Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Robertj21a]

Because money doesn't and shouldn't allow an employer in any industry to do whatever they want or buy any expectation from its employee.

So before you continue to see it as a rant (which it isn't) and criticise. Would you respond to my questions in the same manner ?

Should an employer be allowed to have such an expectation that they can pay an employee high wages in return for favours that are beyond terms and conditions and often compromise the direct rules and regulations ?

I have been asked to make a compromise on many occasions by Management. I have heard Managers state just as you have. We pay you well so shut up and do as your told.

Both my examples are what happens on a regular basis. Not a single job I have had previously takes such an approach with their employees. That doesn't happen to most [non rail] employees around the UK.

Yes I get paid well but omg do I get treated badly.

I was asking a simple question. It only needed a sensible answer.

Who said anything about '....favours that are beyond terms and conditions and often compromise the direct rules and regulations' - I certainly never said anything of the sort, nor had I even considered that approach.

I've tried hard to maintain a generally neutral view of many of the issues arising in the various disputes. I don't always agree with the views of the rail staff (and certainly not some of the outpourings from their Unions) but I've also been concerned by some of the actions of management.

Inevitably, this forum will have far more contributions from rail employees than managers. I certainly appreciate hearing *facts* from both sides [such as the recent comments by Harley Davidson] but there's little or no management input on this thread and it might be better if there was more balance.

 

[physics34]

I went 8 years without a single days sick. Went sick for one day and was told I was up for an 'informal' hearing the day I got back.

That was the first step but I got over it.

A few years ago my Aunt died. I was told that she wasn't considered a close relative and I wouldn't get the day off for her funeral.

However, the vast majority of [non rail] employees across the UK.....

Living the dream on £55k :roll:

At the very least they shouldve moved your rest days to accomodate you going to that funeral

 

[gavin]

1,000 drivers offered a rise equivalent to a 23.8% increase over four years

The basic wage would increase from £49,001 to £60,683 for a basic 4 day 35 hour working week and up to £75,000 with overtime

 

[HarleyDavidson]

1,000 drivers offered a rise equivalent to a 23.8% increase over four years

The basic wage would increase from £49,001 to £60,683 for a basic 4 day 35 hour working week and up to £75,000 with overtime

This has been discussed further up, no need for it to be repeated. More Daily Fail claptrap.

 

[JamesTT]

This has been discussed further up, no need for it to be repeated. More Daily Fail claptrap.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...lastditch-bid-to-settle-dispute-a3566551.html

Also Standard clap trap as well it would seem :roll:

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I never read newspapers they're so dreadfully old hat and out of date, just use online stuff now and even then you have to take some of the stories with an unhealthy dose of salt.

The only good use for a newspaper is draught excluder or emergency bum fodder.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I never read newspapers they're so dreadfully old hat and out of date, just use online stuff now and even then you have to take some of the stories with an unhealthy dose of salt.

The only good use for a newspaper is draught excluder or emergency bum fodder.

 

[bramling]

Could it be that management might actually feel exactly the same way ? - they give higher and higher wages etc but still fail to get any co-operation in return ?

Maybe, but I don't think much is about money. You could double salaries, but still won't get the best out of people if the working atmosphere is toxic due to poor management.

As has been suggested elsewhere in the thread, at a local level even a simple please or thank you goes a mile, yet some people are completely oblivious to this. (To be fair, it works both ways too, anyone who has ever worked a crew running desk will know that you can do wonders for someone for weeks on end, yet on the one occasion a favour is needed in return it doesn't happen or is met with bad grace - thankfully this is the minority of people however).

 

[infobleep]

But AlterEgo said offering them more money would solve the dispute, surely he can't have been wrong? Surely it's not the case that the dispute is genuinely about keeping the travelling public safe?

Yes it is and I'm not a driver. I've read enough from both sides to believe that.

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[infobleep]

I'm already in the 40% tax bracket, that's partially why I refuse to work rest days & overtime. It doesn't pay enough to compensate me for the 40% tax grab, plus other deductions. The RD rate is basic money, so it works out that you're actually doing a day's work for less than a standard day's pay after deductions, so unless the up to the rate to what it used to be and that's back upto Tx1¼ or Tx1½ at least the answer is go away I'm not interested, not even for 12hrs, find some other mug.

