Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[tsr]

It seems conductors and OBSs on Southern are now being urged to log all assistance they give to passengers with disabilities, etc., even if they've provided it satisfactorily from end-to-end themselves (eg. unstaffed origin, passenger stayed on same train, unstaffed destination), so that detailed stats can be drawn up.

Previously, this was done on an ad-hoc basis where the crew would just alert others when handing over the train, and if possible the passenger's destination station, with Control being a last resort for arrangements if nobody else would be there to help.

I don't know the precise motives for this, but one speculates that any such data (or lack of staff providing it) will be fed back at a fairly high level, given this is one of the key reasons why onboard staff must be retained on certain lines of route.

There are other interesting developments regarding onboard staffing on lines of route which will soon see new TL services, and not bad ones either.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I don't know the precise motives for this, but one speculates that any such data (or lack of staff providing it) will be fed back at a fairly high level, given this is one of the key reasons why onboard staff must be retained on certain lines of route.

I am fairly sure that I have seen this mentioned somewhere as a requirement from the RSSB. Think it has become apparent as part of the Southern dispute and possibly the actions of the Assoc of British Commuters that no one knows how many people that require assistance are travelling.

As a result I am sure I read, and I think it was commented on in a thread on here, TOC staff have been asked to log all cases where assistance is provided, or presumably not provided!

 

[tsr]

There was already a fairly well-known process for booked assistance, and also those passengers needing taxis as a result of no staff assistance being available on the new DOO routes.

This is a bit different, because it seems nothing is too small to be logged when it crops up on the day - going to extremes (which I doubt most staff will), I guess the reports could theoretically include people who've asked for a hand with a pushchair over the gap at Merstham, or helping an old lady with her luggage at Godstone and Tonbridge. Obviously this is a far more frequent type of assistance, but quite often it is absolutely necessary for the wellbeing of passengers. Not everything involves wheelchair ramps!

Anything specific from the RSSB has escaped my memory, presumably because there are so many different aspects to this debate that it's hard for me (or anyone else) to remember everything!

 

[infobleep]

There was already a fairly well-known process for booked assistance, and also those passengers needing taxis as a result of no staff assistance being available on the new DOO routes.

This is a bit different, because it seems nothing is too small to be logged when it crops up on the day - going to extremes (which I doubt most staff will), I guess the reports could theoretically include people who've asked for a hand with a pushchair over the gap at Merstham, or helping an old lady with her luggage at Godstone and Tonbridge. Obviously this is a far more frequent type of assistance, but quite often it is absolutely necessary for the wellbeing of passengers. Not everything involves wheelchair ramps!

Anything specific from the RSSB has escaped my memory, presumably because there are so many different aspects to this debate that it's hard for me (or anyone else) to remember everything!

Any perticular reason why these type of stats couldn't be compiled last year rather than this far into the dispute?

I'll add for those that don't know, I was on the side of keep the guards.

 

[Skimble19]

It seems conductors and OBSs on Southern are now being urged to log all assistance they give to passengers with disabilities, etc., even if they've provided it satisfactorily from end-to-end themselves (eg. unstaffed origin, passenger stayed on same train, unstaffed destination), so that detailed stats can be drawn up.

Previously, this was done on an ad-hoc basis where the crew would just alert others when handing over the train, and if possible the passenger's destination station, with Control being a last resort for arrangements if nobody else would be there to help.

I don't know the precise motives for this, but one speculates that any such data (or lack of staff providing it) will be fed back at a fairly high level, given this is one of the key reasons why onboard staff must be retained on certain lines of route.

There are other interesting developments regarding onboard staffing on lines of route which will soon see new TL services, and not bad ones either.

Station staff on GN are also doing this for all booked and unbooked assistances. I believe the original brief said it was a requirement from the ORR.

 

[313103]

Can confirm that this is not just a Southern thing. They have introduced this on Arriva Trains Wales. It is to provide figures for the ORR.

The details are not quite clear as to what is regarded as an assist though.

 

[StephenHunter]

Whatever your views on this dispute, logging this is worth doing to plan for staffing ahead.

(I would prefer a second person on the train, but would rather have them helping passengers than closing doors; FWIW, I commute on DOO lines)

 

[BestWestern]

Presumably these figures are being collected so thay the DfT can mash them and present satistics which show that, astonishingly, hardly anybody ever needs assistance and actually we don't need those on board staff after all.... Difficult to think of any other motive frankly.

 

[BestWestern]

Presumably these figures are being collected so that the DfT can mash them and present satistics which show that, astonishingly, hardly anybody ever needs assistance and actually we don't need all those on board staff after all. Or maybe that we can provide a much better service to those needing assistance if we employ a load of clueless agency people on minimum wage with barely any training, etc etc.

Difficult to think of any other motive frankly.

 

[pompeyfan]

Presumably these figures are being collected so that the DfT can mash them and present satistics which show that, astonishingly, hardly anybody ever needs assistance and actually we don't need all those on board staff after all. Or maybe that we can provide a much better service to those needing assistance if we employ a load of clueless agency people on minimum wage with barely any training, etc etc.

Difficult to think of any other motive frankly.

Sadly I agree.... the other side of the argument I suppose though is the little boy who cried wolf. If you're going to claim something is essential, then be prepared for it to be proved (or disproved)

 

[Carlisle]

Presumably these figures are being collected so that the DfT can mash them and present satistics which show that, astonishingly, hardly anybody ever needs assistance and actually we don't need all those on board staff after all. Or maybe that we can provide a much better service to those needing assistance if we employ a load of clueless agency people on minimum wage with barely any training, etc etc.

Difficult to think of any other motive frankly.

