Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[furnessvale]

Not having a pop at you here, but something you've said has niggled me. Just because something meets the legal standard, it doesn't mean it's safe.... if I get in my car after a beer and I blow 35mgu(?) into the friendly officers machine (I think you can actually get away with up to 42). I've met the legal limit, however is it as safe as driving without beer, no, I've significantly increased the risk to other people, now I know it doesn't directly relate to DOO, but safe and legal are not the same thing.

Christmas day is statistically the safest day for passengers and suicides on the railway.

If we are looking at ultimate safety, perhaps we should use the Christmas day timetable every day?

 

[Carlisle]

Christmas day is statistically the safest day for passengers and suicides on the railway.

If we are looking at ultimate safety, perhaps we should use the Christmas day timetable every day?

No still far too dangerous!, safety critical red flag carriers for every vehicle working a very max of 30 hour 3 day week, no zero hour contracts or minimum wage plus 52 days paid annual leave .

 

[pompeyfan]

Christmas day is statistically the safest day for passengers and suicides on the railway.

If we are looking at ultimate safety, perhaps we should use the Christmas day timetable every day?

I'm not on about ultimate safety, it's physically not possible to achieve (which you well know).... I'm on about adding risk for no benefit to anyone.... my point still stands in that you may well be legal, it's not to anyone's benefit and it's less safe....

And Carlisle, well, what can I say to your comment, clearly you've got an issue with train crew as well as an issue with sensible discussion.

 

[Carlisle]

And Carlisle, well, what can I say to your comment, clearly you've got an issue with train crew as well as an issue with sensible discussion.

I don't have an issue with anyone, and have always had the opinion both sides have handled different parts of this whole dispute terribly

 

[pompeyfan]

I don't have an issue with anyone, and have always had the opinion both sides have handled different parts of this whole dispute terribly

While I agree with that 100%, your comment is unfair to the majority of traincrew who want to get the job done, but have genuine concerns over safety.

 

[otomous]

Not having a pop at you here, but something you've said has niggled me. Just because something meets the legal standard, it doesn't mean it's safe.... if I get in my car after a beer and I blow 35mgu(?) into the friendly officers machine (I think you can actually get away with up to 42). I've met the legal limit, however is it as safe as driving without beer, no, I've significantly increased the risk to other people, now I know it doesn't directly relate to DOO, but safe and legal are not the same thing.

I think Red Button is saying us drivers who have signed contracts for DOO work are on difficult grounds in challenging the safety aspects of DOO due to such things as cameras meeting a legal standard as opposed to being satisfactory at all times. But I agree with your point. Also I agree that certain posters just have an issue with train crew, regardless of he arguments put to them.

 

[Southern Dvr]

If we are looking at ultimate safety, perhaps we should use the Christmas day timetable every day?

I thought Southern were doing that already?

 

[redbutton]

Not having a pop at you here, but something you've said has niggled me. Just because something meets the legal standard, it doesn't mean it's safe.... if I get in my car after a beer and I blow 35mgu(?) into the friendly officers machine (I think you can actually get away with up to 42). I've met the legal limit, however is it as safe as driving without beer, no, I've significantly increased the risk to other people, now I know it doesn't directly relate to DOO, but safe and legal are not the same thing.

Oh trust me, I fully agree that safe and legal are not the same thing. My comment was specifically in response to the question of why ASLEF aren't taking Southern to task over not proactively upgrading the CCTV.

I believe they haven't done it because the government and regulator say it's "safe enough" (because it meets the legal standard) and they don't yet have a signed contractual obligation to compel GTR to do so. Under those conditions, even though we drivers may not think it's very safe, the media and therefore the public are likely to disagree.

If it looks like we're on the cusp of getting a contractual commitment for new CCTV anyway, and the ORR have already compelled GTR to provide training on what to do when the cameras fail (degraded dispatch), then maybe that's not a battle worth fighting publicly anymore.

 

[furnessvale]

I'm not on about ultimate safety, it's physically not possible to achieve (which you well know).... I'm on about adding risk for no benefit to anyone.... my point still stands in that you may well be legal, it's not to anyone's benefit and it's less safe....

And Carlisle, well, what can I say to your comment, clearly you've got an issue with train crew as well as an issue with sensible discussion.

If that was true I would be the first to demand retention of a guard.

 

[pompeyfan]

If that was true I would be the first to demand retention of a guard.

Okay, I'll have a little nibble;

How can it be just as safe to have a driver looking at grainy screens smaller than most people's smartphone that struggle with contrast from the sun, compared to someone actually looking with their eyes?