That route to Southampton is an absolute joke, if you remember back in CSC days it went to Bournemouth and that got truncated because they couldn't run it properly then, the same should happen to this Southampton service, because the amount of times it gets cancelled at Havant or Fareham is ridiculous and the amount of delays it causes to SW services is ridiculous too, I'm forever putting in delay reports against them or any SN service that makes me late into Havant.

All this service is, is one that was installed for political dogma reasons and for ORCATs raiding. It's very unreliable and should be withdrawn with a simple same platform connection at Havant.

The pressure will really be on with the new SW franchise, with the introduction of the "semi-fast" service from Portsmouth - Southampton, so SN will really have to raise their game.

Why do they need to raise there game for another TOC?

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[infobleep]

I was asking a simple question. It only needed a sensible answer.

Who said anything about '....favours that are beyond terms and conditions and often compromise the direct rules and regulations' - I certainly never said anything of the sort, nor had I even considered that approach.

I've tried hard to maintain a generally neutral view of many of the issues arising in the various disputes. I don't always agree with the views of the rail staff (and certainly not some of the outpourings from their Unions) but I've also been concerned by some of the actions of management.

Inevitably, this forum will have far more contributions from rail employees than managers. I certainly appreciate hearing *facts* from both sides [such as the recent comments by Harley Davidson] but there's little or no management input on this thread and it might be better if there was more balance.

If only more managers would come on here then. Would they want to?

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[Robertj21a]

Maybe, but I don't think much is about money. You could double salaries, but still won't get the best out of people if the working atmosphere is toxic due to poor management.

As has been suggested elsewhere in the thread, at a local level even a simple please or thank you goes a mile, yet some people are completely oblivious to this. (To be fair, it works both ways too, anyone who has ever worked a crew running desk will know that you can do wonders for someone for weeks on end, yet on the one occasion a favour is needed in return it doesn't happen or is met with bad grace - thankfully this is the minority of people however).

Thank you. As you suggest, there are people at all levels of any business who are poor managers, poor communicators and poor at giving out thanks, genuine appreciation etc. My only point was that management are rarely on this forum (perhaps not surprisingly........) so we tend to hear everything from the one side all the time. Some balance is needed.

 

[313103]

Thank you. As you suggest, there are people at all levels of any business who are poor managers, poor communicators and poor at giving out thanks, genuine appreciation etc. My only point was that management are rarely on this forum (perhaps not surprisingly........) so we tend to hear everything from the one side all the time. Some balance is needed.

Judging by some of the comments I've seen on this thread and many others, it would appear managers do frequent this forum and frequently post to. A certain person upwards in this thread posted quite often.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

All I ever ask is for a bit of common courtesy, please & thank you.

I'm not going to tolerate being treated like a petulant child, I'm an adult and sometimes you have to take a stance on things.

Yeah if I make a complete balls up of something then I'll most certainly stick my hands up, but sometimes when I get hauled over the coals for something really trivial, that really gets my hackles up and they wonder why I won't go out of my way to help them out.

Some of it is down to interfering "because I or we can" and that really annoys me especially when we have thing's under control, are getting thing's done and that interference actually slows things down drastically and makes things worse and delays longer!

Some of us old school know what we're doing, leave us alone to do what we need to (get on with it) and we'll be away a darn sight quicker. Yet get a situation like that and get hauled in and grilled for all of the TIN minutes.

You just can't win. I'm now thinking that I really can't wait to retire, because the job that I once knew and enjoyed has been completely wrecked and is now just a chore and I don't think that I'm alone in that train of thought either.

It's a crying shame, because if it wasn't for the toxic attitudes and draconian managerial style, then it might well be a good job, but until the attitudes and draconian managerial style go, then I suspect that there'll be little change of attitudes from the staff.

 

[the sniper]

My only point was that management are rarely on this forum (perhaps not surprisingly........) so we tend to hear everything from the one side all the time. Some balance is needed.

They're here, they just don't 'out' themselves.

 

[otomous]

They're here, they just don't 'out' themselves.

