Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[backontrack]

ASLEF seems OK with drivers closing doors and deciding when to start ...

ASLEF is a driver's union, whereas guards are members of RMT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ASLEF is a driver's union, whereas guards are members of RMT.

Ironically, this being the case is quite possibly going to motivate ATW to go for more DOO, not less. Once you roll it out throughout the network as a "big bang", the guards can strike all they like, but the trains will still run.

That's essentially what happened on Southern. The guards have lost. It's only a matter of time before they give up, and then the OBSs will quietly go away, probably by way of natural wastage, and nobody will notice.

Logically, to me, on ATW, the Valley Lines should be DOO with "tram conductors" (who are responsible only for passenger care and ticket sales/checking, not operational matters - so a bit like OBS), or even "full DOO" with TVMs and PFs, and the rest of it probably not, though the "tram conductor" idea but safety trained could well speed operations up. (The sluggishness of UK regional rail operation compared with the speediness of Swiss operation using the new FLIRTs is very noticeable).

 

[Gareth Marston]

Ironically, this being the case is quite possibly going to motivate ATW to go for more DOO, not less. Once you roll it out throughout the network as a "big bang", the guards can strike all they like, but the trains will still run.

That's essentially what happened on Southern. The guards have lost. It's only a matter of time before they give up, and then the OBSs will quietly go away, probably by way of natural wastage, and nobody will notice.

Logically, to me, on ATW, the Valley Lines should be DOO with "tram conductors" (who are responsible only for passenger care and ticket sales/checking, not operational matters - so a bit like OBS), or even "full DOO" with TVMs and PFs, and the rest of it probably not, though the "tram conductor" idea but safety trained could well speed operations up. (The sluggishness of UK regional rail operation compared with the speediness of Swiss operation using the new FLIRTs is very noticeable).

I presume you've found a solution to the lack of space on the drivers side of Class 158's to fit cctv monitors?

 

[AlexNL]

I can see why the RMT want to make hay while the sun shines. Once the next operator has been chosen and the franchise agreement has been signed, it's way too late to stop DOO.

It's very well possible that the next operator of the Wales and Borders franchise decides to replace the fleet with new trains. This would make it easier to introduce DOO.

The question is, do the people in Wales (esp. in Valley Lines area) care enough? Or would they be happy with a London Overground like model, with trains running DOO and the stations being staffed throughout the day?

 

[Bromley boy]

I believe that is the case on HS1, which is driver only operated but I believe there must be a second person (an OBM in this case) for safety reasons. This is all covered in previous threads (a Google search will probably find it)

Indeed I believe this is to do with evacuation of passengers onto HS1.

This is unusual in that, although the OBM is non-safety critical (at least in normal circumstances), they must be present for the service to run.

Clearly this is a totally different kettle of fish to the usual DOO situation, and the concerns that DOO + optional OBS is the thin end of the wedge leading to complete removal of the second person. This cannot happen on HS1.

 

[Carlisle]

Indeed I believe this is to do with evacuation of passengers onto HS1.

This is unusual in that, although the OBM is non-safety critical (at least in normal circumstances), they must be present for the service to run.

Clearly this is a totally different kettle of fish to the usual DOO situation, and the concerns that DOO + optional OBS is the thin end of the wedge leading to complete removal of the second person. This cannot happen on HS1.

Posters on here previously have explained the HS1 rule book stated a second staff imember is only mandatory in the rear portion of a double set but as a compromise with the RMT Southeastern agreed on introduction not to run any Javelins single manned .

 

[Bromley boy]

Posters on here previously have explained the HS1 rule book stated a second staff imember is only mandatory on the rear portion when of a double set but as a compromise with the RMT Southeastern agreed on introduction not to run any Javelins single manned .

Interesting.

I knew there was (and may still be) a similar requirement for Eurostars running through the channel tunnel itself. When transiting the tunnel a train manager would sit in the rear cab and was capable of driving the rear half of the train out of the tunnel wrong direction (the sets being effectively two separate trains coupled together that could be split in an emergency).