 

[Barn]

Okay, I'll have a little nibble;

How can it be just as safe to have a driver looking at grainy screens smaller than most people's smartphone that struggle with contrast from the sun, compared to someone actually looking with their eyes?

Probably not wise to get into all this again, but one reason is surely that the guard looking with their eyes might be looking at something up to a quarter of a kilometre away, whereas the driver is looking at an image from a nearby camera trained on the doors.

 

[74A]

Okay, I'll have a little nibble;

How can it be just as safe to have a driver looking at grainy screens smaller than most people's smartphone that struggle with contrast from the sun, compared to someone actually looking with their eyes?

What about on the SWT network where guards use CCTV to despatch ? Or is it OK for guards to use it but not drivers ?

 

[otomous]

Probably not wise to get into all this again, but one reason is surely that the guard looking with their eyes might be looking at something up to a quarter of a kilometre away, whereas the driver is looking at an image from a nearby camera trained on the doors.

But the guard can move about to get the best position, but the driver's view is fixed. Also when a platform is busy a driver gets a false view - he is looking at an overall picture made up of smaller ones which means the same people can be moving in different pictures - which creates a delay because it leaves us less certain as to when to close up. Even zooming in as on 700s doesn't entirely help as then the other pictures are not visible. Being able to close doors off one coach at a time would help.

 

[Barn]

But the guard can move about to get the best position, but the driver's view is fixed. Also when a platform is busy a driver gets a false view - he is looking at an overall picture made up of smaller ones which means the same people can be moving in different pictures - which creates a delay because it leaves us less certain as to when to close up. Even zooming in as on 700s doesn't entirely help as then the other pictures are not visible. Being able to close doors off one coach at a time would help.

All good points. I'm neither a guard nor a driver so I don't really have an official opinion. I have made a bit of an effort to look down trains as I board or alight from them to get a "guard's eye view", though, and on 12-car trains the action really is quite a long way away.

Probably the very best option would be the use of a guard together with platform-mounted CCTV.

 

[otomous]

All good points. I'm neither a guard nor a driver so I don't really have an official opinion. I have made a bit of an effort to look down trains as I board or alight from them to get a "guard's eye view", though, and on 12-car trains the action really is quite a long way away.

Probably the very best option would be the use of a guard together with platform-mounted CCTV.

The lack of discretion in the debate is frustrating. An off peak 4 car with the best on board cameras can be happily dispatched by a driver; a 12 car peak working with low sunlight shining straight into the cameras is a different matter. If only the DFT would acknowledge that there is not one size that fits all.

 

[pompeyfan]

What about on the SWT network where guards use CCTV to despatch ? Or is it OK for guards to use it but not drivers ?

That's completely different, the cameras in that situation are displayed in high res, they only get 2, maximum 3 feeds on the equivalent of 42" screen......

 

[furnessvale]

Okay, I'll have a little nibble;

How can it be just as safe to have a driver looking at grainy screens smaller than most people's smartphone that struggle with contrast from the sun, compared to someone actually looking with their eyes?

I am purely relying on statistics of deaths, injuries etc.

If those stats are wrong, I am sure RMT can produce hard facts rather than emotion?

 

[74A]

I am purely relying on statistics of deaths, injuries etc.

If those stats are wrong, I am sure RMT can produce hard facts rather than emotion?

They can't because there aren't any.

 

[pompeyfan]

I am purely relying on statistics of deaths, injuries etc.

If those stats are wrong, I am sure RMT can produce hard facts rather than emotion?

We're going round in circles here, and You didn't answer my question, how can CCTV images that Southern admit are inadequate (by the fact they were willing to spend money to upgrade/improve them) be as safe as guard dispatch. In terms of facts, surely that fact RAIB PTI incidents are something like 8:2 DOO:guard dispatch. This argument has been done time and time again....

 

[Moonshot]

We're going round in circles here, and You didn't answer my question, how can CCTV images that Southern admit are inadequate (by the fact they were willing to spend money to upgrade/improve them) be as safe as guard dispatch. In terms of facts, surely that fact RAIB PTI incidents are something like 8:2 DOO:guard dispatch. This argument has been done time and time again....

Thats a figure I have not seen before, where did you find that ?

 

[Carlisle]

your comment is unfair to the majority of traincrew who want to get the job done, but have genuine concerns over safety.

It wasn't intended as serious, and I'm sure despite Mr Cash's attempt to escalate things nearer to a national stoppage, a fair number of traincrew are reasonably willing to spend a lot more time trying to reach a suitable compromise first

 

[313103]

It wasn't intended as serious, and I'm sure despite Mr Cash's attempt to escalate things nearer to a national stoppage, a fair number of traincrew are reasonably willing to spend a lot more time trying to reach a suitable compromise first

DFT want rid of Guards full stop, DFT want to reduce the amount of staff the railway companies employ, so i would like to ask you how does one compromise with this?