We don't have balance on the railway. They'd only be on here to try and get someone for something as that earns you brownie points in the job. I've known drivers who refused management jobs because the culture was all about "gettting" drivers.

 

[infobleep]

Had anyone here pledged monetary support for the below and what do people think the chances are of it suceeding? The lawyers advising the Association of British Commuters obviously think they might have a case.

I am tempted to contribute but I don't know what it would achieve, even if they won.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/southernfail/

Judicial Review of the Department for Transport over Southern Rail by*Association of British Commuters Ltd.

Lawyers: Devonshires Solicitors LLP

29 days to go

£1,030 pledged of £15,000 target by 16 people

A non-profit organisation campaigning for justice on the Southern Rail crisis since June 2016. We've worked on our judicial review case for 8 months already, and now approach our biggest battle yet...

Pledge now

ABC’s permission hearing at the Royal Courts of Justice: Thursday 29th June

ABC’s application for judicial review is one of the most significant challenges to the Department for Transport in decades. If successful, the case will lead to a ‘declaration of unlawfulness’ in two precedent-setting areas: 1. Government accountability on rail franchising and 2. Government responsibility for disabled access to rail transport. If this case succeeds, it will be a major victory for all passengers - permanently improving the accountability of UK transport policy; as well as finally getting justice for the Southern Rail crisis and all the harm it has done to our families, livelihoods, and communities.

 

[Bromley boy]

Had anyone here pledged monetary support for the below and what do people think the chances are of it suceeding? The lawyers advising the Association of British Commuters obviously think they might have a case.

I am tempted to contribute but I don't know what it would achieve, even if they won.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/southernfail/

Looks like they're not seriously expecting to get permission for a full judicial review, but are going to use the oral hearing for publcity.

A full judicial review of DFT decisions would cost a hell of a lot more than £20k (you'd probably need to add a zero to that figure). Even if they get permission to seek JR I doubt they would have the funds to pursue it.

Theoretically if they get permission, raised the necessary funds to cover their costs and won the the full JR, the actions of the DfT in allowing GTR to operate DOO could be declared illegal for breach of the equalities act. However they're two stages away from this at the moment. First they will need to successfully argue they have standing to bring JR in an oral hearing (they've already lost this argument based on written submissions). Then they will need to win the JR case to obtain a declaration of illegality.

Sadly this seems very far fetched given that DOO is already in place across much of the network, and a declaration of illegality would obviously throw that into question.

EDIT: the lawyers may well think it's unlikely to succeed and will no doubt have advised as such. The commuter group may have elected to bring the action anyway for publicity.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All they're asking for is reassure/confirmation that everything remains as it is. They don't want FMTR coming in with a massive sledgehammer and changing everything, I don't think that is unreasonable to be honest.
If your employer was taken over by a rival group would you not like answers that your job role will remain the same?

So the RMT wants assurances that working arrangements agreed in 1998 will continue for another 7 years (ie left unchanged over 25-odd years)?
In 2017, what industry can guarantee that (even if it doesn't currently plan to do so)?
The 12th word in the RMT press release also calls First MTR an "outfit".
Provocative or what?

 

[Bromley boy]

So the RMT wants assurances that working arrangements agreed in 1998 will continue for another 7 years (ie left unchanged over 25-odd years)?
In 2017, what industry can guarantee that (even if it doesn't currently plan to do so)?
The 12th word in the RMT press release also calls First MTR an "outfit".
Provocative or what?

Probably very few other industries.

However, unlike most other industries, there has been very little substantive change in the way the railway is operated over that time. RMT would probably argue that staff are working over the same infrastructure (albeit with some newer rolling stock) now as they were in 1998, albeit more intensively.

Until there is a huge step forward in technology/infrastructure being operated there is a strong case for saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

 

[mpthomson]

If only more managers would come on here then. Would they want to?

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I suspect that given the confidentiality policies that many companies, public and private, regarding social media have in place, many managers are reluctant to comment, partly because as there are fewer of them it can become easier to identify who they actually are.

There's also a risk of ending up in discussions that, while they probably need to happen, shouldn't happen on an uncontrolled web forum (yes I know it's moderated, but you know what I mean)..

 

[kw12]

Probably very few other industries.

