Stopper allowed out first

[Old Yard Dog]

The 1240 WMT Shrewsbury to Birmingham NS was allowed out before the delayed 1234 Holyhead to Birmingham International even though the latter could easily have got away at 1242. This is causing big consequential delays to the latter with missed connections and it is now terminating at New Street. Who prioritised the stopper and why?

 

[nw1]

Not sure but it reminds me of an occasion (a while back now; late 90s or early 00s?) when a somewhat-late-running fast from Havant - not sure if it was an ex-Victoria or a diverted Waterloo or XC service - was scheduled behind a Portsmouth-Southampton all stations and consequently lost a lot of time. IIRC they could have held the stopper in the western part of the Farlington Triangle for a couple of minutes to let the fast ahead.

This was perhaps around 8 or 9pm so the lines were not unduly congested, and in any case I seem to remember the pattern at this time was that the stopper left Portsmouth around xx35 or so, and the next Portsmouth-Fareham wasn't until around xx55 (towards Eastleigh).

 

[ExpressTrain]

The stopper only has a 5 minute turn around at New Street so getting that out late from Shrewsbury could have an impact on its return

 

[Efini92]

The 1240 WMT Shrewsbury to Birmingham NS was allowed out before the delayed 1234 Holyhead to Birmingham International even though the latter could easily have got away at 1242. This is causing big consequential delays to the latter with missed connections and it is now terminating at New Street. Who prioritised the stopper and why?

Thank one of the West Midlands MP’s for that. The agreement is they get priority.

 

[BrianW]

Thank one of the West Midlands MP’s for that. The agreement is they get priority.

Maximising utilisation reduces scope for recovering from delays; political 'interference' and 'cowtowing' to that interference also distorts services.
Keeping (some) services to time also reduces delays and thus delay repay payments. I thinkmsignallers have enough on their plate without weighing up potential financial effects- their job is to help run a safe and efficient service, not to 'carry the can'- why was the Holyhead train running late?

 

[Efini92]

Maximising utilisation reduces scope for recovering from delays; political 'interference' and 'cowtowing' to that interference also distorts services.
Keeping (some) services to time also reduces delays and thus delay repay payments. I thinkmsignallers have enough on their plate without weighing up potential financial effects- their job is to help run a safe and efficient service, not to 'carry the can'- why was the Holyhead train running late?

I don’t think that Holyhead train ever runs to time.

 

[jawr256]

The TfW service lost 11 minutes following the stopper between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton, but was then held at Wolverhampton for 23mins for some reason . So can we really blame its curtailment at Birmingham New Street on following the stopper?
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P64359/2024-04-19/detailed

 

[ExpressTrain]

It appears to have been on time all the way to Gobowen, getting held outside Shrewsbury for two carriages to join to from the late running 11:08 Birmingham International to Holyhead. That train was delayed by a WMR Walsall - Wolves stopper…

 

[louis97]

The TfW service lost 11 minutes following the stopper between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton, but was then held at Wolverhampton for 23mins for some reason . So can we really blame its curtailment at Birmingham New Street on following the stopper?
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P64359/2024-04-19/detailed

Seems it was specifically held back, perhaps to avoid blocking a platform at New Street, but that is pure speculation.

It appears to have been on time all the way to Gobowen, getting held outside Shrewsbury for two carriages to join to from the late running 11:08 Birmingham International to Holyhead. That train was delayed by a WMR Walsall - Wolves stopper…

Ironically it was held up waiting for its attaching portion which seemed to be delayed due to a delay on the inward working of the stopper, due to a fire alarm apparently.

 

[Starmill]

Very little that you could do to avoid this unfortunately. However it would have been a lot more customer-friendly to offer the advice to any intending passengers to use the WMR service, and pass their tickets for it. I suspect that absolutely did not happen?

 

[Falcon1200]

The 1240 WMT Shrewsbury to Birmingham NS was allowed out before the delayed 1234 Holyhead to Birmingham International even though the latter could easily have got away at 1242. T

Perhaps the Holyhead train, booked an attachment at Shrewsbury, was not expected to be ready to depart quite so quickly?

However it would have been a lot more customer-friendly to offer the advice to any intending passengers to use the WMR service, and pass their tickets for it.

Might that have not just caused more delay, waiting for passengers intending to join, or maybe already on, the Holyhead train, transferring across?

Regulating when trains are running out of course is an inexact science, and usually whatever is done, someone is unhappy!

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Very little that you could do to avoid this unfortunately. However it would have been a lot more customer-friendly to offer the advice to any intending passengers to use the WMR service, and pass their tickets for it. I suspect that absolutely did not happen?

