Super Off-Peak on an Off-Peak

[Terre-Saint]

Hi all - I have 3 points I would greatly appreciate guidance on;

1: I was caught with a super off-peak ticket on an off-peak train from London to Birmingham (Chiltern). The ticket guy took my address down and told me I should expect a letter in the next 3-4 weeks.

A) should I expect to get a penalty fare notice, or what is the likelihood of receiving a notice that they intend to prosecute? The ticket guy didn't offer the opportunity to pay a fine or buy a ticket on the train, so is that the option that is first used when they send a letter?
B) is there anything I can do to mitigate the situation?
C) does the fact that I gave my address mean I will receive a letter notifying me they intend to prosecute?​

2: The ticket guy also asked to see my railcard. It is valid, and I'm within the age range, so the railcard is in good order. However, he asked to see my ID which I did not have on me, but I offered to show him a company card or other document with my name. I ended up showing him a copy of my leasehold agreement, which had my address on it - though he never asked for my name again. My concern is that they’ll also assume I was fraudulently using the railcard, as I had no way of proving my age on the train. What is likely to happen and what I can do to pre-empt the escalation/letter or put this to rest in the first instance? i.e. can I call Chiltern or email them?

3: I’m going abroad for the Christmas holidays next week, returning in January. I've read that a) the letters take 3-4 weeks to arrive and b) one has 14/21 days to respond. My concern is that i won't be in the country when the letter arrives, and I may subsequently miss any opportunity to reply within the requisite period of time. Again, grateful for any guidance on this.

My strong preference would be to do something now already rather than wait for any letters and the threat of prosecution.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We could do with knowing a bit more information from you.

Exactly what ticket did you have. If it was a return were you using the outward or return portion? What was the routeing - it'll probably say 'valid via High Wycombe only' or 'Any Permitted'. It might say 'valid on Chiltern Trains only', or very unlikley 'valid on LNR/WMT trains only'. How much did the ticket cost? What train did you use it on?

Section 9.5 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel says:

9.5 Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so; you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

So, if what you say is correct then you should only have been charged the difference in price between the super off-peak and off-peak ticket. Were you offered this?

With the railcard, if it was being correctly used then you have nothing to fear. There is no requirement to carry ID to use a railcard.

You're likely to get a letter from Chiltern or a company called Transport Investigations Limited (who deal with many of Chiltern's cases like this). TIL aren't the easist company to deal with but taking what you've told us at face value they do not have a case against you other than to ask you to pay the excess fare.

There's nothing to be gained by trying to contact them ahead of the letter arriving. If anything this could be counterproductive. Will anyone have access to your post while you are away, or could you arrange for someone to have access?

Post a copy of the letter (with personal details redacted) along with your fdraft reply and we will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[185]

(For information, Chiltern also has a Super Off Peak Return, £36.40)

 

[yorkie]

1: I was caught with a super off-peak ticket on an off-peak train from London to Birmingham (Chiltern). The ticket guy took my address down and told me I should expect a letter in the next 3-4 weeks.

A) should I expect to get a penalty fare notice, or what is the likelihood of receiving a notice that they intend to prosecute? The ticket guy didn't offer the opportunity to pay a fine or buy a ticket on the train​

That's odd; normally this would be corrected by an excess fare. Was there something extra going on here? For example, did the barriers accept or reject the ticket, or did you use some other ticket to get through the barriers?

If there was nothing untoward on your part, then the excess should be charged. A Penalty Fare does not apply for this situation.

2: The ticket guy also asked to see my railcard. It is valid, and I'm within the age range, so the railcard is in good order. However, he asked to see my ID which I did not have on me, but I offered to show him a company card or other document with my name. I ended up showing him a copy of my leasehold agreement, which had my address on it - though he never asked for my name again. My concern is that they’ll also assume I was fraudulently using the railcard, as I had no way of proving my age on the train. What is likely to happen and what I can do to pre-empt the escalation/letter or put this to rest in the first instance? i.e. can I call Chiltern or email them?

You have a valid Railcard and showed it? There should be no need to prove eligibility of the Railcard. Is there any reason you can think of, why the Railcard was not simply accepted?

Is this a journey you make regularly, or a one-off?

Where/when did you buy the ticket?

What train did you catch?

At present, we are not able to provide any meaningful advice because there is too much missing information.

 

[AlterEgo]

2: The ticket guy also asked to see my railcard. It is valid, and I'm within the age range, so the railcard is in good order. However, he asked to see my ID which I did not have on me, but I offered to show him a company card or other document with my name. I ended up showing him a copy of my leasehold agreement, which had my address on it - though he never asked for my name again. My concern is that they’ll also assume I was fraudulently using the railcard, as I had no way of proving my age on the train. What is likely to happen and what I can do to pre-empt the escalation/letter or put this to rest in the first instance? i.e. can I call Chiltern or email them?

