanyard on view when travelling on full rate tickets when working for NR.

It's like going to the pub after work. Fine - but you're not allowed to do it in uniform, and you know why.

 

[bramling]

They're allowed to do it but it certainly looks bad, even if it isn't and they're on a full rate ticket. I wouldn't have the work polo on view, much as I never had my duty pass and staff lanyard on view when travelling on full rate tickets when working for NR.

Why is it any worse than, say, someone who has paid for a full walk-up ticket having to stand, whilst someone on a dirt cheap advance is seated? Except in this case that it’s visible because of the uniform.

As an edge case, my understanding is holders of retired travel benefits aren’t required to give up seats. Is it bad form, therefore, for a younger dependant of same who also happens to still work in the industry, and who is travelling somewhere after work (not a commute for which travel benefits shouldn’t be used) and still happens to be wearing their uniform, to be occupying a seat? I believe that situation isn’t covered by any requirement to give up a seat in the T&Cs.

 

[66701GBRF]

Why is it any worse than, say, someone who has paid for a full walk-up ticket having to stand, whilst someone on a dirt cheap advance is seated? Except in this case that it’s visible because of the uniform.

Neither is bad in my opinion. Except for reservations seats are first come first served.

 

[exbrel]

i was told from day one when we had cardboard tickets, but whether i've been lucky i think 5-6 times in 60 odd yrs, and now retired i'm not required too, so now its the courtesy side, if needed...

 

[AlterEgo]

Why is it any worse than, say, someone who has paid for a full walk-up ticket having to stand, whilst someone on a dirt cheap advance is seated? Except in this case that it’s visible because of the uniform.

You've answered your own question here.

 

[Mag_seven]

The issue is quite clear here as highlighted by other posters - the requirement for staff to give up their seat for fare paying passengers will be governed by whatever facilities they hold when travelling be it duty, residential or leisure travel.

 

[bramling]

You've answered your own question here.

But, with an element of devil’s advocate, the first case I quoted can also become visible in the right circumstances (if for example their cheap ticket is plainly visible on a table).

 

[43066]

Most rail staff actually are bound by their terms and conditions to vacate seats, even where they have a Priv ticket: https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/d...0.0PRXw4XOKta2QUln-o9eFmsTzahC4LE_FaRphPgMCX0

Staff travellers must ensure priority is given to fare-paying passengers. They should, whenever possible, seek to travel on lightly-loaded services. When this is not possible and travel is undertaken on a crowded train, they should stand back to allow fare-paying passengers to obtain seats.

Yes indeed although, while that’s true, I certainly wouldn’t advocate asking/demanding. It’s unnecessarily provocative, and it’s impossible to know who’s entitled to what, who might have an invisible disability etc.

Normal human decency applies to this situation as much as any other: I’d be appalled to see a healthy young adult demanding someone old enough to be their parent/grandparent vacate a seat just because they happen to be in TOC uniform.

In the vast majority of cases of priv travel you won’t even know they’re staff, simply because they won’t be in uniform. It’s not a significant issue, or something that would even occur to many people.

 

[357]

There are a few angles on this. And an incident I saw yesterday is highly relevant.

1. Generally, all staff should give priority to fare paying passengers. Today, I was traveling on one of my companies trains and it was full and standing. I left my other half in standard and jumped in the back cab so at least one more person can get a seat.

2. Some staff, myself included, have our scheduled break while traveling on a passenger train. There are requirements for this, such as a seat, and functional catering facilities. If I had to compete a journey, stand all the way to my next location (my break), and then drive a second train, the departure of that second train will be delayed by the length of break I am required to take.

3. Lastly, yesterday I did see an incident that boiled my you know what. I was on a crowded train, in the unreserved coach, and a husband and wife (who both had lanyards for another TOC), with their two children, came into the coach and said to the passengers sitting at the table already "sorry we have reserved these seats" and made them move. Being in the unreserved coach they were obviously lying and this was confirmed by the digital reservation displays.
Later, revenue protection got on and they were rude to him too when he asked if they were traveling for work or pleasure - the man saying "I'm a manager mate, I'm the (redacted) manager at (redacted) depot, this is my work laptop on the table to technically I'm working" and one of the kids saying "are work lanyards the new fashion?".

