Strike dates announced for Scotrail

[snookertam]

The conductor grade at Central feels increasingly threatened as the number of routes they have operated over the years has steadily decreased, down to a small handful. They believe that any change to their current role is a precursor to removing their jobs completely and no amount of reassurance or evidence to the contrary will change that. They will view this as time to draw a line in the sand.

I understand the comments on DOO services in the West of Scotland, and I’m happy to use them myself, but I personally know of current and ex-railway employees who will refuse to step foot on such services on the basis that they consider them to be unsafe. There are strong feelings out there over the issue.

 

[kw12]

Rail union TSSA has announced further strike action at ScotRail in a long running dispute over on call working arrangements.

Strikes have been declared for the 30th and 31st of March by our Operations Team Manager (OTM) grades in the latest stage of a dispute going back to late 2021. Similar action took place last December.

Since then, and after high-level in person talks between ScotRail bosses and TSSA General Secretary, Maryam Eslamdoust, the company has done nothing to suggest they are prepared to shift their ground.

Commenting, Eslamdoust said: “It’s simply not acceptable to have ScotRail stick their heads in the sand and ignore the pressing concerns of our members. That is why we will act by returning to the picket line.

“Our union only goes on strike as a last resort and I would urge ScotRail to come back to the table with meaningful proposals regarding our numerous concerns about the terms and conditions of on call duties.

“Our members are vital to the running of the Scotland’s railways and deserve to be treated with respect by their employers over their legitimate grievances. Since our last walkout we have only grown in strength among these grades.”

The dispute includes Conductor Team Managers, Driver Team Managers, On Train Team Managers and Station Team Managers, Operations Development Managers and Senior Operations Development Managers working at stations across Scotland.

Further strikes announced at ScotRail | TSSA​

Rail union TSSA has announced further strike action at ScotRail in a long running dispute over on call working arrangements. Read more here.

www.tssa.org.uk

Is this strike going ahead? There is no mention of it on ScotRail's website:

Industrial Action

Last updated: 22 April 2024 This page is dedicated to keeping you updated about upcoming strike days planned by rail unions, which may affect ScotRail services. ScotRail is not currently subject to industrial action. Services are unaffected by any planned industrial action disputes affecting...

www.scotrail.co.uk

Last updated: 26 March 2024

This page is dedicated to keeping you updated about upcoming strike days planned by rail unions, which may affect ScotRail services.

ScotRail is not currently subject to industrial action. Services are unaffected by any planned industrial action disputes affecting other UK train operators.

If any strike days are announced, which do affect ScotRail services, we will update customers on our website and on our social media channels - follow @scotrail on X (Twitter) .

 

[kkong]

I personally know of current and ex-railway employees who will refuse to step foot on such services on the basis that they consider them to be unsafe. There are strong feelings out there over the issue.

To me, that seems an illogical belief without an evidential basis.

Do these same people also refuse to set foot inside motor cars?

 

[ComUtoR]

To me, that seems an illogical belief without an evidential basis.

As with most things in life. This isn't unique in any way.

Do these same people also refuse to set foot inside motor cars?

Pretty much, yes. There are plenty of people who choose a certain way to do things because they strongly believe in X, Y, or Z.

Some don't bank online, refuse to use chip and pin, don't have a mobile phone, put sticky tape over the laptop camera, don't fly, use Eurostar, don't use Chinese products, etc etc.

Not forgetting that there is a campaign regarding young adults being banned from having young passengers; because it's unsafe.

 

[kkong]

Pretty much, yes. There are plenty of people who choose a certain way to do things because they strongly believe in X, Y, or Z.

So we have current railway employees who (1) won't set foot on a DOO train and (2) won't set foot in a motor car.

Hopefully they live close to their place of work!

 

[380101]

Is this strike going ahead? There is no mention of it on ScotRail's website:

The TSSA strike won't affect any services. Driver Team Managers and Conductor Team Managers are in dispute over out of hours On-Call duties because they don't get any additional payment if they are called out to an incident.

 

[Falcon1200]

I personally know of current and ex-railway employees who will refuse to step foot on such services on the basis that they consider them to be unsafe.

In which case they are very much limiting their rail travel options in the West of Scotland! I have been setting foot on DOO trains since they were first introduced here in 1986 and have no qualms whatsoever about their safety; What actual statistics are there that prove DOO trains are unsafe?