Don’t know as I joined the TfW train at Chester. But in a joined up railway, letting the TFW train go first would have inconvenienced far few passengers. But some jobsworth decided otherwise, perhaps because he lacked the authority to see the bigger picture.

I have had serious problems in the past trying to get to Ferriby when the stopping train was allowed to leave Brough ahead of a late TPE.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

I've seen this sort of thing at Cambridge so many times. A late running xc to Stansted airport gets to Cambridge (around 10 late) just as the Liverpool street stopper is about to leave and the xc usually gets to like 20 mins or more late by the airport

 

[30907]

1242 was the R/T departure for the 1130 Manchester-Carmarthen. so the Holyhead couldn't have got away then anyway.

 

[irish_rail]

This kind of thing happens all the time on the Western. I've lost count of the amount of times I've been on a westbound fast, held at Fairwood Junction (Westbury), whilst the late running stopper is allowed to trickle out in front of us. I think it's a general unwillingness for signallers to make proactive decisions, partly, because I believe their hands are tied and they would need to get authority to do pretty much anything contrary to the easy option.

 

[Peter0124]

It's like when the Cathcart Circle diverts get stuck behind a Newton - Glasgow Central via Mount Florida stopper. I think they try to hold the Newton terminator at Kirkhill until they've passed the Avanti or Sleeper through.

 

[ikcdab]

This kind of thing happens all the time on the Western. I've lost count of the amount of times I've been on a westbound fast, held at Fairwood Junction (Westbury), whilst the late running stopper is allowed to trickle out in front of us. I think it's a general unwillingness for signallers to make proactive decisions, partly, because I believe their hands are tied and they would need to get authority to do pretty much anything contrary to the easy option.

I guess when the stopper is tucked into Frome, then the fast can overtake it then. The fast should then make up time by the time it gets to Cogload. Both trains end up reasonably on time.

 

[irish_rail]

I guess when the stopper is tucked into Frome, then the fast can overtake it then. The fast should then make up time by the time it gets to Cogload. Both trains end up reasonably on time.

No you misunderstand me. The fast does not overtake the stopper at all, as technically it is pathed behind it. The trouble is, the stoppers xx35 off Paddington very very rarely run to time, and if even about 2 minutes late get caught up by the following xx03 fast. The fast then just follows it with associated delays. Its something that desperately needs sorting, something as simple as retiming the B and H stoppers to leave 10 to 15 minutes earlier would be absolutely transformational to GWR punctuality, yet I haven't heard anything about changing the timings even being considered.

 

[ikcdab]

No you misunderstand me. The fast does not overtake the stopper at all, as technically it is pathed behind it. The trouble is, the stoppers xx35 off Paddington very very rarely run to time, and if even about 2 minutes late get caught up by the following xx03 fast. The fast then just follows it with associated delays. Its something that desperately needs sorting, something as simple as retiming the B and H stoppers to leave 10 to 15 minutes earlier would be absolutely transformational to GWR punctuality, yet I haven't heard anything about changing the timings even being considered.

Ah ok. I see now. By stopper, I thought you meant the Bristol to Weymouth train.

 

[800001]

Don’t know as I joined the TfW train at Chester. But in a joined up railway, letting the TFW train go first would have inconvenienced far few passengers. But some jobsworth decided otherwise, perhaps because he lacked the authority to see the bigger picture.

I have had serious problems in the past trying to get to Ferriby when the stopping train was allowed to leave Brough ahead of a late TPE.

very presumptious to say the ‘jobsworth’ as you call them is a he!

I am sure they are doing what they are told to do, and following process, and also looking at the bigger picture, ie as others have mentioned the turn around at New Street if the stopping service.

 

[Wolfie]

very presumptious to say the ‘jobsworth’ as you call them is a he!

I am sure they are doing what they are told to do, and following process, and also looking at the bigger picture, ie as others have mentioned the turn around at New Street if the stopping service.

Particularly from someone primarily looking at things on the basis of self-interest and not knowing what factors informed the decision made.

 

[dk1]

Used to get this all the time at Shenfield where the up Norwich fast was held back for the late running up Southend that stopped at Romford & Stratford. Reason given was that the Southend was logged as on time if it arrived within 5 mins of timetable whereas the Norwich was on time if 10 late so this way both would achieve PPM. Went on for years and years like that and just expected restrictive aspects on approach.

 

[Deepgreen]

I guess when the stopper is tucked into Frome, then the fast can overtake it then. The fast should then make up time by the time it gets to Cogload. Both trains end up reasonably on time.

The days when trains could "make up time" are long gone. Speed is strictly controlled so any late running pretty much stay that way.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

My GatEx the other day left Brighton 9 minutes late and arrived at Gatwick 3 minutes early because we ran around a failed Thameslink at Preston Park. Trains very much can make up time.

