Standedge tunnel proposed re-openings.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There have been discussions into re-opening the first two tunnels that were built as part of the scheme to give better trans-Pennine access between Manchester and Leeds and to allow express trains to pass slower services.

How long would this process take considering the examination of the tunnels structural status.

How long would it take for the track bed refurbishments that would be needed.

How long would the trackwork take to be laid from existing lines to these tunnels?.

 

[Ploughman]

I think the original proposal was to reopen only one of the bores, the one nearest the existing tracks.
To enable a stopping service to get to the west end of the tunnel whilst a TPE service passes on the main. Currently the stopper has to wait at Marsden for the TPE to clear the tunnel before entering the tunnel.

Actual trackwork through the tunnel will be difficult due to restricted nature of the single line bore and probable relocation of S+T cabling. But its nothing that has not been done before just a bit more time consuming working sleepers in and dragging rail in.

Excavation of existing ballast will be required to maintain headroom however it may be possible to excavate more than 2 sites within the tunnel at a time by making use of the other bore and the cross chamber at the midpoint.

Connection at the Marsden end would need a new turnout which would be feasible in a weekend.
At the Diggle end things may be a bit more difficult.
May need a new deck for the culvert / stream at the west end of the tunnel.
Excavation work again for possibly 300m and a new connection.
Would the bus turnround require altering?

All the trackwork except for the Turnouts and final connecting up could all be done midweek days with green zone established.

This is assuming that just the one bore is reopened and no other complications such as installing crossovers on the existing mains.

 

[trickyvegas]

If they did go ahead, I wonder if they'd make use of the canal again?

 

[Ploughman]

Maybe as a means of removing the spoil.
The cross passage links between the old and new bores bridge the canal.

 

[trickyvegas]

Maybe as a means of removing the spoil.
The cross passage links between the old and new bores bridge the canal.

You can still clearly still see plenty of the original spoil if you take walk over top along the old turnpike route.

 

[The Snap]

What is the likelihood of this actually happening? How far advanced are discussions on the project?

 

[Nym]

Very low down, I think NR may be in the process of properly surveying the tunnels

 

[PinzaC55]

Apparently one of the tunnels ( I think it is the one they want to use) has suffered so badly from subsidence that it has a steel girder frame inside to prevent the walls spreading any more. Thus they have to get the girders out and rebuild the walls.

 

[lancastrian]

Apparently one of the tunnels ( I think it is the one they want to use) has suffered so badly from subsidence that it has a steel girder frame inside to prevent the walls spreading any more. Thus they have to get the girders out and rebuild the walls.

If this is the case, I am wondering why they are going to all the trouble of reopening one or two single track tunnels when there is a much easier option available, and possibly a cheaper one as well. While I make no clain to having any degrees, I like to think I have a basic common sense.

To me the answer is very simple. The line from Huddersfield to Diggle, through all three Standedge Tunnels was four track. SO what should be considered is:-

1. Reinstate four tracks from Huddersfield through to Marsden. This will be easier than renovating two single track tunnels to a capacity, and hieght to take potential electrification.

2. The stations at Slaithwaite and Marsden can have four platforms for ease of use.

3. At Diggle there also used to be four tracks for a distance through the station until where the Micklehurst line diverged. This space could be used to put in two loops, for both freight and if the loops have platforms on them Diggle station could be reopened.

It often seems to me that Network Rail seem to overlook the old assests (from when we had real railways) when they are looking to increase capacity.

 

[Nym]

One does wonder somtimes about the reopening of the Micklehurst line...

 

[lancastrian]

One does wonder somtimes about the reopening of the Micklehurst line...

Not forgetting the Oldham line through Lees from Greenfield. With the Metrolink being sent through the centre of Oldham, the old line through Mumps & Werneth down to Middleton Junction could be reopened. This would not only give Oldham a through service between Manchester & Leeds, but would be a useful diversionary route.

Sadly, dreaming of a practical, common sense approach to our railway system.