What railcard did you use? Did it have a separate photo card, which you were unable to show?

 

[Terre-Saint]

Thank you, all - this is much appreciated! Please see additional information below;

@Hadders - Ticket was a super off peak return via high Wycombe valid until 22 dec, i was on the return journey. Ticket was £24 (Usual £36.40 with railcard discount)
I take the trip regularly but i was definitely not offered to pay the differnce or anything, he immediately asked for my address and details to say i would be sent a letter.

@yorkie - ticket bought on trainline. I scanned the ticket at Marlyebone and the gates opened as one would expect. I got on a train going to bham snow hill, though my stop was bham moor street (one before snow hill).

@AlterEgo - i have the railcard app which has my name, the category (16-25), validity and a picture of my face. I showed him this but he just said i had an invalid ticket and asked for details.

 

[Haywain]

have the railcard app which has my name, the category (16-25), validity and a picture of my face. I showed him this but he just said i had an invalid ticket and asked for details.

Did you show a screenshot of the railcard, or the railcard in the app?

 

[Krokodil]

The reason that they asked for ID will simply have been to confirm that the name and address you gave were genuine.

 

[Terre-Saint]

Did you show a screenshot of the railcard, or the railcard in the app?

Thanks. I showed in the app.

The reason that they asked for ID will simply have been to confirm that the name and address you gave were genuine.

Okay, makes sense thank you. Does anyone know what the likelihood of them undertaking a full investigation is?

 

[Haywain]

I scanned the ticket at Marlyebone and the gates opened as one would expect.

I'm not sure why it would be expected that the gates accept a ticket and open at a time that it isn't valid.

 

[Terre-Saint]

I'm not sure why it would be expected that the gates accept a ticket and open at a time that it isn't valid.

I assume the gates or operating systems aren’t able to recognise this? Though it then leads to situations like this!

 

[Hadders]

@Hadders - Ticket was a super off peak return via high Wycombe valid until 22 dec, i was on the return journey. Ticket was £24 (Usual £36.40 with railcard discount)
I take the trip regularly but i was definitely not offered to pay the differnce or anything, he immediately asked for my address and details to say i would be sent a letter.

Thanks for confirming. You should’ve been sold an excess fare. This is very poor behaviour from the inspector.

Let us know when the letter from Chiltern/TIL arrives and we will be happy to assist with the correct wording.

Once the matter is concluded I would be make a formal complaint to Chiltern about what has happened.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for confirming. You should’ve been sold an excess fare. This is very poor behaviour from the inspector.

Let us know when the letter from Chiltern/TIL arrives and we will be happy to assist with the correct wording.

Once the matter is concluded I would be make a formal complaint to Chiltern about what has happened.

Would the inspector have taken the view (or more specifically would they be correct to take the view) that the Excess Fare should have been paid at the ticket office before boarding, by any chance?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would the inspector have taken the view (or more specifically would they be correct to take the view) that the Excess Fare should have been paid at the ticket office before boarding, by any chance?

This has come up before and it does appear to be the policy of most of the DOO TOCs that ALL ticketing irregularities must be resolved before attempting to enter a gateline (or boarding a train if there isn't a gateline), but this policy does seem to conflict with the NRCoT.

Even the internal brief for the new contactless-aligned-ish (!) tickets seems to allude to this, referring to offering an excess as a form of leniency.

 

[Hadders]

Would the inspector have taken the view (or more specifically would they be correct to take the view) that the Excess Fare should have been paid at the ticket office before boarding, by any chance?

There’s nothing in the NRCoT that says the excess must be obtained before boarding.

 

[Haywain]

It could have been done in this way because the inspector had no way of issuing an excess ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could have been done in this way because the inspector had no way of issuing an excess ticket.

It's possible that the OP's letter will simply ask them for the excess fare, but I'm sure we've seen this situation before and it was for £100+full Anytime fare.

 

[Hadders]

It could have been done in this way because the inspector had no way of issuing an excess ticket.

That’s fine if Chiltern send an invoice to the OP but totally out of order if they send a letter saying they’ve received a report of a ticket irregularity and threatening prosecution.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

1: I was caught with a super off-peak ticket on an off-peak train from London to Birmingham (Chiltern)

There is no such thing as a off peak train so the inspector was wrong to say this, if he did. Personally I wouldn't have any idea where to check offpeak restrictions if I hadn't discovered this forum.

 

[Terre-Saint]

Thanks for confirming. You should’ve been sold an excess fare. This is very poor behaviour from the inspector.

Let us know when the letter from Chiltern/TIL arrives and we will be happy to assist with the correct wording.