Not sure about domestic ops limited to HS1 but, as I say, I understood there was such a requirement due to evacuation requirements. This would make sense when linespeed is approx. 190mph!!!

I wonder if someone who currently signs the route, as driver or OBM, could confirm?

 

[gareth950]

I can see why the RMT want to make hay while the sun shines. Once the next operator has been chosen and the franchise agreement has been signed, it's way too late to stop DOO.

It's very well possible that the next operator of the Wales and Borders franchise decides to replace the fleet with new trains. This would make it easier to introduce DOO.

The question is, do the people in Wales (esp. in Valley Lines area) care enough? Or would they be happy with a London Overground like model, with trains running DOO and the stations being staffed throughout the day?

The whole of the Valley lines network will never be fully staffed. There are only four Valley lines stations (Pontypridd, Caerphilly, Cathays, Queen St) that are staffed all day Monday - Saturday and I can't see that changing.

 

[kw12]

Interesting.

I knew there was (and may still be) a similar requirement for Eurostars running through the channel tunnel itself. When transiting the tunnel a train manager would sit in the rear cab and was capable of driving the rear half of the train out of the tunnel wrong direction (the sets being effectively two separate trains coupled together that could be split in an emergency).

Not sure about domestic ops limited to HS1 but, as I say, I understood there was such a requirement due to evacuation requirements. This would make sense when linespeed is approx. 190mph!!!

I thought that OBM is mandatory on HS! because of the HS1 single bore tunnels, rather than the high line speeds.

Where there are two units I think the policy is one member of staff per unit, the driver in the front unit and the OBM in the rear unit.

 

[CN75]

That's essentially what happened on Southern. The guards have lost. It's only a matter of time before they give up, and then the OBSs will quietly go away, probably by way of natural wastage, and nobody will notice.


That's very unlikely, even if Southern/D f T wanted it. To beat the equality legislation from 2010 they have to have someone to help people on and off trains. London Overgound put an agency person on every station before taking away the guards. Southern would have to staff all stations 24/7 where the guards were before. Northern must know this will be an issue so they talk about a mixture of people on trains andstations. Eg fair to predict the centre of Manchester is planned to have DOO with staff at all stations. Merseyrail already have the station staff, so it doesn't make a difference. The same will apply to GA, ATW etc when they speak to their lawyers before DOO. SWT well there is the agreement that the RMT got in 2001 (where were they at the other TOCS!) which will stop MTR from doing DOO who again have to have speak to the lawyers. Also on Southern ASLEF haven't settled so the power to keep the OBS could be in ASLEF hands way into future but then the referendum would have to be a yes vote. It's not ideal but clearly not what McNulty wanted and it never will be.

 

[IKB]

I presume you've found a solution to the lack of space on the drivers side of Class 158's to fit cctv monitors?

Platform monitors.

 

[LowLevel]

Platform monitors.

That's never going to happen. All DfT documents now refer to DOO expansion as requiring no adjustments to station technical infrastructure with the exception of lighting, with all equipment to be carried on trains.

The 158 operated core routes are unlikely to ever become DOO in the true sense regardless of stock given their service styles and locations (long distance, next to no manned stations, lots of tourist traffic). There's plenty of routes of that ilk where the station based staffing is never going to return having been destroyed decades ago and with a suitably sparse service having a double manned train is far more efficent. The day somewhere like Tonfanau got DOO monitors I'd eat my hat. I think unfolding mirrors are actually more likely that sort of change and I don't think they're that likely either.

If you really wanted to go to town on DOO you'd just move the rolling stock around.

 

[IKB]

That's never going to happen. All DfT documents now refer to DOO expansion as requiring no adjustments to station technical infrastructure with the exception of lighting, with all equipment to be carried on trains.