Sighs deeply.

 

[Nym]

Not forgetting the Oldham line through Lees from Greenfield. With the Metrolink being sent through the centre of Oldham, the old line through Mumps & Werneth down to Middleton Junction could be reopened. This would not only give Oldham a through service between Manchester & Leeds, but would be a useful diversionary route.

Sadly, dreaming of a practical, common sense approach to our railway system.

Sighs deeply.

Witch way to Oldham though? Pull off the Calder Valley route and call at mumps then onto Greenfeild?

Might be an idea, giving Oldham a fast route to Manchester again, but most of the trains would proberbly terminate at Greenfield in the old bay. (Then it may aswell be Metrolink)

Or just extend the Metrolink to Greenfield and terminate there?

 

[lancastrian]

Witch way to Oldham though? Pull off the Calder Valley route and call at mumps then onto Greenfeild?

Might be an idea, giving Oldham a fast route to Manchester again, but most of the trains would proberbly terminate at Greenfield in the old bay. (Then it may aswell be Metrolink)

Or just extend the Metrolink to Greenfield and terminate there?

Yes off the Calder Valley Line at Middleton Junction, up through Werneth & Mumps, then through Lees, Grotton & Grasscroft and into Greenfield. My idea was for it to be a heavyrail line, possibly electrified when the TransPennine route is done, giving Oldham a fast route to Manchester. But as I know that it is unlikely to happen, then a Metrolink extension from Mumps to Greenfield would be acceptable.

Reopening the Oldham to Greenfield line would certainly benefit passengers from Oldham traveling over the pennines to Yorkshire & the North East. Even if it was Metrolink, as it would save the need to travel the wrong way into Manchester first, or to go to Rochdale, and use the slower Calder Valley route.

 

[umontu]

Apparently one of the tunnels ( I think it is the one they want to use) has suffered so badly from subsidence that it has a steel girder frame inside to prevent the walls spreading any more. Thus they have to get the girders out and rebuild the walls.

This is true, I have seen pictures of it online, can't remember where. dramatically reduces the width of the tunnel, a transit van fits snugly through.

I believe it's the oldest tunnel however it was over a year a go when I read all this info.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One does wonder somtimes about the reopening of the Micklehurst line...

I'll give you that...you can come up with some obscure ones

Here goes:-
Staley and Millbrook....................Closed 1909
Micklehurst................................Closed 1907
Friezland...................................Closed 1917
Uppermill...................................Closed 1917
then not fogetting
Diggle.......................................Closed 1968 (It had 4 platform faces)

The first four were closed even before I was born (...and Welshman)

I think the track bed might be in somewhat of a difficult situation to evaluate at the present time. As you approach Diggle from the Uppermill direction, you can still see the earthworks for this line, from the train, on the right hand side.

 

[Nym]

Obscure, yes, Ilogical, I'm yet to have somone say one of my ideas is utterly stupid with a justified argument...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Obscure, yes, Ilogical, I'm yet to have somone say one of my ideas is utterly stupid with a justified argument...

Now then, NO-ONE said your idea was stupid. The Micklehust loop was used extensively for heavy freight traffic between the two world wars and must have earned the costs of its construction easily during its working life.

I even went to the trouble of giving a list of the passenger stations that used to be on that line and the dates of their closure. Another fact is that the Micklehurst station stationmaster's house, together with a small station building was turned into a private residence and was still there when I passed it a few years ago. I think that it was constructed from Accrington brick.

The only main structural infrastructure problem that would be encountered, on the reinstatement of this line, occured in 1975. The sixteen arch blue engineering brick viaduct, sitated in the area that is east of Greenfield station was demolished. The cost of reinstating this in today's terms would be high.

If you want to get a feeling for what this area used to be like, watch the Oldham Tinkers, on YouTube, sing "The last train to Dobcross has gone", which is the poem by Stanley Accrington which had music added.

