Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[HH]

I know for a fact my DM draws a higher basic salary than what I get as a driver.

I believe DMs cannot do overtime at my place so, in theory, a driver who smashed lots of rest days could earn more than a manager. They'd be working pretty hard for it, though.

DMs all get more basic than the drivers they manage - how else would they attract the right people to the job? However, in my considerable experience, the amount is generally not so much greater that drivers have to "smash" a lot of rest days. Normally Sunday working is enough to take them considerably above DMs.

For those TOCs that now include Sundays in the working week, then rest days would be required. How many rather depends on the T&Cs at that particular TOC. Some TOCs have quite a lot of extra pay for Rest Day Working, e.g. Thameslink drivers all get £50 per rest day, on top of the rest day rate.

 

[ComUtoR]

DMs all get more basic than the drivers they manage - how else would they attract the right people to the job?

They also get different in work benefits and work different hours. Their terms and conditions could be seen as a good enough incentive too.

 

[HH]

They also get different in work benefits and work different hours. Their terms and conditions could be seen as a good enough incentive too.

Agreed. Although they are part of the on call roster, so it's not as rosy at it might seem at first sight.

 

[northwichcat]

@PA

#Breaking Southern Rail drivers will vote on strikes over pay, threatening disruption at the start of the school holidays, the company says

It seems the RMT want to do a combined Northern/Merseyrail/Southern strike again.

Meanwhile the government have released their report on the Southern problems today: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/southern-rail-network-gibb-report (I've not looked through it yet.)

 

[Wookiee]

During Summer, 2017 I recommend a closure for two weeks of the route between Horsham and Three Bridges, with passengers and trains diverted via Dorking, Epsom and Balham. At the same time, with no trains coming from the Horsham direction, I propose closure of two tracks between Three Bridges and Earlswood, closure of Horley, Salfords and Earlswood stations, and a reduction in service. GTR’s local service between Horsham and Epsom will need to be reduced to provide paths and crews for diverted Arun Valley trains. These two weeks would allow for an intensive and productive period of infrastructure maintenance, on these sections, that are notable for their poor condition.

Doesn't look like that recommendation was taken forward. I suppose I should be grateful, as it would ruin my commute!

 

[Bromley boy]

DMs all get more basic than the drivers they manage - how else would they attract the right people to the job? However, in my considerable experience, the amount is generally not so much greater that drivers have to "smash" a lot of rest days. Normally Sunday working is enough to take them considerably above DMs.

For those TOCs that now include Sundays in the working week, then rest days would be required. How many rather depends on the T&Cs at that particular TOC. Some TOCs have quite a lot of extra pay for Rest Day Working, e.g. Thameslink drivers all get £50 per rest day, on top of the rest day rate.

To equal a DM's basic (around £5k extra) a driver on full salary at my TOC would need to do about twenty rest days. Unfortunately Sundays are inside for us.

I thought TL got more than £50 book-on. I was told £75 book-on + time-and-a-half on Sundays, so total earnings of around £400-500 for a Sunday, depending on shift length. That may well be nonsense, of course, I heard it in the messroom after all!

Although I'm quite new to the job I can't really see myself ever being a DM, or a DI for that matter!

 

[pompeyfan]

Not massively important but at my place guards are on more money than guards managers.

 

[gavin]

Southern will strike on July 10th

 

[WatcherZero]

It seems the RMT want to do a combined Northern/Merseyrail/Southern strike again.

Meanwhile the government have released their report on the Southern problems today: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/southern-rail-network-gibb-report (I've not looked through it yet.)

A dozen technical solutions offered to improve performance of which around a quarter have already been applied, main one though is identifying that the industrial action is the overwhelming cause of most poor performance and unions should butt out of safety and leave it to the independent body whose job it is.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Southern will strike on July 10th

An RMT inspirational cunning plan to disrupt the opening day of the two-day Mass Observation 80th Anniversary Conference at Brighton on 10th/11th July...:roll:

 

[XDM]

Many of us hope RMT will read Gibbs report & hang their heads in shame. He has found that the union's unreasonable objection to DOO was the main cause of Southern travellers misery. Like thousands of posts here he has pointed out that DOO is safe & widespread & has been operating uneventfully for years. He also says indirectly that OBS are not needed.

 

[455driver]

Seriously?! hock:I would have expected ALL on board staff, no matter what job title/function to be trained in evacuation procedures

Only safety critical staff on train staff (ie driver and guard) are trained in evacuation.