Unfortunately problems can also occur on non DOO trains crewed supposedly by well trained and paid staff
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Thompson-I-was-forced-to-crawl-off-train.html

 

[philthetube]

Unfortunately problems can also occur on non DOO trains crewed supposedly by well trained and paid staff
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Thompson-I-was-forced-to-crawl-off-train.html

I cannot see any mention of location or staffing levels in this report. She lives in the North East, sometimes commutes to London but was not necessarily on any of those services at the time.

 

[otomous]

Unfortunately problems can also occur on non DOO trains crewed supposedly by well trained and paid staff
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...Thompson-I-was-forced-to-crawl-off-train.html

Where does it say it was fully staffed and non DOO? On a guarded train this is very unlikely to happen because a guard sees who is getting on and off and the train doesn't go until they say. It doesn't rely on the driver having x ray vision or mind reading skills.

Love the way a pro Tory paper manages to blame only people on the front line. Never the company or government policy.

 

[Carlisle]

I cannot see any mention of location or staffing levels in this report. She lives in the North East, sometimes commutes to London but was not necessarily on any of those services at the time.

Sorry I see what you mean however this BBC article clearly states the train concerned was operated by East Coast so wont have been a DOO service http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17522232

 

[313103]

Sorry I see what you mean however this BBC article clearly states the train concerned was operated by East Coast so wont have been a DOO service http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17522232

Well that's not bad considering this incident happened in 2012! I actually thought this was current news.

 

[Carlisle]

Well that's not bad considering this incident happened in 2012! I actually thought this was current news.

True, but it demonstrators that current arguments about providing good disabled access on our railways aren't as clear cut as some of the vehement campaigners for retaining traditional operating methods would have us believe.

 

[Andrew32]

http://www.cityam.com/269866/rmt-union-calls-round-table-talks-all-parties-involved

Talks stall yet again

 

[XDM]

http://www.cityam.com/269866/rmt-union-calls-round-table-talks-all-parties-involved

Talks stall yet again

Just seen what RMT have to say about it on their web site. Miraculous transformation. Their press officer must be on hols. It's well mannered, grammatically correct, not an insult to be seen. I almost miss the usual quote of demands,calling for's, & the almost inevitable basket case invective.

 

[Robertj21a]

http://www.cityam.com/269866/rmt-union-calls-round-table-talks-all-parties-involved

Talks stall yet again

The comment from Mick Cash - "This dispute can be resolved, we have no doubt about that" - and yet GTR said that the RMT hadn't come forward with any new proposals.

So how can the RMT be confident that the dispute can be resolved ?

 

[infobleep]

The comment from Mick Cash - "This dispute can be resolved, we have no doubt about that" - and yet GTR said that the RMT hadn't come forward with any new proposals.

So how can the RMT be confident that the dispute can be resolved ?

I can't see there being round table discussions as I'm sure GTR previously stated they wouldn't do such a thing.

If such talks did happen then quite rightly I'd be asking the question why didn't they happen sooner.

I am struggling to see a way out of his dispute right now.

 

[Robertj21a]

I can't see there being round table discussions as I'm sure GTR previously stated they wouldn't do such a thing.

If such talks did happen then quite rightly I'd be asking the question why didn't they happen sooner.

I am struggling to see a way out of his dispute right now.

- further talks will break down
- the RMT will call more strikes
- GTR won't budge
- union members will have little money for Xmas/bills

 

[infobleep]

- further talks will break down
- the RMT will call more strikes
- GTR won't budge
- union members will have little money for Xmas/bills

And GTR will continue to not employ enough drivers and rely on overtime, which from time to time might not be forthcoming from the drivers. Who could blame them.

 

[HowardGWR]

And GTR will continue to not employ enough drivers and rely on overtime, which from time to time might not be forthcoming from the drivers. Who could blame them?

Whom, the drivers or GTR (could be blamed)? Or did you ask who would be doing the blaming?

 

[kw12]

http://www.cityam.com/269866/rmt-union-calls-round-table-talks-all-parties-involved

Talks stall yet again

Were last week's talks between Aslef and GTR more successful? Or have further talks between Aslef and GTR also stalled?

 

[Andrew32]

Given the lack of news I'd assume no progress was made.

 

[Southern Dvr]

Given the lack of news I'd assume no progress was made.

Regrettably that's the view or most of the membership as well.

 

[physics34]

Were last week's talks between Aslef and GTR more successful? Or have further talks between Aslef and GTR also stalled?

a text from ASLEF stated they were "constructive" with more talks planned over the next 2 weeks

 

[infobleep]

Whom, the drivers or GTR (could be blamed)? Or did you ask who would be doing the blaming?

Who could blame the drivers for not doing overtime, given how GTR have handled this process.

If I wanted a good example of how not to do change management, GTR would fit the bill exceptionally.

 

[HowardGWR]

Who could blame the drivers for not doing overtime, given how GTR have handled this process.

If I wanted a good example of how not to do change management, GTR would fit the bill exceptionally.

Well, I certainly would not. Indeed, I think it should not be tolerated for safety reasons. If it means higher fares then so be it. I'm not saying overtime should not exist but over a period it should not. So it should be compensated with time off, unpaid of course.

 

[Carlisle]

Well, I certainly would not. Indeed, I think it should not be tolerated for safety reasons. If it means higher fares then so be it. I'm not saying overtime should not exist but over a period it should not. So it should be compensated with time off, unpaid of course.

Considering yesterday's news reported many firms are struggling currently to pay the existing minimum wage, you've no chance of abolishing overtime without increasing the cost of most things with some possibly quite substantially, I'd say overtime isn't generally unsafe, although some managers do seem to require frequent reminders that it's actually voluntary and not compulsory, which appears to be when most of the problems start occurring