 

[Nym]

If 4 track through Sandledge Tunnels was re-opened, this loop would have a real chance of re-opening though, but it would proberbly be cheaper to re-open the Woodhead Route.

Need to look into how it would route into Leeds at some point, and if it would.

Manchester - Dinting - Penistone - Sheffeild / Leeds via Barnsley?

What kinda timings would that be looking at if you could get upto a clean ton from Dinting to Penistone and onto Leeds?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If 4 track through Sandledge Tunnels was re-opened, this loop would have a real chance of re-opening though, but it would proberbly be cheaper to re-open the Woodhead Route.

Need to look into how it would route into Leeds at some point, and if it would.

Manchester - Dinting - Penistone - Sheffeild / Leeds via Barnsley?

What kinda timings would that be looking at if you could get upto a clean ton from Dinting to Penistone and onto Leeds?

If you consider the age of the refurbished Woodhead tunnel as it was at the time of closure, compared to EITHER of the two bores of the Standedge tunnel, which were the first two of the three tunnel bores constructed, you will obviously find that the Woodhead tunnel to be in a far better condition of structural stabiity. The steelwork bracings in the Standedge tunnel have already been reported earlier in this thread together with the need for re-lining of the wall structure.

I cannot help you with your request for timings of journeys, but I hope that the comparison between those two tunnel structures would be of help to you with your deliberations on this matter at hand.

 

[Nym]

Chances are that Sandledge is going to need to stay as two track tunnels from the sounds of it, unless they completly re-line the other two, not impossible, but a good years works.

If they where looking to re-open the two disused bores for the amount it would cost to re-line them (we're talking £000,000s) to gain the benifit from re-opening these tunnels there would be a need to have 4 track for a much more significant length of the route.

Al least the all the way from Diggle to Huddersfeild, with it in mind to extend the 4 track to Stalybridge or Victoria.

But if they are to re-open the tunnels, and have a decent amount of capacity they will both need re-lining so that they will last another 100 years. One question would be what route to use as the fast if the 2nd Stalybridge - Diggle route re-instated, although if there was 4 track all the way there would be some limiting junctions if they where not grade seperated.

However, if there where passing loops in the right places and some 4 track, that could well be enough to implement 8tph over the whole route, possibly even 10tph.

4 track and loops at these locations should be enough for 8tph to Huddersfeild

Stalybridge: Fast though lines, 4 through platforms, 2 facing vic and 2 guide bridge.

Marsden - Huddersfeild

Possibly, Diggle - Marsden

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think that if they were successful in opening all the bores of the Standedge tunnel, allowing paths for both express and for stopping trains to be fully established, then Diggle station should be considered for re-opening for use on the stopping trains timetables.

This was a station only closed in 1968 and had 4 platform faces. The station is the only one after Greenfield and it would cover a sizeable catchment area for services to Manchester and to Huddersfield. I am mindful of a park and ride station with a sizeable car park and to remove the existing bus turning circle and re-site this in the area of the station. I am thinking of such a similar station to base the plans for this on as being the one at Lostock Parkway. I would make the infrastructure of the station somewhat better than of the two stations on the other side of the tunnel at Marsden and Slaithwaite.

 

[Ploughman]

During the 80s when the line was dequadrified, the opportunity was taken to realign the curves for higher speed running, 90 as against previous 60 I think, Would this be regarded as a retrograde move by some?
It is possible to drive along the full length of the trackbed between Hillhouse and Marsden alongside the track, as I have done this many times but not in one continuous journey as the track sweeps from one side of the formation to the other.

 

[185]

A GMPTE manager I used to work for raised the issue in 1997 of Diggle Station reopening several times, only to be laughed off by some very senior idiots. It's long overdue, and would be very successful.

I would also agree that repopening the 6km (2km west+4km east) Greenfield-Oldham-Middleton Jn line to heavy rail would be a good move when GMPTE start panicking and finally realise Metrolink can't cope with their poxy little trams on the Oldham loop service.

