Stagecoach Minibuses now launched in Ashford

[PeterC]

It seems a fairly decent concept for most small towns, really.

They would seem to be ideal where I live until you try and catch a bus just after 4pm. For 20 minutes the usual beat up collection of 30 something seaters is absolutely rammed with schoolkids.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They would seem to be ideal where I live until you try and catch a bus just after 4pm. For 20 minutes the usual beat up collection of 30 something seaters is absolutely rammed with schoolkids.

Minibuses on a very high frequency would of course give you the flexibility to provide dedicated school services by thinning the frequency a bit at those times (and it does help that the school "evening peak" doesn't coincide with the work one).

 

[mbonwick]

The experiment might of course prove they can actually fill a high-spec Solo at the higher frequency too. There will be a lot of surveying, stats and monitoring to do on the concept.

As I understand it, the route hasn't responded to marketing initatives with the existing Solos, so they're trying something a bit more radical to trying and tap into the underlying demand. (Would appear that people want to use the bus but don't...)

As you say, if things go well I can easily see an order for 30 Gold-spec Solos being placed.

 

[radamfi]

It may sound bizarre now, but the 18 service from Bath city centre to the university was run by 16 seat Ford Transits when I was there. There can't be many routes that have gone from minibus to a bendy bus, although admittedly there are more students nowadays. At certain times of day, you wouldn't get on if you didn't get on at the terminal points. However, they would run a double decker at 0840 which would help a little. Also, the evening and Sunday service was run by a Leyland National. It sounds illogical to run a full size bus at night and a minibus during the day but I suspected it was because people would have had to wait 15 minutes if the bus was full rather than 6 minutes.

 

[Lynford1976]

Ashford has been a very difficult place for buses. For years a one-way ring road suffocated the town, meaning most services had to do a complete loop before getting anywhere. Stagecoach apparently considered pulling out altogether. Then, the roadworks to make the ring road two-way caused further disruption. I heard that the company took the view there was no point in investing whilst this was going on.

The town routes were run with a mixture of Mercedes minibuses and assorted 'big' buses. Kent County Council then helped Stagecoach with ten new Solos for the A in South Ashford, replacing early low-floor R-reg Darts. The Darts moved onto the C between Kennington and the Hospital and were later updated with newer Darts and Solos from elsewhere. The B was the home to the early Tridents, ex-Canterbury Park & Ride. Further services D (since withdrawn), E, G, H and K came later.

Now Ashford is experiencing massive growth in housing, with several new estates being built to the south of the town and more to come. They have very narrow roads which would cause even a Solo to have problems - hence the Mercedes.

 

[6Gman]

The seating capacity would usuallly exclude the driver's seat and specifically refer to passenger accomodation.

56 isn't a common figure, though. B53F was the standard for a 11m service bus and C49F for a vehicle of similar length with coach seats.

56 used to be a very common figure!

Weren't most of the RTs 56-seaters? And there were nearly 7,000 of them!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stansted Transit played about with minibuses on planning-gain routes for new estates in MK some time ago. It was a different concept, though - a minibus (high floor 17 seat Mercs with wheelchair lifts) was dedicated to each estate and operated a half hourly service on routes that were only about 15 minutes end to end. It didn't really work, though this was mainly because of very low demand due to high car ownership.

 

[overthewater]

Do any of these service pass the train station and HS1?

 

[GusB]

56 used to be a very common figure!

Weren't most of the RTs 56-seaters? And there were nearly 7,000 of them!

Ok, you got me. I was referring specifically to single decks, but you make a fair point

 

[Lynford1976]

Do any of these service pass the train station and HS1?

Yes: nearly all buses stop virtually outside the main entrance to the Domestic station entrance.

 

[theblackwatch]

I've just seen a news story at http://www.route-one.net/articles/Operators/30_Mercedes_Benz_Sprinter_City_45s_in_Ashford regarding the introduction of a fleet of 17 seater minibuses in Ashford.

30 Mercedes-Benz Sprinter City 45s in Ashford
Stagecoach set industry tongues wagging last year when it ordered 30 minibuses from EvoBus (UK). They entered service on Sunday and the results are being watched very closely by management

Stagecoach South East began a brave new venture on Sunday (12 February) with the long-awaited launch of 30 Mercedes-Benz Sprinter City 45 minibuses in Ashford.

The Sprinters – which seat 17 and carry a further five standees, along with having room for one wheelchair user in a low-floor section – represent what the group calls a radical experiment.

They replace larger buses and bring with them a much higher frequency.

I'm sure it's not just me who wonders if this is a case of trying out something that previously occurred in the mind 1980s, first in Exeter, when Harry Blundred introduced a fleet of minibuses running at high frequency in the city. It led to the 'minibus revolution', where all over the country, there were Ford Transits, Freight Rover Sherpas, Ivecos and Mercedes Benz minibuses with 16-25 seats running bus services every few minutes in towns and cities.