The 158 operated core routes are unlikely to ever become DOO in the true sense regardless of stock given their service styles and locations (long distance, next to no manned stations, lots of tourist traffic). There's plenty of routes of that ilk where the station based staffing is never going to return having been destroyed decades ago and with a suitably sparse service having a double manned train is far more efficent. The day somewhere like Tonfanau got DOO monitors I'd eat my hat. I think unfolding mirrors are actually more likely that sort of change and I don't think they're that likely either.

If you really wanted to go to town on DOO you'd just move the rolling stock around.

I perhaps should have expanded. I'd eat my hat too if such places got monitors, I was intending to suggest there is way around most 'obstacles'.

With specific regards to the Valley Line trains - how many carriages are they? Two or four? Some stations with straight platforms or inward an curve would be suitable for a 'look back' out the drivers window, others could utilise an inexpensive mirror.

But, given as you say most of these stations are unstaffed, I'd wager a second person on board remaining for quite some time.

 

[infobleep]

RMT's intrasigent position has been their downfall in my opinion. They could have got round the table with GTR and ASLEF to discuss a way forward before this dispute even started.
Sorry but you can't guarantee a job for life in this day. Please don't say about joining the race to the bottom. A £30k a year job guaranteed till 2021/2022 is hardly racing to the bottom.

GTR said they didn't want to talk to both parties at the same time. So unless GTR changed their possible entrenched view on this point, it wouldn't have happened.

 

[PHILIPE]

I perhaps should have expanded. I'd eat my hat too if such places got monitors, I was intending to suggest there is way around most 'obstacles'.

With specific regards to the Valley Line trains - how many carriages are they? Two or four? Some stations with straight platforms or inward an curve would be suitable for a 'look back' out the drivers window, others could utilise an inexpensive mirror.

But, given as you say most of these stations are unstaffed, I'd wager a second person on board remaining for quite some time.

Valley trains combination of 2 or 4

 

[infobleep]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned their will be strikes on 3rd and 5th October. Perhaps they did and I missed it.

These are RMT so only a few trains affected, such as the East Croydon to Milton Keynes. Although because of a lack of drivers, they are already running to a reduced service on some days. I guess reduced is better then none.

 

[Sprinter153]

So apparently to 'improve safety at the platform train interface' - after reducing safety at the PTI by imposing DOO - glow in the dark platform edge lighting has been introduced on Platforms 1/2 at East Croydon.

It's an imported idea from metro systems worldwide, apparently; doubtless much back-slapping and self-congratulation will ensue from whichever middle managers thought this up.

 

[jon0844]

So apparently to 'improve safety at the platform train interface' - after reducing safety at the PTI by imposing DOO - glow in the dark platform edge lighting has been introduced on Platforms 1/2 at East Croydon.

It's an imported idea from metro systems worldwide, apparently; doubtless much back-slapping and self-congratulation will ensue from whichever middle managers thought this up.

Haven't TfL tried a number of things at Baker Street? Seems like quite a good idea to test out. The key will be for people to give valuable feedback, good and bad.

 

[Robertj21a]

So apparently to 'improve safety at the platform train interface' - after reducing safety at the PTI by imposing DOO - glow in the dark platform edge lighting has been introduced on Platforms 1/2 at East Croydon.

It's an imported idea from metro systems worldwide, apparently; doubtless much back-slapping and self-congratulation will ensue from whichever middle managers thought this up.

Sounds like a sensible idea anyway. It seems a bit odd to be critical of a new safety feature.

 

[313103]

Sounds like a sensible idea anyway. It seems a bit odd to be critical of a new safety feature.

It seems a bit odd to get rid of one safety feature have nothing in its place and then eventually replace the first safety feature with another but inferior safety feature.

 

[Robertj21a]

It seems a bit odd to get rid of one safety feature have nothing in its place and then eventually replace the first safety feature with another but inferior safety feature.

It still seems to be a sensible idea - there's no point in reigniting the debate about the advantages/disadvantages of DOO on this thread.

 

[StephenHunter]

It seems that a lot of the problems at PTI are caused by the passengers themselves... when was the last time we had a major media railway safety campaign in this country?