You either stick up for yourself or give in, i know which one i would choose.

 

[otomous]

I am purely relying on statistics of deaths, injuries etc.

If those stats are wrong, I am sure RMT can produce hard facts rather than emotion?

DOO drivers can tell you about daily near misses that they are scared to report for fear that they will be held responsible which is one reason why you haven't seen them yet. Or that they will be deemed unfit to do the job if they keep bringing up such difficulties.

Guards are part of a chain of safety measures that have been accumulated over the years. Many such functions have been replaced by technology to a degree, bit crucially, in the dash to cut wage costs, no satisfactory alternatives have been found to the guard leaning out of his own door as a train departed to mitigate against dispatch incidents, a guard preventing a mass exodus if the PA suddenly announces the driver is dead, or to on train or on platform staff to help passengers needing assistance. As has been pointed out many times, a driver cannot give his full attention to the passengers as well as the train, and this is one reason why passengers taken ill causes such problems now. No TOC wants their drivers to get involved with ramps either as they will hear the kerching as the delay minutes mount and the trains start backing up and missing their slot at junctions etc.

 

[otomous]

I am purely relying on statistics of deaths, injuries etc.

If those stats are wrong, I am sure RMT can produce hard facts rather than emotion?

Oh and relying on such things rather than canvassing the experience of those who see this stuff day to day is the easy technique being used to justify anything the DFT feel like doing these days:

The RSSB says DOO is fine so it must be

The RAIB didn't explicitly say a guard would have mitigated against an incident so we don't need them

We have Assisted Travel so no need for staff to help

The Gibb Report says it's the unions so it can't be anyone else's fault

Etc etc

 

[HH]

DOO drivers can tell you about daily near misses that they are scared to report for fear that they will be held responsible which is one reason why you haven't seen them yet.

I do hope this is not true, because it would be a sackable offence.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

no satisfactory alternatives have been found to the guard leaning out of his own door as a train departed to mitigate against dispatch incidents

What about where the guard is dispatching from a local door on modern stock? They can't lean out a window or door then

 

[otomous]

I do hope this is not true, because it would be a sackable offence.

Well welcome to the world we are in...how is a near miss defined? If someone runs at some closing doors and bounces off and falls in the gap, the outcome varies according to whether the driver sees it; what if they just get pushed back on to the platform but take it personally and complain? If there is CCTV, it might be clear cut, it might not be - it could be a question of interpretation, but if not, it's the driver's word against the public, and guess whose word is usually instantly disbelieved these days, even before any evidence has been examined? Yes these are issues for guards too, but the guard has an inherently better view of things usually and is just more "in tune" with what is taking place on a platform. Drivers are very cut off especially with body side cameras. What if someone gets injured at the side of the train that shows only in the last couple of frames of the footage as the driver moves off? Should he have seen that? Can he be held responsible? What if he blinked or was looking ahead by then (bear in mind he's done all his checks and has interlock). These are all fears we have attempted to raise but no one seems to be listening, least of all the people with the power to change it. Frankly, they appear to regard the odd driver as expendable, regardless of the devastating effect on his life, and their fears about passengers seem to come down to can we be sued, can we be personally held liable. We walk a fine line and that is our concern.

 

[otomous]

What about where the guard is dispatching from a local door on modern stock? They can't lean out a window or door then

Exactly. No satisfactory alternative has been found. The cynic in me thinks that modern stock was deliberately designed this way to make it easier to use this argument when the day came!

 

[amarshe]

i use trains from East and North Dulwich and have been forced to use other routes to work during this overtime ban.

My annual season ticket (NDL to LBG) is now largely redundant. With one train an hour in the peaks it's not feasible for me to use and reliably get back to pick up kids from school and I've used up my employer's goodwill in being late when I use Southern.

Quick, simple, direct question: is there an end in sight? Or should I just get a refund on the season ticket?

Delay Repay is pactially worthless at 80p per journey...

 

[Chrisgr31]

The lack of discretion in the debate is frustrating. An off peak 4 car with the best on board cameras can be happily dispatched by a driver; a 12 car peak working with low sunlight shining straight into the cameras is a different matter. If only the DFT would acknowledge that there is not one size that fits all.

I think that is a good point. However I do wonder whether you are correct. When you think about it a number of incidents (Hayes, West Wickham at the least) took place off peak and therefore potentially on shorter trains.

I think there will be less incidents (or at least less seen by staff) on busy trains as other customers will help those that are trapped by holding doors forcing them open etc. On an off peak train the passengers arent there to do that.