 

[louis97]

My GatEx the other day left Brighton 9 minutes late and arrived at Gatwick 3 minutes early because we ran around a failed Thameslink at Preston Park. Trains very much can make up time.

Trains with sufficient allowances (extra time on top of the running times) in will do, as is likely in your case. Services running with traction matching the running times, and running booked route, without any allowance won't make up significant amounts of time.

 

[DanNCL]

Happens all the time on the Durham Coast heading north. If the xx30 Northern service at Sunderland is more than 2 or 3 minutes late, the following Metro goes ahead of it and the Northern service accumulates an extra 8-10 minutes of delay between Sunderland and Heworth.

Previously that was understandable as the Metro services had to slot into a 20tph timetable from Heworth. Now that timetable is only 10tph, and the Metro services have a 10 minute turnaround at Newcastle Airport so it wouldn’t be an issue to hold the Metro up by a few minutes now.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Having worked many services to Birmingham from Shrewsbury for TFW, it is something that happens when TFW are running late.
The platform staff are there are very good and in direct contact with the Severn bridge junction signaller via radio.
I have seen the WMT get held a ridiculous amount of time as it was expected the TFW would only cause WMT a few mins delay, and I’ve seen WMT leave on time when TFW are expected to be heavily delayed but end up ready just as the WMT train leaves.

To add, once the route is set by the signaller, taking it back isn’t as simple as taking it away. They have to get speak with the driver and pretty much get their permission to do so.

 

[plymothian]

This kind of thing happens all the time on the Western. I've lost count of the amount of times I've been on a westbound fast, held at Fairwood Junction (Westbury), whilst the late running stopper is allowed to trickle out in front of us. I think it's a general unwillingness for signallers to make proactive decisions, partly, because I believe their hands are tied and they would need to get authority to do pretty much anything contrary to the easy option.

1C77 and 1C78 is a near-daily occurance. 1C78 usually then ends up late at Cogload so 2C73 gets to go first and follows it all the way to Plymouth. Passengers on 1C78 miss out on the Ivybridge connection onto 2C73 which invariable leads to a last minute scramble to get from 1C78 at Plymouth to get into Cornwall. In the worst case 2T19 gets let go first from Exeter St Davids too.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

No you misunderstand me. The fast does not overtake the stopper at all, as technically it is pathed behind it. The trouble is, the stoppers xx35 off Paddington very very rarely run to time, and if even about 2 minutes late get caught up by the following xx03 fast. The fast then just follows it with associated delays. Its something that desperately needs sorting, something as simple as retiming the B and H stoppers to leave 10 to 15 minutes earlier would be absolutely transformational to GWR punctuality, yet I haven't heard anything about changing the timings even being considered.

Where would you like the extra loops to be built so that the (now xx20ish) Padd-Exeter semi fast can overtake the Bedwyn Turbo and/or the stone empties that it currently overtakes at Woodborough? And an extra Class 80x will also be required as the xx09-35 turnround at Padd will no longer work. Other than that - great plan!

 

[irish_rail]

Where would you like the extra loops to be built so that the (now xx20ish) Padd-Exeter semi fast can overtake the Bedwyn Turbo and/or the stone empties that it currently overtakes at Woodborough? And an extra Class 80x will also be required as the xx09-35 turnround at Padd will no longer work. Other than that - great plan!

No need for sarcasm. What do you propose? The current timetable isn't working ,FACT. Something needs doing. The turnarounds already don't work, so changing these would be no bad thing. Do GWR need extra sets? Yes, of course. Hopefully these may be forthcoming if 175s are brought in freeing up some 5 cars. This may allow some changes to be made. Because something needs to change, the current situation is untenable long term.
One of the big problems with the xx35 isn't what you mention, but the fact it usually leaves Paddington late. The 1635 is a particular offender as it is booked to couple to another set in Padd Station 20 minutes before departure, one set ex Oxford the other ex Exeter. Needless to say problems tend to occur. If anything the Bedwyn Turbo and freight could potentially be altered to allow the xx35 to leave slightly earlier, where there is a will there is a way!

The days when trains could "make up time" are long gone. Speed is strictly controlled so any late running pretty much stay that way.

1c94 yesterday would suggest otherwise. 26 late passing Bedwyn on realtime trains, and on time at Penzance. Given a decent run (does occasionally happen), there is plenty of scope to make up time, it's just it is very rare for control / signallers to be proactive enough to hold a stopper for a couple of minutes here or there. By the looks of it, 1c94 yesterday was able to make up so much time as it was allowed to pass stopper 1c93 in the platform at Newbury which made a huge difference. Controllers and signallers should be given the freedom to be affecting descions like this more often.