An OBS isnt trained in anything train related, not even basic fault finding, everything is done by the driver.

 

[455driver]

@PA

#Breaking Southern Rail drivers will vote on strikes over pay, threatening disruption at the start of the school holidays, the company says

Where as the strike is actually being called because GTR insist on including the DOO talks in with the completely separate (and very late) pay talks.

But then, its always the militant staffs fault isnt it!

 

[pompeyfan]

I came across the following argument on Face***k this evening that I felt I needed to share, people's opinions on this would be welcome.

So lets have a see what you think of this.
Fireman ave wage is £29345 per year
Policeman ave wage is £22962 per year
Nurse ave wage is £24000 per year.
All the above are Average so some higher as well as lower.
Now this is really taking the p**s! Southern train drivers who
all ready earn £49000 per year. And now have rejected a 24% pay rise !!!! This would with other benefits take them to around £70000 a year!! I think this is really taking the ****. How much more do people have to pay for a yearly ticket who earn far less then. Something really not right here and now they are going to go on strike again because of this.
Who risked there lives in the Grenfell tower. Who risk there lives protecting us from terrorists, Who saves our lives when we need it ! Just a thought.

One of the responses was this below

Speaking as one of those '**** taking' drivers, let me correct you on some of the points made above

1) We did not reject a 24% pay rise. Our union did not even ballot us, we as union members have set the criteria for our reps to negotiate. The pay deal negotiations are absolutely separate from the negotiations about DOO. The company were seeking to link pay to DOO, which is completely unacceptable to us, at *any* price, which is why the deal was rejected

2) The pay figures quoted in the media (there are various) are misleading, as they compare basic pay now, to that of someone who works loads of overtime at the future rate of pay. This has been done to whip the travelling public into a froth, and it's working

3) There is a much bigger picture at play here. The whole dispute is being orchestrated by the Tory government, who have an agenda to break the unions powers. The railway is one of the last industries that has a strong union (which is one of the reasons we've managed to raise our standard of pay and conditions), and the Tories don't like that. Southern is a test case, these disputes will be coming to every train company across the country, so we are under a lot of pressure to stay strong and resist

4) You seem to be completely unaware what the dispute is about. DOO which will remove conductors from trains completely. Yes, we now have 'On Board Supervisors' but they are not trained to deal with emergency situations. Whenever similar roles have been introduced elsewhere, they have been quietly removed once the dust has settled. Our OBS will be the same. We carry over 1,000 people on some trains, how can one driver be expected to control all that, while simultaneously dealing with emergency services and protecting the train, should something terrible happen

5) You mention ticket prices. Southern have successfully removed conductors from their trains. Did anyone notice the fares go down? What actually happened was the fares went up immediately afterwards, as part of the standard annual increase. The railways wage bill has absolutely no bearing on ticket prices

6) You draw parallels with police, fire brigade and other emergency services. I'm glad you did. They absolutely deserve higher pay for what they do, nobody could ever argue against that. They have all had similar disputes to us on the railway, against government changes to their industries. In their professional opinion, they said the cuts and changes will cost lives. And they've been proved right. My railway colleagues are shouting the same message as loudly as we can, *safety* is being compromised and lives will be lost. Our message is being ignored, and the media are using sensationalist headlines to muddy the waters

Anyone is entitled to their opinion of course, many will still think I'm a greedy **** taking driver, but the fact of the matter is, I (along with my colleagues) voted for strike action as a last resort, over serious safety implications. I've stood on the picket line for what I believe in (and lost a considerable amount of money in the process....), and I will do it again. No amount of money will make me abandon my principles. Safety is not for sale!

Obviously this one reply doesn't reflect every driver, but I'm sure there's lots on here who would sing from exactly the same hymn sheet.

 

[Bromley boy]

I came across the following argument on Face***k this evening that I felt I needed to share, people's opinions on this would be welcome.



One of the responses was this below




Obviously this one reply doesn't reflect every driver, but I'm sure there's lots on here who would sing from exactly the same hymn sheet.

That seems like a considered, well balanced and articulate reply to the usual anti-driver rant.

It's difficult to find fault with a single word!

 

[Chrisgr31]

Obviously this one reply doesn't reflect every driver, but I'm sure there's lots on here who would sing from exactly the same hymn sheet.

Many of the passengers sing from the same hymn sheet as that staff member too.

 

[nuts & bolts]

Not massively important but at my place guards are on more money than guards managers.

So, a non revenue earning Guard?