I guess that these new vehicles will be a lot more comfier than the 'bread vans' we had in the 1980s!

 

[overthewater]

Your mist the bus on this one

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=140931

 

[radamfi]

Your mist the bus on this one

That's because the bus didn't have double glazing.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I've just seen a news story at http://www.route-one.net/articles/Operators/30_Mercedes_Benz_Sprinter_City_45s_in_Ashford regarding the introduction of a fleet of 17 seater minibuses in Ashford.



I'm sure it's not just me who wonders if this is a case of trying out something that previously occurred in the mind 1980s, first in Exeter, when Harry Blundred introduced a fleet of minibuses running at high frequency in the city. It led to the 'minibus revolution', where all over the country, there were Ford Transits, Freight Rover Sherpas, Ivecos and Mercedes Benz minibuses with 16-25 seats running bus services every few minutes in towns and cities.

I guess that these new vehicles will be a lot more comfier than the 'bread vans' we had in the 1980s!

I don't think that we will see a mass widespread re-introduction such as we saw in the mid 1980's. That was a response to a unique set of circumstances.. and in this day of minimum wage operators can't pay peanuts to the minibus drivers as they did at the height of the minibus "revolution" Remember that part of the business plan of many minibus schemes was to pay the drivers a lot less than their "big bus" counterparts (sometimes up to 50% less)

Having said that, the industry has always, from the earliest days, found a niche for a bus of 16-20 seats (even LT), and I would imagine that this new scheme is just another of those niches

 

[Bletchleyite]

They probably *could* get away with paying a bit less if they had D1 licenced minibus drivers. However, they have chosen not to do so by allowing standees on the buses, requiring a full D because they carry more than 16 passengers.

 

[Busaholic]

In this particular case Stagecoach have cited the problem of negotiating parked cars on the main estate served as being, if not the main reason, a contributory one for the introduction of minibuses.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

They probably *could* get away with paying a bit less if they had D1 licenced minibus drivers. However, they have chosen not to do so by allowing standees on the buses, requiring a full D because they carry more than 16 passengers.

yes... but the difference in pay rates can never be as extreme as they were in the past due to NMW... to show how minibuses wreck the economics of an operation... if a driver is paid £10/hr to drive a 75 seat DD that equates to 13.3p/potential customer per hr driving a 40 seat SD it is 25p for a driver on NMW driving a 16 seat minibus it's 45p with NMW now in place the economics jus do not stack up anymore.

 

[Stan Drews]

They probably *could* get away with paying a bit less if they had D1 licenced minibus drivers. However, they have chosen not to do so by allowing standees on the buses, requiring a full D because they carry more than 16 passengers.

They're 17 seaters anyway. PCV/PSVs have never counted the drivers seat when seating capacities are being described.

 

[the101]

They probably *could* get away with paying a bit less if they had D1 licenced minibus drivers. However, they have chosen not to do so by allowing standees on the buses, requiring a full D because they carry more than 16 passengers.

Standees have nothing to do with it. They have 17 passenger seats, as has already been said twice at least in other threads.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Standees have nothing to do with it. They have 17 passenger seats, as has already been said twice at least in other threads.

They do, as does the additional one passenger seat. Remove that and disallow standees, and they would be D1.

The point is that Stagey have actively chosen not to make them D1.

 

[robertclark125]

Stagecoach will give this time, and learn lessons from it, even if it's a success. One thing to mention, it may be possible that they could also end up helping out the railways here, as commuters to London may elect to use the high frequency bus to the station, and get the train to their next destination.

 

[the101]

They do, as does the additional one passenger seat. Remove that and disallow standees, and they would be D1.

The point is that Stagey have actively chosen not to make them D1.

Oh, right. So on what basis are they type approved, then? Because if it is Whole Vehicle Type Approval, which for a bus built at the volumes that the Sprinter City 45 is I would be very surprised if it was not, it simply is not as simple as removing seats as and when you may feel like.

 

[the101]

Stagecoach will give this time, and learn lessons from it, even if it's a success. One thing to mention, it may be possible that they could also end up helping out the railways here, as commuters to London may elect to use the high frequency bus to the station, and get the train to their next destination.

I believe that the convenience factor for the railway station is one of the key parts of this concept.

 

[ECML180]

yes... but the difference in pay rates can never be as extreme as they were in the past due to NMW... to show how minibuses wreck the economics of an operation... if a driver is paid £10/hr to drive a 75 seat DD that equates to 13.3p/potential customer per hr driving a 40 seat SD it is 25p for a driver on NMW driving a 16 seat minibus it's 45p with NMW now in place the economics jus do not stack up anymore.