 

[43066]

3. Lastly, yesterday I did see an incident that boiled my you know what. I was on a crowded train, in the unreserved coach, and a husband and wife (who both had lanyards for another TOC), with their two children, came into the coach and said to the passengers sitting at the table already "sorry we have reserved these seats" and made them move. Being in the unreserved coach they were obviously lying and this was confirmed by the digital reservation displays.

No excuses for that! Shocking behaviour.

 

[Florence Rox]

I realise this thread is more aimed at main line trains, but I have been offered a seat on numerous occasions on TFL services while in uniform, being past retirement age. Don’t forget there could be signallers, office staff etc who are unable to stand for medical reasons. Should they give up their seat too, or should they buy a ticket?

 

[Bluejays]

There are a few angles on this. And an incident I saw yesterday is highly relevant.

1. Generally, all staff should give priority to fare paying passengers. Today, I was traveling on one of my companies trains and it was full and standing. I left my other half in standard and jumped in the back cab so at least one more person can get a seat.

2. Some staff, myself included, have our scheduled break while traveling on a passenger train. There are requirements for this, such as a seat, and functional catering facilities. If I had to compete a journey, stand all the way to my next location (my break), and then drive a second train, the departure of that second train will be delayed by the length of break I am required to take.

3. Lastly, yesterday I did see an incident that boiled my you know what. I was on a crowded train, in the unreserved coach, and a husband and wife (who both had lanyards for another TOC), with their two children, came into the coach and said to the passengers sitting at the table already "sorry we have reserved these seats" and made them move. Being in the unreserved coach they were obviously lying and this was confirmed by the digital reservation displays.
Later, revenue protection got on and they were rude to him too when he asked if they were traveling for work or pleasure - the man saying "I'm a manager mate, I'm the (redacted) manager at (redacted) depot, this is my work laptop on the table to technically I'm working" and one of the kids saying "are work lanyards the new fashion?".

Good post. Scenario 3 is shocking. I hope the RPI reported it, bullying horrible behaviour.
Should also point out that I'd be equally as disgusted by that behaviour from front line staff as from management.

I hope the passengers complained aswell

 

[matt_world2004]

I realise this thread is more aimed at main line trains, but I have been offered a seat on numerous occasions on TFL services while in uniform, being past retirement age. Don’t forget there could be signallers, office staff etc who are unable to stand for medical reasons. Should they give up their seat too, or should they buy a ticket?

TfL staff have no requirement to give up their seat when travelling on a staff pass. There is a local agreement in my department for example ; that we are allowed to take our meal break on in service vehicles if there are no suitable break facilities at our work location . This requires seating. Incidentally this caused issues during covid as we were often eating when there were mask requirements.

 

[Snow1964]

You also won’t find me charging or denying rail staff in uniform for a ticket as we all work for the same DfT now. It’s essentially all one company with different shareholders at the top.

That sounds like you are suggesting paying customers should go and buy a uniform off fleabay etc, then won't need to buy a ticket.

Surely can't just assume someone hasn't left a company and kept a uniform, you should see a current pass, otherwise everyone could try it.

 

[RHolmes]

That sounds like you are suggesting paying customers should go and buy a uniform off fleabay etc, then won't need to buy a ticket.

Surely can't just assume someone hasn't left a company and kept a uniform, you should see a current pass, otherwise everyone could try it.

Above this I also mention “wearing a lanyard with company ID” and shortened this here to avoid repetition.

In the above scenario (which is very ‘Catch Me If You Can’) whereby company issued clothing is being sold online, The person flogging company property, and the passenger using it to masquerade as traincrew to travel and avoid paying fares would be in much greater trouble than I ever would for not checking the ticket of one individual passenger

 

[Towers]

There’s a lot being said about priv travel etc but no seems to have mentioned duty travel. I travel occasionally with freight duty travel and all though I’d give up me seat to someone who’s in genuine need I don’t believe there is a rule saying I MUST give up my seat.