However, unlike most other industries, there has been very little substantive change in the way the railway is operated over that time. RMT would probably argue that staff are working over the same infrastructure (albeit with some newer rolling stock) now as they were in 1998, albeit more intensively.

Until there is a huge step forward in technology/infrastructure being operated there is a strong case for saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

One substantive step forward since 1998 has been replacement of all the slam door trains that had been in use on Southern, SWT and SouthEastern.

 

[Wookiee]

Do the managers get paid anywhere near the same kind of amounts as the drivers?

 

[infobleep]

One substantive step forward since 1998 has been replacement of all the slam door trains that had been in use on Southern, SWT and SouthEastern.

Non slam door stock was already in use she slam doors ended.

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[Chrisgr31]

Incidentally it's worth commenting that plenty of Southern staff do still go out of their way to assist passengers and there are quite often thanks on Twitter for it.

In another incident involving a GTR driver GTR have praised them as well. In this case a driver (Thameslink I believe) was travelling on a train on the BML north when the train was involved in a fatality. The off duty driver assisted in the incident, and then as the booked driver was incapable of going further then took the train and it's passengers to a station where better onward transport could be arranged. The off duty driver then took the train back its depot north of the driver. They were heavily praised by GTR.

I don't believe that any staff follow dogma to such an extent that it frustrates passengers unless they have good reason to. I believe that most staff if asked to work longer to get a service to its destination etc will do if they can and are asked nicely, as they are passengers themselves at time and appreciate passengers issues. However if supervisors or indeed passengers upset them with their conduct it's no surprise they say no on occasions.

 

[Bromley boy]

Do the managers get paid anywhere near the same kind of amounts as the drivers?

I know for a fact my DM draws a higher basic salary than what I get as a driver.

I believe DMs cannot do overtime at my place so, in theory, a driver who smashed lots of rest days could earn more than a manager. They'd be working pretty hard for it, though.

 

[Bromley boy]

I don't believe that any staff follow dogma to such an extent that it frustrates passengers unless they have good reason to. I believe that most staff if asked to work longer to get a service to its destination etc will do if they can and are asked nicely, as they are passengers themselves at time and appreciate passengers issues. However if supervisors or indeed passengers upset them with their conduct it's no surprise they say no on occasions.

I think this is exactly right. There's certainly an expectation that you need to get your train to its destination (or if your train has failed you will need to wait for assistance or, if it can be driven, run it to a location, off the running lines, where it can be stabled), even if it takes you beyond your booked finishing time. No driver would quibble about that.

The problems come where people are asked to curtail their break in order to split a unit or do an additional shunt move at the end of their shift. You are well within your rights as a driver to refuse anything not on your diagram.

I've done both of the above over the last couple of weeks with no worries, but this is down to my goodwill. I can see that, as with any other job, when people are mistreated or taken for granted they will be less inclined to do favours for their employer.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I don't believe that any staff follow dogma to such an extent that it frustrates passengers unless they have good reason to. I believe that most staff if asked to work longer to get a service to its destination etc will do if they can and are asked nicely, as they are passengers themselves at time and appreciate passengers issues. However if supervisors or indeed passengers upset them with their conduct it's no surprise they say no on occasions.

I think that's common across all railwaymen, I take pride in completing the job and where I can I'll always work through. I took one down to Norwich over 3hrs late as we formed the last one back, unfortunately due to communication errors between various controls our passengers were bussed to Ely (which we'd been instructed to avoid on the way back) so we ended up having a last minute reinstatement of the call, quite lucky really as we ended up picking up about 50 people. There's only a few folk on the railway I know who are deliberately obstructive and inflexible at all times, and they're generally disliked by all, passengers and staff alike.

 

[455driver]

Had anyone here pledged monetary support for the below and what do people think the chances are of it suceeding? The lawyers advising the Association of British Commuters obviously think they might have a case.

I am tempted to contribute but I don't know what it would achieve, even if they won.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/southernfail/

I have pledged because the only way to get to the truth (all of it, not just the bits 'they' want to tell us) is for there to be a judicial review.

 

[gavin]

@PA

#Breaking Southern Rail drivers will vote on strikes over pay, threatening disruption at the start of the school holidays, the company says