 

[tsr]

So apparently to 'improve safety at the platform train interface' - after reducing safety at the PTI by imposing DOO - glow in the dark platform edge lighting has been introduced on Platforms 1/2 at East Croydon.

It's an imported idea from metro systems worldwide, apparently; doubtless much back-slapping and self-congratulation will ensue from whichever middle managers thought this up.

Just a few technical corrections to that...

East Croydon has fortunately never seen driver-only dispatch using cameras, which would be extremely dangerous. It still retains a considerable quota of platform staff for dispatch of absolutely every passenger train. Although there are hazards associated with platform staff dispatch of DOO services, such as there being no competent second person onboard to act upon a hand danger signal once the train has started moving, it is not as dangerous as places on the network which have gone from platform staff + conductor to just DOO cameras (eg. Oxted, with 377 stock).

It is also worth adding that some of the shortest trains at East Croydon are the four-coach trains (from the affected platforms) which originate from Tonbridge, which are often worked by conductors, and which often end up with people running the furthest down the platform to where the train is positioned.

So this is not about destaffing railways or changing dispatch procedures in this instance, which is a nice change really.

The fact of the matter is that East Croydon has a very poor record when it comes to factors such as passengers trespassing, people running down platforms / steps / ramps and injuring themselves, and also people being struck by trains (GX drivers regularly drive trains through ECR significantly under linespeed for this reason).

A huge amount of time, money, manpower and effort has been put into this problem, some of which has been successful, despite the intransigence of passengers and the fact they are apparently not put off by the regular sights of broken limbs and people rolling down the ramps entangled in their suitcases. The blue lighting under the platforms is in the same vein as the frosted windows on the ramps (to prevent people seeing trains in platforms and running to get them) and the trial of staff on the ramps and platforms with megaphones and instructions to tell people off! The lights have actually been in place for a while, but had not been approved for use. The blue colour is also used at some stations to help prevent suicides, which seems to work, fortunately.

 

[pompeyfan]

Thanks for a detailed and enlightening reply as always.

 

[WatcherZero]

Reports ASLEF have made a concession in negotiations with GTR and so a deal is close to being finalised, course any deal could end up being rejected by members again.

 

[387star]

Why do some stations have ra indicators but no cd indicator requiring a hybrid method of dispatch?

 

[LowLevel]

Depends on the location I guess - some locations fitted with RA indicators were installed when parcels and ECS services etc went DOO in the 80s, or to allow relaying of the green flag on loco hauled services so the driver didn't have to hang out of the window.

With the exception of 319s working Thameslink I don't think there were many DOO-P services outside the London suburban area on the Central division until relatively recently so CD indicators weren't required?

 

[Carlisle]

Why do some stations have ra indicators but no cd indicator requiring a hybrid method of dispatch?

It was a system installed at certain stations on the original south central and south west DOO schemes instead of mirrors, or monitors when they were set up during the late 80s, obviously the SW never begun operation, and technology had progressed to CD/RA on BRs later DOO schemes such as networkers etc .

 

[robertclark125]

Reports ASLEF have made a concession in negotiations with GTR and so a deal is close to being finalised, course any deal could end up being rejected by members again.

As you say only reports, but if a concession has been made, it'll be interesting to see what that concession is. And it'll be whether the members find such a concession acceptable.

A few ways to look at it. Firstly, the members are unhappy at the concession by their union, and reject the deal. Secondly, the members may feel the dispute has dragged on long enough, and they feel they aren't going to get much more from GTR, and decide to accept it. Or thirdly, the union leadership feels under pressure to reach a deal, as does GTR, so to avoid losing more public support, the union makes the concession, and the members then decide to accept the deal, so to appease the public.

There could be other ways to look at it, but it's by no means certain the members will accept it, depending what the reported concession is.

 

[Andrew32]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...its-end-as-deal-being-finalised-a3640886.html

Possible concession on the second person according to the standard