Edit: just as I typed that someone did mention duty travel.

I was also going to mention duty travel.

Very often traincrew have to travel from place to place during their shift; i.e. on a train that they are not working. Sometimes this may be on a train operated by another TOC (and of course will always be if the driver works for a freight company, for example), in which case a spare cab or whatever crew areas exist are not generally a likely option. It is, IMHO, entirely reasonable to suggest that a driver or guard who might be somewhere in the middle of a 10 hour shift should not be expected to stand crammed into the vestibule of a hot, sweaty Voyager for example, when the next thing they have to do is resume their safety critical duties. There are all sorts of arguments branching off from that of course, not least about whether anybody should have to travel in those conditions, but I certainly feel that operational colleagues on duty should be entitled to travel in some sort of baseline reasonable conditions. Policies/realities/experiences may differ, of course!

 

[bramling]

No excuses for that! Shocking behaviour.

One of the worst I can remember was a GTR driver who spent the entire journey (in declassified first, of course) on her mobile phone, banging on about how she’d just come back from long-term sickness, how she was “milking it as much as I can”, and how she was going to spin things to get light duties and/working 9-5 for as long as she could get away with despite being fully recovered now. TBF it was extremely tempting to take a covert video and send it to her employer.

 

[chuff chuff]

One of the worst I can remember was a GTR driver who spent the entire journey (in declassified first, of course) on her mobile phone, banging on about how she’d just come back from long-term sickness, how she was “milking it as much as I can”, and how she was going to spin things to get light duties and/working 9-5 for as long as she could get away with despite being fully recovered now. TBF it was extremely tempting to take a covert video and send it to her employer.

Sadly too many of these types in the industry now,there were always those that did but feels like there so many more now.

 

[43096]

3. Lastly, yesterday I did see an incident that boiled my you know what. I was on a crowded train, in the unreserved coach, and a husband and wife (who both had lanyards for another TOC), with their two children, came into the coach and said to the passengers sitting at the table already "sorry we have reserved these seats" and made them move. Being in the unreserved coach they were obviously lying and this was confirmed by the digital reservation displays.
Later, revenue protection got on and they were rude to him too when he asked if they were traveling for work or pleasure - the man saying "I'm a manager mate, I'm the (redacted) manager at (redacted) depot, this is my work laptop on the table to technically I'm working" and one of the kids saying "are work lanyards the new fashion?".

I hope you are reporting that to the TOC involved: there’s more than enough information there to identify them for the purposes of disciplinary action.

 

[yorkie]

3. Lastly, yesterday I did see an incident that boiled my you know what. I was on a crowded train, in the unreserved coach, and a husband and wife (who both had lanyards for another TOC), with their two children, came into the coach and said to the passengers sitting at the table already "sorry we have reserved these seats" and made them move. Being in the unreserved coach they were obviously lying and this was confirmed by the digital reservation displays.

As covered by previous threads, if reservation displays state seats are "available" or are switched off, then even if they had reserved those seats, the reservations are null & void. When I see someone attempting to move passengers sat in such seats, I do mention this.

 

[Bluejays]

One of the worst I can remember was a GTR driver who spent the entire journey (in declassified first, of course) on her mobile phone, banging on about how she’d just come back from long-term sickness, how she was “milking it as much as I can”, and how she was going to spin things to get light duties and/working 9-5 for as long as she could get away with despite being fully recovered now. TBF it was extremely tempting to take a covert video and send it to her employer.

Just what you want to listen to on a journey! Always wonder what's going on in the heads of people like that, very poor behaviour.

 

[cf111]

If staff are travelling to or from work on a ticket they have paid for then no, I would not expect them to give up a seat. If they are travelling "on duty" then I would if they are able to.