Single Justice Procedure Notice from Chiltern Railways

[Moppet]

Hi everyone,

Last September I was stopped by a Revenue Protection Officer after I had passed through the barriers at my destination station. I started my journey at Hall Green and ended it at Birmingham Moor Street. They asked to see my ticket, and when I showed it to them, they said it was invalid as I had bought it after the train had departed. They asked for my personal details and said they would report the matter.

I was running late to work that day, and even though it seems obvious to me now, I didn't know that it was illegal to buy your ticket after the train had departed. Running late for things is a very very common occurrence for me, so I developed a habit of doing this. I'm quite sure I had done it several other times before this particular incident, but I can't remember the exact details of how many times or when.

Anyway, yesterday I received the letters attached below. After doing some research, and reading some other advice on this forum, I sent an email to the Fraud Team at Chiltern Railways. I aimed to say the following in my email: 1) I'm very sorry for what I did 2) What I have learnt from the incident 3) That I'm keen to settle the matter without court action 4) Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's admin costs in dealing with the matter. This is what the email said:

"Dear Sir/Madam,

I have received a letter regarding an incident that took place on Monday 18th September 2023, during which I was unable to show a member of staff a valid ticket for the journey I had just completed. My ticket was invalid because I had bought it after the train had departed. My Customer Reference as per the letter is XXXXXX.

I would like to start off by saying that I am very sorry for doing this. I have ADHD and really struggle with time management, so I tend to be running late for things quite often. Please see the document attached for evidence of my diagnosis. I didn't realise that I was breaking the law by getting my ticket after I had boarded the train. I have now learnt that this is not okay, and in the future, I will ensure I buy my ticket beforehand.

I am keen to resolve this matter by way of an administrative disposal, as I am worried that a criminal conviction may have a detrimental effect on my future. I am willing to pay the outstanding fare and any administrative costs that the train company may have incurred as a result of investigating this matter. Thank you for your time.

Kind regards,
(My name)"

I originally included a line which alluded to the fact that I've made the same mistake on other occasions. But my brother told me to remove it as he thought it was incriminating. After doing some more research on this forum, it seems as though it would have been better if I admitted to this and emphasized that I would really like to reach an out of court settlement, and am willing to be completely honest and cooperative to do so.

My questions now are:

1) Does anyone have an idea of how they may respond?
2) If I receive an email repeating that they think I may have done the same thing on other occasions, and inviting me to attend a voluntary interview, how should I respond? Should I admit to this, emphasize that I would really like to work towards an out of court settlement by being completely honest and cooperative, and ask for a written list of questions and/or list of journeys they found suspicious? I have seen a user on this forum advising someone to request this. But I'm not sure if it would agitate them as I've already emailed them.
3) Have I potentially made things worse by sending the email I sent today?

Any help would really be appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Brissle Girl]

It’s a pretty good letter imo, although I usually encourage people to ask more overtly for an out of court settlement “I would be very grateful…”.

I’m not sure if they will be able to tell if previous tickets were purchased after departure. So long as you were buying a ticket for each day that you travelled, then I would hope that they discount these from the investigation, if they do spot them. The exception would be if tickets were purchased that give a suspicion of short faring in comparison to your address.

 

[furlong]

I'm confused. Did the ticket you showed cover your whole journey? If so, why are they requesting compensation of £3.30? Surely that amount should be zero shouldn't it as you have already paid your fare?

 

[Moppet]

I'm confused. Did the ticket you showed cover your whole journey? If so, why are they requesting compensation of £3.30? Surely that amount should be zero shouldn't it as you have already paid your fare?

Hi, thanks for your response. Yes, the ticket showed did cover my whole journey. But it was deemed invalid for the train I was on as I bought it for the next train, as after the train had departed it wasn't possible to buy tickets for my train anymore.

 

[furlong]

In what way might you not have paid your fare on other occasions? While technically in particular circumstances it can be a byelaw offence to buy after boarding, as long you paid for the correct fare between the correct stations covering your entire journey, no further money is owed and any investigation or prosecution would seem pointless. If it goes to court you should consider contesting the compensation request and putting forward mitigation to try to get a discharge without a fine.

Presumably you can still produce the ticket you purchased as evidence, confirming its origin, destination, type, price, time of purchase and departure time of your train?

How was it tied to a particular train? Can you give us the full details? Tickets for short journeys in that area aren't normally tied to any particular train.

One more thought, is the address you gave them close to Hall Green station - or if not, how do you get there?