I agree wholeheartedly with this - however don't neglect the per mile fuel savings made when you can use van derived vehicles. How this will stack up against the increase in frequency I can't say.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I agree wholeheartedly with this - however don't neglect the per mile fuel savings made when you can use van derived vehicles. How this will stack up against the increase in frequency I can't say.

IIRC one of the main problems found with using van derived minibuses in the 80's was that any fuel savings were soon eaten up with higher costs of clutch replacement, brake replacement, engine replacement etc due to the vehicles being punished way beyond their designed use....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

IIRC one of the main problems found with using van derived minibuses in the 80's was that any fuel savings were soon eaten up with higher costs of clutch replacement, brake replacement, engine replacement etc due to the vehicles being punished way beyond their designed use....

Initially, that was the case but the retrofitting of retarders helped markedly esp with brakes. Not certain which minis you mean but my fathers depot had Merc 608s and in terms of engines, they were bomb proof.

In some ways, depended which model was chosen. Mercedes and Transits were excellent but Sherpas and Dodges were dogs. Iveco were somewhere in between.

 

[jammy36]

IIRC one of the main problems found with using van derived minibuses in the 80's was that any fuel savings were soon eaten up with higher costs of clutch replacement, brake replacement, engine replacement etc due to the vehicles being punished way beyond their designed use....

However in this instance Stagecoach have entered into a full ?5 year repair and maintenance contract, meaning Mercedes-Benz will be liable for such issues.

I understand the fuel savings are significant, with the new minibuses being up to 17mpg better than some of the vehicles they'll be replacing.

The project is also about growing passenger numbers in order to offset additional drivers costs. One of the key elements being it's turn up and go nature, links to the station for commuters and the fact it will serve some new housing estate still under construction. The idea being that the new residents of the estate will get used to using the bus from the word go, so that bus travel will become part of their ingrained travel pattern.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Initially, that was the case but the retrofitting of retarders helped markedly esp with brakes. Not certain which minis you mean but my fathers depot had Merc 608s and in terms of engines, they were bomb proof.

In some ways, depended which model was chosen. Mercedes and Transits were excellent but Sherpas and Dodges were dogs. Iveco were somewhere in between.

lol well I remember a fleet of sherpas in my home town... on the first day of service a number had to be taken off the road cos the rear emergency exits kept flying open....

as for the mercs... yes it does seem that the networks that used them seemed to be the most successful... I started my driving career on the 608s and actually found them a very pleasant vehicle to drive... though at our depot we tended to have a high accident rate with them... only minor... due to one our termini being on a slight hill... if anyone remembers the "umbrella handle" handbrakes on these you'll understand why it was a regular thing to fill out an accident report during your break lol

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

lol well I remember a fleet of sherpas in my home town... on the first day of service a number had to be taken off the road cos the rear emergency exits kept flying open....

as for the mercs... yes it does seem that the networks that used them seemed to be the most successful... I started my driving career on the 608s and actually found them a very pleasant vehicle to drive... though at our depot we tended to have a high accident rate with them... only minor... due to one our termini being on a slight hill... if anyone remembers the "umbrella handle" handbrakes on these you'll understand why it was a regular thing to fill out an accident report during your break lol

Indeed, I do remember the handbrake. Was it a pull up out of the floor and twist affair?

I seem to recall firms (Lincolnshire Road Car?) replacing Sherpa engines and drivetrain with Transit ones as they were more durable.

Back on topic, this is a really interesting experiment by Stagecoach and something we'll all be keen to see the results of

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

However in this instance Stagecoach have entered into a full ?5 year repair and maintenance contract, meaning Mercedes-Benz will be liable for such issues.

somehow I think mercedes will get their fingers burnt with that unless they've learned the lessons of previous intensive minibus operation...

I understand the fuel savings are significant, with the new minibuses being up to 17mpg better than some of the vehicles they'll be replacing.

QUOTED mpg might be 17mpg better.. but I doubt that the figure will be anywhere near that... not with intensive stop/ start... intensive acceleration/ deceleration... long periods of idling... and drivers pushing hard to keep to a tight timetable

The project is also about growing passenger numbers in order to offset additional drivers costs. One of the key elements being it's turn up and go nature, links to the station for commuters and the fact it will serve some new housing estate still under construction. The idea being that the new residents of the estate will get used to using the bus from the word go, so that bus travel will become part of their ingrained travel pattern.

If you read my earlier post about driver cost per passenger you will see that they will have to increase passenger numbers by 1/3 to 1/2... which is blatently impossible on a vehicle less than half the capacity of a normal SD... unless of course current levels of usage are approx 8 passengers/journey.... and then that would need investigating as to how the company has been keepng those services going without cross subsidy which is illegal!