Having said that, I do appreciate the fear that Guards have for their future, but the solution to that is a cast-iron guarantee that if or when further DOO is introduced, no Guards will lose their jobs, or suffer any reduction in pay, either basic or take-home.

 

[380101]

Having said that, I do appreciate the fear that Guards have for their future, but the solution to that is a cast-iron guarantee that if or when further DOO is introduced, no Guards will lose their jobs, or suffer any reduction in pay, either basic or take-home.

This guarantee has been given to all guards that are based at Glasgow Central, Ayr, Dumfries and Stranraer.

 

[68000]

I personally know of current and ex-railway employees who will refuse to step foot on such services on the basis that they consider them to be unsafe. There are strong feelings out there over the issue.

They have an irrational fear then. I wonder if they use the bus instead?

 

[Falcon1200]

This guarantee has been given to all guards that are based at Glasgow Central, Ayr, Dumfries and Stranraer.

Thanks, that's a good thing, although unlikely to change the RMT's stance on DOO!

 

[Starmill]

Plenty of guards releasing doors on long trains in the southeast, nothing particularly unusual about that.

No. The only thing that's unusual, as I was saying, was for the guard not to be aware of the precisely where the front and rear of their train is, by relying on their route knowledge.

The problem, from a safety management point of view, with a policy of “if you think you need to” is that eventually, inevitably, it WILL be the cause of people not checking - because they know they don’t have to, and because in general humans are lazy.

There's no evidence to suggest that. Good judgment is imperative in all safety critical roles.

This is why the railway, and other safety critical industries, by and large operate with policies based on doing things routinely and on a mandatory basis rather than letting people make their own decisions about how many layers of safety are required. It makes a lot of sense, and it’s a better way of doing things.

It's not. It's something dreamt up for Northern and ScotRail, because someone's trying to justify their job. Nowhere else is this an issue. For example the guard on SWR can easily release the doors more quickly than the driver on Southern, or the correct side door enable on London Overground. But Northern could never achieve the station work times of any of the three because they're clueless and poorly managed.

 

[Towers]

No. The only thing that's unusual, as I was saying, was for the guard not to be aware of the precisely where the front and rear of their train is, by relying on their route knowledge.


There's no evidence to suggest that. Good judgment is imperative in all safety critical roles.


It's not. It's something dreamt up for Northern and ScotRail, because someone's trying to justify their job. Nowhere else is this an issue. For example the guard on SWR can easily release the doors more quickly than the driver on Southern, or the correct side door enable on London Overground. But Northern could never achieve the station work times of any of the three because they're clueless and poorly managed.

Disagree on all counts; but each to their own!

I’ve no idea how route knowledge tells a guard somewhere in the middle of an 8 car formation that their driver hasn’t overshot or pulled up short by half a coachlength, particularly when the far more comprehensive route knowledge held by the driver themselves still allows those mistakes to happen in the first place.

As for those thoughts on how safety policies work and are applied, you don’t work for WCRC do you?!

 

[Starmill]

Disagree on all counts; but each to their own!

I’ve no idea how route knowledge tells a guard somewhere in the middle of an 8 car formation that their driver hasn’t overshot or pulled up short by half a coachlength, particularly when the far more comprehensive route knowledge held by the driver themselves still allows those mistakes to happen in the first place.

As for those thoughts on how safety policies work and are applied, you don’t work for WCRC do you?!

If any of what you're claiming were true it would imply SWR, EMR, WMR (etc) trains are more dangerous than Northern ones. It's plain that's absolutely false.

They have an irrational fear then. I wonder if they use the bus instead?

Maybe people with this fear choose never to travel in any road vehicles or use any roads open to motor vehicles, even as a cyclist or pedestrian. But if such people exist I'd love to hear from them!

 

[Towers]

If any of what you're claiming were true it would imply SWR, EMR, WMR (etc) trains are more dangerous than Northern ones. It's plain that's absolutely false.

SWR use ASDO, which allows the guard to release the doors with significantly more confidence that the train is correctly platformed. Northern run a massively mixed fleet with all manner of weird & wonderful formations and unit allocations, it is to be entirely expected that any diligent guard would be aware of the heightened risk of a station stopping incident that the situation brings and would be doubly cautious as a result. Basic common sense.

 

[Starmill]

SWR use ASDO, which allows the guard to release the doors with significantly more confidence that the train is correctly platformed.

Not really. Even C-ASDO won't usually protect against overrunning or underrunning. Also, in general the metro fleet hasn't had anything, and the diesel fleet has a very basic form of guard operated SDO.