 

[Moppet]

In what way might you not have paid your fare on other occasions? While technically in particular circumstances it can be a byelaw offence to buy after boarding, as long you paid for the correct fare between the correct stations covering your entire journey, no further money is owed and any investigation or prosecution would seem pointless. If it goes to court you should consider contesting the compensation request and putting forward mitigation to try to get a discharge without a fine.

Presumably you can still produce the ticket you purchased as evidence, confirming its origin, destination, type, price, time of purchase and departure time of your train?

How was it tied to a particular train? Can you give us the full details? Tickets for short journeys in that area aren't normally tied to any particular train.

Sorry I didn't make the part about how it was tied to a particular train very clear. As the member of staff approached me after I had just gotten off the train and passed through the barriers to leave Birmingham Moor Street, he knew I had gotten off that particular train. Also, after scanning my ticket, he could see that I bought it at 13:31 for a train that was supposed to come at 13:56 (editing to correct this after just checked the email), and he spoke to me at 13:40, so it was obvious what I had done.

 

[furlong]

What price did you pay for the ticket? Did it have any discounts? What was the ticket type? For example Off-peak Day Return at £3 pounds something?

 

[Wolfie]

Hi, thanks for your response. Yes, the ticket showed did cover my whole journey. But it was deemed invalid for the train I was on as I bought it for the next train, as after the train had departed it wasn't possible to buy tickets for my train anymore.

Unless you bought an Advance ticket valid for a specific train l don't understand that. An Anytime ticket is valid on any train.

 

[Moppet]

Also as for other occasions I may have not paid my fare, I am honestly not sure. I know for a fact I've done the same thing (buying a ticket after the train has departed) several other times. So I think it may be that? I don't

In what way might you not have paid your fare on other occasions? While technically in particular circumstances it can be a byelaw offence to buy after boarding, as long you paid for the correct fare between the correct stations covering your entire journey, no further money is owed and any investigation or prosecution would seem pointless. If it goes to court you should consider contesting the compensation request and putting forward mitigation to try to get a discharge without a fine.

Presumably you can still produce the ticket you purchased as evidence, confirming its origin, destination, type, price, time of purchase and departure time of your train?

How was it tied to a particular train? Can you give us the full details? Tickets for short journeys in that area aren't normally tied to any particular train.

One more thought, is the address you gave them close to Hall Green station - or if not, how do you get there?

really recall any instances of shortfaring or anything like that

 

[furlong]

(What we're suggesting is the train company might have made a mistake with their paperwork here. But we do need specific answers to the questions such as the exact price of the ticket.)

 

[Moppet]

What price did you pay for the ticket? Did it have any discounts? What was the ticket type? For example Off-peak Day Return at £3 pounds something?

I paid £2.15 for the ticket because I applied a (valid) adult 16-25 railcard. The ticket was an Anytime Day Single for Standard class

Unless you bought an Advance ticket valid for a specific train l don't understand that. An Anytime ticket is valid on any train.

Hello, yes I thought the same thing which is why I made this a habit. But according to the member of staff I spoke to it wasn't okay. And he insisted I should have bought the ticket beforehand as some people will only pay if they see an inspector.

In what way might you not have paid your fare on other occasions? While technically in particular circumstances it can be a byelaw offence to buy after boarding, as long you paid for the correct fare between the correct stations covering your entire journey, no further money is owed and any investigation or prosecution would seem pointless. If it goes to court you should consider contesting the compensation request and putting forward mitigation to try to get a discharge without a fine.

Presumably you can still produce the ticket you purchased as evidence, confirming its origin, destination, type, price, time of purchase and departure time of your train?

How was it tied to a particular train? Can you give us the full details? Tickets for short journeys in that area aren't normally tied to any particular train.

One more thought, is the address you gave them close to Hall Green station - or if not, how do you get there?

Also sorry I didn't answer your other questions. I still have the ticket for evidence, and the member of staff also provided a screenshot in his evidence which also came with the letters I received. It does confirm the origin, destination, type, price and time of purchase. As for time of departure, it doesn't have that. It just says 18th September 2023 00:00 - 19th September 2023 04:29, which I assume shows when it would be valid for.

As for the address I gave them, its very close to Hall Green Station. So I either walk or my parents give me a lift if they are able to.

 

[spag23]

Unless you bought an Advance ticket valid for a specific train l don't understand that. An Anytime ticket is valid on any train.