 

[HH]

One of the responses was this below

That is a truly excellent response. I do hope that this fine fellow (I use the term in a non-gender denominational sense) is representing his (/her) fellow drivers as a union official, because they clearly have a level of articulation that most would envy.

 

[HH]

A dozen technical solutions offered to improve performance of which around a quarter have already been applied, main one though is identifying that the industrial action is the overwhelming cause of most poor performance and unions should butt out of safety and leave it to the "independent" body whose job it is.

There; fixed that for you.

 

[Deepgreen]

I noted today that the Southern web site has a page about the timetable to be attempted during the overtime ban. It has a reduced service from, among other places, Redhill to London (off-peak). A plea slightly further down the page exhorts us to try to travel at less busy times - less busy than off-peak?!

 

[HLE]

Many of us hope RMT will read Gibbs report & hang their heads in shame. He has found that the union's unreasonable objection to DOO was the main cause of Southern travellers misery. Like thousands of posts here he has pointed out that DOO is safe & widespread & has been operating uneventfully for years. He also says indirectly that OBS are not needed.

Which is one of the reasons why the union took strike action in the first place. OBS aren't needed and we all know they'll probably be gone within a few years.

The government are firmly to blame for this dispute, along with your boss Mr Wilkinson.

How dare the working classes protest about job losses. Where are the new jobs being created in the long term for all the displaced guards? Typical Tories.

All opinions are my own.

 

[Sprinter153]

Many of us hope RMT will read Gibbs report & hang their heads in shame. He has found that the union's unreasonable objection to DOO was the main cause of Southern travellers misery. Like thousands of posts here he has pointed out that DOO is safe & widespread & has been operating uneventfully for years. He also says indirectly that OBS are not needed.

You seem to have something brown on your nose, would you like a tissue?

Just as many of us would rather your mate Gibb hung his head in shame at his proud CV boasts of closing drivers' depots and beating striking Guards!

 

[Joe Paxton]

I genuinely wonder how much custom this dispute is losing the railway on a permanent rather than temporary basis, as people make other travel arrangements, change jobs so they don't have to travel by train and factor it in into house buying and selling, etc etc.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I genuinely wonder how much custom this dispute is losing the railway on a permanent rather than temporary basis, as people make other travel arrangements, change jobs so they don't have to travel by train and factor it in into house buying and selling, etc etc.

It certainly appears that there has been a significant drop in passengers on the Uckfield line, although the extended trains make it slightly difficult to tell. However there do appear to be less cars in the car park.

 

[JamesTT]

Why do 700s have GOP complete with door open and close function and signal bells. Seems a waste of money if DOO is going to be the be all and end all.

 

[bramling]

It certainly appears that there has been a significant drop in passengers on the Uckfield line, although the extended trains make it slightly difficult to tell. However there do appear to be less cars in the car park.

Quite possible given the presence of viable alternative routes for those who railhead by car from surrounding towns and villages - in the form of the Hastings line, the Brighton main line and also East Grinstead.

With the overcrowding experienced on the Uckfield line, perhaps some redistribution of demand isn't such a bad thing to happen anyway.

 

[313103]

Why do 700s have GOP complete with door open and close function and signal bells. Seems a waste of money if DOO is going to be the be all and end all.

The same could of been said of the class 378/1 only ever on DOO lines and the additional 5th car added to the sets, these all had Guard panels, even though the 5th car was delivered after DOO across the whole network.

It does seem a waste of money installing them on these new trains even though as you quite rightly say DOO is going to be the be all and end all.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Quite possible given the presence of viable alternative routes for those who railhead by car from surrounding towns and villages - in the form of the Hastings line, the Brighton main line and also East Grinstead.

With the overcrowding experienced on the Uckfield line, perhaps some redistribution of demand isn't such a bad thing to happen anyway.

Well the new lengthened trains are meant to have solved the overcrowding, and indeed have, masses of space now, what with the reduced number of passengers!

 

[Chester1]

I genuinely wonder how much custom this dispute is losing the railway on a permanent rather than temporary basis, as people make other travel arrangements, change jobs so they don't have to travel by train and factor it in into house buying and selling, etc etc.

Probably a lot. The impending capacity crisis has been averted for now so that is not necessarily a bad change.

 

[infobleep]

That seems like a considered, well balanced and articulate reply to the usual anti-driver rant.

It's difficult to find fault with a single word!

Perhaps XDM would like to try? After all it is good to get an alternative point on something someone has written.

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