Should scotrail invest in a rescue locomotive?

[PYROOGOBBO]

Sorry if this thread is dumb, but i'm wondering, as scotrail is acquiring the HST's which could break down at some point and they are bringing in new emu's , would it maybe make sense for scotrail to get themselves a rescue locomotive in the shape of something like a class 67 or a 57/extra 68 (or others, etc)

again forgive me i'm not very educated about the railways

 

[Ash Bridge]

HSTs carry their own rescue loco, like the other powercar?

 

[Marklund]

HSTs carry their own rescue loco, like the other powercar?

If that's their rescue strategy, then that's rather worrying...

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

HSTs carry their own rescue loco, like the other powercar?

can you operate the back powercar from the front power car even if the front one is broken down?

 

[Yew]

Caledonian Sleeper Locos?

 

[Mag_seven]

Sorry if this thread is dumb, but i'm wondering, as scotrail is acquiring the HST's which could break down at some point and they are bringing in new emu's , would it maybe make sense for scotrail to get themselves a rescue locomotive in the shape of something like a class 67 or a 57/extra 68 (or others, etc)

again forgive me i'm not very educated about the railways

In a word, no. As has been stated generally HSTs have backup in the form of the other power car and when EMU's fail more often than not another unit rescues it.

 

[43096]

If that's their rescue strategy, then that's rather worrying...

It's worked for the last 40 years without dedicated Thunderbird locos being required for the HST fleet. Do you know something that 40 years of experience doesn't?

 

[Iskra]

Caledonian Sleeper Locos?

Assuming thunderbirds were deemed necessary, that would appear the most cost effective solution, considering they sit spare for large parts of the day in strategic locations. Would it affect maintenance cycles though, which I assume is done during the day?

 

[Clip]

It's worked for the last 40 years without dedicated Thunderbird locos being required for the HST fleet. Do you know something that 40 years of experience doesn't?

I think thats a bit unfair to the poster - they have admitted that they are not very educated about the railways which is why they have asked a question so that they can learn and not be sneered at.

 

[DarloRich]

Not a terrible suggestion but practically due to the nature of Scotland you are going to need a couple.

At present I assume they rely on control commandeering any passing freight loco in the event of an emergency.

 

[43096]

I think thats a bit unfair to the poster - they have admitted that they are not very educated about the railways which is why they have asked a question so that they can learn and not be sneered at.

I was replying to "Marklund", not the OP.

 

[Marklund]

It's worked for the last 40 years without dedicated Thunderbird locos being required for the HST fleet. Do you know something that 40 years of experience doesn't?

So HSTs have never been dragged...:roll:
Enjoy your fill of drags here

Unless they get an agreement with CS, then they're leaving themselves open to problems, particularly on remote single line sections.

Not to forget stations where HSTs aren't allowed to stop with only 1 working Power Car.

 

[CosherB]

I can't imagine Serco would be interested in having their 73/9s parked up as 'thunderbird' locos for Abellio. I'd have thought this type of work would have been more in line for DBC and DRS ....

 

[Marklund]

I can't imagine Serco would be interested in having their 73/9s parked up as 'thunderbird' locos for Abellio. I'd have thought this type of work would have been more in line for DBC and DRS ....

Possibly, I guess co-operation like this is one of the drawbacks from splitting the sleeper franchise.

 

[Bill EWS]

The Scotrail HST's will be quite short compared to as they are at present and will not be doing anything like 125mph between Aberdeen and Inverness etc., so will not be pressured as they have been. No doubt the power cars will have a good servicing before they start operating over these routes!

 

[Blindtraveler]

A rescue loco or 2 might be needed for the DMU fleat unless they can sort reliability a bit???? And before anyone jumps down my throte this post was intended as mildly humerous

 

[rebmcr]

can you operate the back powercar from the front power car even if the front one is broken down?

Yes, unless the fault is specifically affecting the control desk/wiring, safety systems, or driver's visibility/comfort.

 

[Far north 37]

So HSTs have never been dragged...:roll:
Enjoy your fill of drags here

Unless they get an agreement with CS, then they're leaving themselves open to problems, particularly on remote single line sections.

Not to forget stations where HSTs aren't allowed to stop with only 1 working Power Car.

99% of the time hst's will carry on under one power car no way would they warrant dedicated standby locos. in the extreme event of both power cars failing im sure a loco could be arranged cross country have managed to get by for a long time without a standby loco of any kind.

 

[Clansman]

Scotrail will have 2 spare power cars when the full HST fleet is in service, so maybe having it in a centralised location would eliminate the need for additional thunderbirds? Perth would be the obvious candidate for this, given that it's due for a newly built depot and a major touching up in a couple of years. Although I imagine Craigentinny beacons until this happens. So perhaps in the meantime, an agreement with GBRF and DBS on their locos would be the most practical solution, either temporary or permanantly.

 

[GusB]

Isn't there a restriction which prevents single power-car operation over the Highland main line?

I'm wondering if this will still apply with the shorter sets. If so, there would still need to be some arrangement for rescue on that part of the network.

 

[Clansman]

Isn't there a restriction which prevents single power-car operation over the Highland main line?

I'm wondering if this will still apply with the shorter sets. If so, there would still need to be some arrangement for rescue on that part of the network.