 

[Nym]

I would also agree that repopening the 6km (2km west+4km east) Greenfield-Oldham-Middleton Jn line to heavy rail would be a good move when GMPTE start panicking and finally realise Metrolink can't cope with their poxy little trams on the Oldham loop service.

They havn't realised for any of the other routes yet...

Eg, Alt'ham, Bury.

And no matter how many times I explain how its possible to convert the Alt'ham metrolink line back to heavy rail, no-one actually seems to understand what I'm typing and says it's impossible.

All it would need would be a bridge over Bridgewater Way and the CLC lines, junctioned into the metrolink line at Panoma, and to make space for an interchange station at Cornbrook, if it's even needed, a new bridge over the quays with some new platforms for the Metrolink so that where the Metrolink currently is at Cornbrook would be converted to Heavy Rail, would allow a few nice things to happen...

Alt'ham - Manchester currently 10 trams per hour, could become 10 TRAINS per hour, 3, 4, 6 or 8 carrage 319s or 323s.

Alt'ham would once again have express services into Manchester, with the possible addition of some 4 track sections on the route, this could see anything up to 16tph peak into Manchester from Alt'ham

Mid Cheshire Line, guess what, it takes 10mins less to get into Manchester again from the Mid Cheshire Line. And we can up the amount of tph on the route. These would form some of the express diagrams.

Oh and theres another route, showing massive growth, about to loose a service or two, yeah, you guessed it. The Cheshire Lines Comitee route through Warrington Central. This can keep the current 2tph express thats come through Piccadilly, both from Stockport, either Buxton or the Hope Valley. And to add into the mix, have an extra 2 tph all stations and 2tph semi fasts terminating in Manchester.

Now, lets see where else would see an improvement...

MediaCity UK would be able to have significantly more trams

East Didsbury and the Airport the same

There would be a nice diversionary route available from Crewe to Manchester

Crewe - Sandbatch - Middlewitch - Greenbank - Alt'ham - Manchester.

Theres going to be a lot of work going on at Piccadilly soon, that could come in handy...

Oh, it would also free up (indirectly) paths at Piccadilly aswell, fright could enter Manchester for Trafford Park via Alt'ham, avoiding Manchester, reverse just east of cornbrook and then be in Trafford Park, granted it would be a bit of a faf, but it it gets desprate, a siding could be provided for it to happen.

Not to mention aswell all them stoppers currently terminating at Oxford Road wouldn't need to any more, so that platform could even be closed to alow Platforms 1 and 4 to be extended westwards to be able to fit 8 car units into Oxford Road, Wow, this solves a lot of problems doesn't it?

And where is it all these new trains would terminate, oh in a rather old peice of land with 6 platforms available of course, plenty for a sustained 16tph with two or three kinds of stock...

OK Rant over...

Middleton Jcn - Oldham - Greenfield would be very helpful indeed,

Oh and as a PS, while I'm on the topic of service improvments for Warrington, how about 2tph

Manchester - (Sale / Stockport) - Lymm - Warrington - Liverpool S Parkway - Liverpool L St.

 

[9K43]

All the 4 tunnels are connected.
I have walked through the double track bore on a few occasions when looking for my ballast train.
In the 2 redundant bores, all the ballast has be removed, and in the middle of the tunnels is a high vaulted construction which links the tunnels together.
We have in the past taken a Ford Transit from Marsden through to Diggle with traincrew relief.
Some 30 years ago it was suggested that one of the single lines bores would come back, but talk is cheap on the railway.
This just shows how foolish BR were when they chopped route whole sale , only to bring them back to use after 40/50 years has gone by.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

During the 80s when the line was dequadrified, the opportunity was taken to realign the curves for higher speed running, 90 as against previous 60 I think, Would this be regarded as a retrograde move by some?
It is possible to drive along the full length of the trackbed between Hillhouse and Marsden alongside the track, as I have done this many times but not in one continuous journey as the track sweeps from one side of the formation to the other.