But not valid if purchased during a journey you are already on? ie it's clear evidence of having boarded without a ticket.

 

[furlong]

And why did you get a single rather than a return? How were you getting home?

 

[Moppet]

And why did you get a single rather than a return? How were you getting home?

I was working in retail at the time, and for my shifts between 14:00 - 20:30, I would normally get the bus home. As the train would leave around 20:30 and the next one wouldn't come until 21:30.

 

[furlong]

So when they look at your ticket purchase records, you think they'll see lots of single journeys without a corresponding return which they might think suspicious. Anything else?

 

[Moppet]

So when they look at your ticket purchase records, you think they'll see lots of single journeys without a corresponding return which they might think suspicious. Anything else?

Well yes, now that you mention it, that does look suspicious. I honestly don't know what else they may have seen that would be suspicious. I'm quite clumsy and make a lot of mistakes, so I've probably done things like bought two singles separately instead of buying a return if I'm going to meet up with friends. I've started going through my purchase history to see if I can find anything else, including other instances when I've bought a ticket after the train has departed

 

[Brissle Girl]

Unless you bought an Advance ticket valid for a specific train l don't understand that. An Anytime ticket is valid on any train.

Is their approach not consistent with the usual approach of discounting any price paid for a ticket which was not valid in coming up with a settlement offer? In this case it was not purchased before travel so was not valid, therefore a completely new ticket has to be paid for.

 

[furlong]

(Well I might have been a lot firmer responding, saying that as I'd already paid the correct fare and there was clearly no evasion or attempt at evasion, if convicted, I'd be seeking a discharge and opposing any order for compensation or costs, and suggesting they should reconsider. I might also throw in that I didn't think that statute law considered this to be fare evasion and so I'd invite the courts to consider that question too.)

Do you have records of any of the bus journeys too? If you can pull out something showing you caught the bus home that day, it would be ideal. You don't have to provide any of this evidence to them of course, but if you have it, pragmatically it could be quickest way of getting them to give up. Why that alone would justify an interview though I have really no idea!

 

[Moppet]

(Well I might have been a lot firmer responding, saying that as I'd already paid the correct fare and there was clearly no evasion or attempt at evasion, if convicted, I'd be seeking a discharge and opposing any order for compensation or costs, and suggesting they should reconsider. I might also throw in that I didn't think that statute law considered this to be fare evasion and so I'd invite the courts to consider that question too.)

Do you have records of any of the bus journeys too? If you can pull out something showing you caught the bus home that day, it would be ideal. You don't have to provide any of this evidence to them of course, but if you have it, pragmatically it could be quickest way of getting them to give up. Why that alone would justify an interview though I have really no idea!

Yes, I do have evidence of the bus journey home as it shows up on my bank statement

 

[AlterEgo]

This is getting far too involved for a simple matter. The OP committed an offence by boarding the train without a valid ticket. I am not so sure dancing on the head of a pin about £3.30 is helpful at this stage?

 

[furlong]

Is their approach not consistent with the usual approach of discounting any price paid for a ticket which was not valid in coming up with a settlement offer? In this case it was not purchased before travel so was not valid, therefore a completely new ticket has to be paid for.

They may refer to the railcard T&Cs to try to do this, but I don't think that covers e-tickets adequately, and there could be technical arguments that once the discounted ticket has been sold it's too late to go back and ask for a non-discounted fare, against that that it was sold for a different train, against that that no ticket was offered for the original train etc. etc.

Sadly, the OP seems to be just another victim of the railway's inconsistency and mixed messaging.

This is getting far too involved for a simple matter. The OP committed an offence by boarding the train without a valid ticket. I am not so sure dancing on the head of a pin about £3.30 is helpful at this stage?

Well quite - why on earth are they pursuing this through the courts, instead of just sending a warning letter advising the OP not to do this any more and explaining why?

 

[dosxuk]

As Hall Green is regularly mentioned on these pages as a donutting / short faring origin hotspot, I would imagine Chiltern and the original inspector are reading a lot more into the possible situation here. I expect it's very rare for them to find someone with an address actually local to the station when they follow up the investigation.

 

[Brissle Girl]

They may refer to the railcard T&Cs to try to do this, but I don't think that covers e-tickets adequately, and there could be technical arguments that once the discounted ticket has been sold it's too late to go back and ask for a non-discounted fare, against that that it was sold for a different train, against that that no ticket was offered for the original train etc. etc.