It makes sense that it was applied knowing the risk of subjecting 1 power car to hauling 9 coaches against the demands of the HML - even for an HST.

The fact that no such restriction exists on the Sleeper shows that there's no reason, unless someone knows otherwise (Scotrail84 perhaps ), why short lengthed HSTs would be subject to this when Scotrail obtain them.

The rescue plans for the HML further strengthen the need to have the 2 additional power cars stabled at Perth, as well as additional facilities for HSTs to allow this.

 

[najaB]

Isn't there a restriction which prevents single power-car operation over the Highland main line?

No. A 9+2 HST set can operate over the HML as a 9+1+1 as long as it has a clear, unchecked run from Inveness to Moy and Moy to Schlod. If it it is brought to a stand it isn't allowed to restart against the gradient.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Not to forget stations where HSTs aren't allowed to stop with only 1 working Power Car.

Why would this be?

 

[najaB]

Why would this be?

Because the station is at the bottom of a bowl. A single PC HST can't call at Inverkething in the down direction or Netwonmore in either direction.

 

[43096]

It makes sense that it was applied knowing the risk of subjecting 1 power car to hauling 9 coaches against the demands of the HML - even for an HST.

The fact that no such restriction exists on the Sleeper shows that there's no reason, unless someone knows otherwise (Scotrail84 perhaps ), why short lengthed HSTs would be subject to this when Scotrail obtain them.

The rescue plans for the HML further strengthen the need to have the 2 additional power cars stabled at Perth, as well as additional facilities for HSTs to allow this.

I'm not sure why you think the extra power cars would be available for traffic. ScotRail seem to be proposing using 24 sets daily, so 48 from 54 power cars, or around 89% availability. Given that no other operator has got that level of availability from power cars previously - highest I'm aware of over a sustained period was MML using 26 from 31 - I don't see ScotRail doing so, especially as they have no experience of them. I would not be surprised if ScotRail had to lease an extra 2 or 3 power cars to cover maintenance.

 

[najaB]

ScotRail seem to be proposing using 24 sets daily, so 48 from 54 power cars, or around 89% availability. Given that no other operator has got that level of availability from power cars previously - highest I'm aware of over a sustained period was MML using 26 from 31 - I don't see ScotRail doing so, especially as they have no experience of them. I would not be surprised if ScotRail had to lease an extra 2 or 3 power cars to cover maintenance.

That said, they are going to be working a lot less hard than they have been with other operators - very little running over 90mph and 4 or 5 carriages rather than 8 or 9. I'd be a bit worried if they weren't able to at least match other operator's reliability. Especially given that Craigentinny has been maintaining HSTs for ages.

 

[gsnedders]

I can't imagine Serco would be interested in having their 73/9s parked up as 'thunderbird' locos for Abellio. I'd have thought this type of work would have been more in line for DBC and DRS ....

AFAIK, there's an obligation as part of the track access agreement to give up any spare locomotives for the sake of rescuing a failed train.

 

[BestWestern]

If that's their rescue strategy, then that's rather worrying...

I'm baffled at your comment as well. HSTs in their current form (i.e. consisting of 7, 8 or 9 coaches) will often run 'OEO' (one engine only) if there is an issue with one power car. Indeed they can remain in service like it all day if required, albeit with less sprightly performance than usual. I'm unsure why doing so with only four or five coaches is likely to present a problem if it's perfectly doable with a full set. And indeed, the in-built ability to keep going after a power car failure has benefited the railway probably thousands of times in the past 40 years, it certainly isn't "worrying"! It's exactly the same for every multi-engined DMU by the way, plenty of those running around with defective engines isolated.

 

[cf111]

I've been on a HST running one power car only before on the Highland Mainline, we lost time but it wasn't catastrophic. Set was switched at Edinburgh.

 

[Marklund]

I'm baffled at your comment as well. HSTs in their current form (i.e. consisting of 7, 8 or 9 coaches) will often run 'OEO' (one engine only) if there is an issue with one power car. Indeed they can remain in service like it all day if required, albeit with less sprightly performance than usual. I'm unsure why doing so with only four or five coaches is likely to present a problem if it's perfectly doable with a full set. And indeed, the in-built ability to keep going after a power car failure has benefited the railway probably thousands of times in the past 40 years, it certainly isn't "worrying"! It's exactly the same for every multi-engined DMU by the way, plenty of those running around with defective engines isolated.

Currently, ScotRail run a fairly standard MU railway, where rescue is easily rectified, (apart from the Edinburgh incident last year!) The volume of HSTs currently running north of Edinburgh probably doesn't make sense, however the volume of HSTs is going to rise greatly.

From the last time I visited Aberdeen, there weren't many locomotives sitting around all day, other than the sleeper's loco, hence my earlier reference to having an agreement with CS.

Yes, PC can couple to PC with the coupling bar, but having options, such as getting a Sleeper loco to rescue, rather than getting a loco from the Central Belt several hours away would be prudent.

With the fall out from the Edinburgh failure, that's why I'm concerned that their only back up is relying on the second power car.
If there's a failure within the first few weeks that requires a tow from several hours away, well, that's not going to look very good for themuch trumpeted "new" 40 year old stock.