I will hold my hat up to this destruction as Healey Mills men had quite a lot of
Sat/Sundays on this line , including jetting the drains in Standage tunnel.
We dropped thousands of tons of ballast between Marsden and Springwood.
Some of the stone was brought in by road in the early 1980's.

 

[furryfeet]

Two points:-

a) I thought that the original Railtrack plan was to re-instate track though BOTH disused bores, with a gauge and speed restriction in the bore with the metal arch in it ( 1871 bore ?) so that would always be at least two tracks open for traffic and at least one track that would be cleared for W10 gauge ( I think at the moment, the 1894 bore can only take 8ft 6inch containers on standard wagons )

b) the four tracking would only be in the tunnels and also at Heaton Lodge.

Is this still the case with the latest thinking ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Two points:-

a) I thought that the original Railtrack plan was to re-instate track though BOTH disused bores, with a gauge and speed restriction in the bore with the metal arch in it ( 1871 bore ?) so that would always be at least two tracks open for traffic and at least one track that would be cleared for W10 gauge ( I think at the moment, the 1894 bore can only take 8ft 6inch containers on standard wagons )

b) the four tracking would only be in the tunnels and also at Heaton Lodge.

Is this still the case with the latest thinking ?

With regard to a) in your posting, I am glad that someone besides me thought that BOTH the bores (the first two to be constructed)..NOT ONE ..were in the original Railtrack plan. That is why I wrote it so when I first posted this as a new thread. Thank you.

 

[Ploughman]

In the 2 redundant bores, all the ballast has be removed, and in the middle of the tunnels is a high vaulted construction which links the tunnels together.
We have in the past taken a Ford Transit from Marsden through to Diggle with traincrew relief.

Around 2000 after rerailing work had taken place at Marsden and also tunnel work, there was a considerable amount of scrap rail lying around between the station and the tunnel.
We could not access scrap lorries from Marsden due to the tight access but instead drove Artic tippers through the tunnel to load up and return out through Diggle. All done midweek days, T2 possession only between trains and the contractor paid for the scrap which he loaded himself. All we had to provide was manpower to impose the T2 and escort out through the cutting at Diggle.

 

[Welshman]

During the 80s when the line was dequadrified, the opportunity was taken to realign the curves for higher speed running, 90 as against previous 60 I think, Would this be regarded as a retrograde move by some?
It is possible to drive along the full length of the trackbed between Hillhouse and Marsden alongside the track, as I have done this many times but not in one continuous journey as the track sweeps from one side of the formation to the other.

I remember a lineside photograph where the fast lines were down to 55mph at some point - possibly between Slaithwaite and Marsden.

Is it really possible now to drive through the northernmost Huddersfield tunnel?

 

[lancastrian]

During the 80s when the line was dequadrified, the opportunity was taken to realign the curves for higher speed running, 90 as against previous 60 I think, Would this be regarded as a retrograde move by some?
It is possible to drive along the full length of the trackbed between Hillhouse and Marsden alongside the track, as I have done this many times but not in one continuous journey as the track sweeps from one side of the formation to the other.

Surely it is not beyond the ability of today's engineers to aline all four tracks for the maximum speed. The number of times that I have travelled the Standedge route and been held up due to stopping services blocking the line simply because BR was to concerned about stripping out assests, rather than improve them. If it was four tracked then expresses and stopping trains could not get in each others ways, as they do now.

And while I am about it, which daft idiot came up with the idea, that two/three car trains would be an improvement upon the much longer loco hauled trains that used to run on this route. For heavens sake, even the Trans Penine DMU sets were originally five/six car sets. It just shows how blinkered that DaFT to let the Trans Penine & Northern francises, with a status quo setting. They didn't expect any more people to start using the trains, how daft can you get. All the more reason why politicans should not be allowed to have anything to do with Rail Transport, as they and the supposed civil servants (masters) have no concept of what is needed on our Rail System.