Sadly, the OP seems to be just another victim of the railway's inconsistency and mixed messaging.


Well quite - why on earth are they pursuing this through the courts, instead of just sending a warning letter advising the OP not to do this any more and explaining why?

That might well be the case, but we could have (and seem to be having) this type of “right or wrong” debate on numerous threads, which don’t help the OP, and indeed may confuse them as to what is the best advice.

Regardless of our opinion on what is right, surely we should focus on our advice to the OP?

 

[Snow1964]

As Hall Green is regularly mentioned on these pages as a donutting / short faring origin hotspot, I would imagine Chiltern and the original inspector are reading a lot more into the possible situation here. I expect it's very rare for them to find someone with an address actually local to the station when they follow up the investigation.

That's my thought too, might be not because a valid anytime day ticket was bought (even if bought late on the train, which would be problem if caught on the train), but because his home address is at at a station frequently used by short faring. The travelling out by train, back by bus means probably also need to give evidence of stating return by bus, otherwise they will presume buying singles to get through barriers, but getting free ride home.

The only real charge is boarding without valid ticket, as a ticket was in existence at point of being stopped. That is the charge being applied under bylaw 18(1) entering train without valid ticket.

Unless Op admits to waiting until on the train to buy previous tickets (and thus incriminates himself), Chiltern don't really know if he bought on app whilst still on platform, and got later train on previous occasions (I know it gives date in history, but does it also record time of starting transaction, or just when completing transaction). So best bet is to confirm buy on app, but whilst waiting for train, although on this occasion train arrived before you bought ticket

 

[island]

In what way might you not have paid your fare on other occasions? While technically in particular circumstances it can be a byelaw offence to buy after boarding, as long you paid for the correct fare between the correct stations covering your entire journey, no further money is owed and any investigation or prosecution would seem pointless.

You're entitled to that opinion, but as you well know, the law states that a ticket must be held upon boarding the train, and by failing to do so, the OP committed an offence. We are here to advise the OP on what the law is, not what you think "seems pointless".

The fact that the fare was paid on this occasion means that a claim for compensation of £3.30 should fail, but the offence once committed cannot be un-committed and the train company is entitled to prosecute.

The subsequent investigation has given the train company reason to believe that further or other short-faring offences may have occurred, and I endorse Snow1964's points in that respect.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I think it is a good letter although given the one way journey that you make and the fact this is a station they see a lot of short faring from I wonder if it would be worth including the reason it was a single in your response and highlighting that this is your local station.

On a separate note it seems we are seeing this a lot now, a SJP is issued as the opening gambit of the TOCs negotiation. Is this a proper use of SJPs? As well as the short timescales involved for the expected response to an interview request, a copy will / should have been filed with the court, and will have to be formally withdrawn if a settlement is agreed. Chiltern’s letter states ‘as we have yet to conclude our investigation’ which seems completely at odds with a decision to file charges. Imagine the police filing charges before they had even finished investigating.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I think it is a good letter although given the one way journey that you make and the fact this is a station they see a lot of short faring from I wonder if it would be worth including the reason it was a single in your response and highlighting that this is your local station.

On a separate note it seems we are seeing this a lot now, a SJP is issued as the opening gambit of the TOCs negotiation. Is this a proper use of SJPs? As well as the short timescales involved for the expected response to an interview request, a copy will / should have been filed with the court, and will have to be formally withdrawn if a settlement is agreed. Chiltern’s letter states ‘as we have yet to conclude our investigation’ which seems completely at odds with a decision to file charges. Imagine the police filing charges before they had even finished investigating.

Your second paragraph should probably be split off into a separate thread, but I suspect their argument would be that they are prosecuting in respect of the one known offence, and the ongoing investigation is in respect of other instances.

 

[Fermiboson]

Chiltern may argue that the investigation on their side for this particular alleged offence is complete and they are investigating any other possible offences.

 

[fandroid]

The OP has responded within the 10 March deadline as required by Chiltern's letter. We haven't covered the "or you decline to be interviewed" part.

What are we advising on this point? Normally we advise people to never attend an interview without a legal advisor.

This is the second Chiltern SJPN we have recently seen for apparently trivial or spurious "offences" picked up in September 2023, ie just in time to meet the 6 month legal deadline.

 

[KirkstallOne]

Both good points regarding the investigations being separate but given they have explicitly tied the ultimate decision to prosecute or not to the other alleged offences I think it is a difficult argument for them to make. However I don’t wish to derail this thread any further.