Northern run a massively mixed fleet with all manner of weird & wonderful formations and unit allocations, it is to be entirely expected that any diligent guard would be aware of the heightened risk of a station stopping incident that the situation brings and would be doubly cautious as a result.

It's not the case that the rolling stock being mixed is the reason though is it? It's because someone decided on a blanket policy just because they wanted to be different, and they've messed it up.

Basic common sense.

Really? I'd argue that it's actually common sense to be less prescriptive about how the train is worked, because this far better guards against complacency and repetitive action. Clearly that's a view shared by standards managers across the railway industry (except at Northern obviously) but you're unhappy with it? That's why the phrase common sense is quite unhelpful, it literally just means whatever you want it to mean.

 

[Towers]

Not really. Even C-ASDO won't usually protect against overrunning or underrunning. Also, in general the metro fleet hasn't had anything, and the diesel fleet has a very basic form of guard operated SDO.

Really? I'd argue that it's actually common sense to be less prescriptive about how the train is worked, because this far better guards against complacency and repetitive action. Clearly that's a view shared by standards managers across the railway industry (except at Northern obviously) but you're unhappy with it? That's why the phrase common sense is quite unhelpful, it literally just means whatever you want it to mean.

The SWR diesel fleet will always be slow, as 158/159 doors are not swift to open. Neither of course are Northern or anyone else’s 158 doors! Neither are Desiro doors for that matter, in fact they are notoriously slow. This obviously builds in seconds to the process, and those seconds can seem an age when you’re eager for the doors to release.

We’re back to the argument about why policies are implemented again; sadly in railway terms “less prescriptive” inevitably means ‘shortcuts’ to some, and they evidently they require saving from themselves hence blanket policies and consistent safety requirements!

 

[Starmill]

We’re back to the argument about why policies are implemented again; sadly in railway terms “less prescriptive” inevitably means ‘shortcuts’ to some, and they evidently they require saving from themselves hence blanket policies and consistent safety requirements!

This is obviously false though. Stepping down as a requirement at every station is very unusual and inconsistent with the norm. Most guards in the course of releasing the doors wouldn't do so at every station, though any could, wherever they wanted to. Safety is simply being deployed as a convenient cover.

The SWR diesel fleet will always be slow, as 158/159 doors are not swift to open. Neither of course are Northern or anyone else’s 158 doors! Neither are Desiro doors for that matter, in fact they are notoriously slow. This obviously builds in seconds to the process, and those seconds can seem an age when you’re eager for the doors to release.

Nobody's mentioned the actual door open/close and alighting/boarding times though have they? Just the stop to release time.

Still, at least it's not as daft as using two units in multiple, one of which has a minimum timer on the open buttons before the release and the other doesn't...

 

[Towers]

Still, at least it's not as daft as using two units in multiple, one of which has a minimum timer on the open buttons before the release and the other doesn't...

That’s certainly curious! What’s the traction?

This is obviously false though. Stepping down as a requirement at every station is very unusual and inconsistent with the norm. Most guards in the course of releasing the doors wouldn't do so at every station, though any could, wherever they wanted to. Safety is simply being deployed as a convenient cover.


Nobody's mentioned the actual door open/close and alighting/boarding times though have they? Just the stop to release time.

Regarding it being ‘unusual’ etc, you’re saying Northern do it. GWR also do it, and just those two alone are massive TOCs operating a fair amout of guard-release mileage (less so GWR these days admittedly, but it still covers all of their 150/158/255 plus of course the Sleeper). Is anyone else doing it?

As for slow doors, the slow operation of a passenger door where being used as a local will obviously impact the stop to release time, whether the guard steps down or just looks out.

 

[Starmill]

That’s certainly curious! What’s the traction?

I believe it was class 170 at EMR, where there are at least four different lineages of Turbostars in use.

 

[chrisp37]

The 10.10am from Mallaig to Glasgow Queen Street was cancelled this morning due to “shortage of station staff”. It started at Fort William instead. Is this related to the TSSA industrial action?

 

[380101]

The 10.10am from Mallaig to Glasgow Queen Street was cancelled this morning due to “shortage of station staff”. It started at Fort William instead. Is this related to the TSSA industrial action?

No. As mentioned further up thread, the TSSA industrial action relates to Driver and Conductor Team Managers and revolves around a dispute over out of hours On-call payments.

 

[Mag_seven]

I think we will just leave this one here until there have been any further developments in either the TSSA or RMT disputes with Scotrail.