Once the matter is concluded I would be make a formal complaint to Chiltern about what has happened.

This is very helpful, thank you! I will revert once i receive the letter.

I’ve also reviewed the NRToCs (in my view drafted vaguely) and it does seem to be silent on what the procedure is for ‘invalid‘ tickets and how these are to be dealt with - does anyone know if each provider and/or inspector has their own policy / discretion as to whether to charge an excess fare or immediately send prosecution letters, it feels almost frivolous to resort to this in the first instance.

 

[Krokodil]

Personally I wouldn't have any idea where to check offpeak restrictions if I hadn't discovered this forum.

On physical tickets a direct web address is printed on them.

 

[ainsworth74]

On physical tickets a direct web address is printed on them.

And e-tickets usually provide a link to the relevant page.

Of course the restriction text can sometimes be extremely hard to decipher. For instance 2V is fairly straightforward:

Restrictions​

Applicable Days​

Monday to Friday

Outward Travel​

Not valid for trains scheduled to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.

Return Travel​

Not valid for trains scheduled to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.

Notes​

Overnight Break of Journey is permitted under this restriction code, but the restriction applies for all individual legs of the journey at each intermediate station:
Outward (on day 2): Outward restrictions as above apply from the intermediate station, Monday-Friday. Return: Return restrictions as above apply from the intermediate station, Monday-Friday.

Easement​

-

Seasonal Variations​

This restriction is lifted all day for the Christmas period and New Year holidays:
22 - 31 December 2023, 01 January 2024.

I suspect most people can probably work out what that one means! But then you start to get codes YP (I'm certain there are worse but that one I could find quickly):

Restrictions​

Applicable Days​

Monday to Friday

Outward Travel​

Not valid on trains timed to depart:

• London Paddington after 04:29 and before 10:10 and after 15:04 and before 19:01
• Reading after 04:29 and before 10:30 and after 15:29 and before 19:01;
• London Waterloo after 04:29 and before 08:16 and after 15:59 and before 19:01;
• Clapham Junction after 15:59 and before 19:01.

Return Travel​

Not valid for travel on trains timed to depart earlier than shown from the following stations:

• 08:15 from St Germans
• 08:25 from Saltash
• 08:18 from Plymouth
• 08:49 from Ivybridge
• 08:45 from Totnes
• 09:00 from Newton Abbot
• 09:20 from Exeter St Davids

Not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Waterloo before 11:48.

Notes​

Super Off-Peak tickets from stations not listed are valid for connections into trains departing as shown above.
Restriction code 2W applies to all journeys via Newbury or Didcot Parkway, not passing through Reading.Restriction code Q8 applies to all journeys via Fareham / Southampton / Salisbury.Restriction codes CI / CJ apply to all journeys via London St Pancras International.

Easement​

If travelling on the Great Western Railway 'Night Riviera' sleeper service in the westbound direction, customers may continue their journey after alighting from the sleeper in the morning without further restriction.

Seasonal Variations​

Due to Improvement work between Exeter St Davids and Taunton from Monday 28 September to Friday 02 October, some services will be diverted. As a result amendments will be implemented to this code.

Which itself has its own exceptions and requires cross-reference to four different restriction codes depending on the journey being undertaken! Best of luck to the passenger working out that one...

 

[Brissle Girl]

I’ve also reviewed the NRToCs (in my view drafted vaguely) and it does seem to be silent on what the procedure is for ‘invalid‘ tickets and how these are to be dealt with - does anyone know if each provider and/or inspector has their own policy / discretion as to whether to charge an excess fare or immediately send prosecution letters, it feels almost frivolous to resort to this in the first instance.

The whole of Section 5 is entitled "Travelling without a valid ticket", and 9.5 1 refers to "invalid for the service on which you are travelling", so to my mind it clearly covers the situation in which your ticket is checked on the train and found to be invalid. ie, you are only charged the difference in fare.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is very helpful, thank you! I will revert once i receive the letter.

I’ve also reviewed the NRToCs (in my view drafted vaguely) and it does seem to be silent on what the procedure is for ‘invalid‘ tickets and how these are to be dealt with - does anyone know if each provider and/or inspector has their own policy / discretion as to whether to charge an excess fare or immediately send prosecution letters, it feels almost frivolous to resort to this in the first instance.

And given the replies to my question about this from knowledgeable forum members it may be necessary to quote the relevant section from the NRCoT that supports the reason that you should have been offered this option to pay the Excess - not reported for investigation, which is what is likely to have happened IMHO (ie you will get the standard 'threatening letter' from Chiltern / TIL on behalf of Chiltern).

 

[miami]

Just to clarify, was it a super off peak ticket from Birmingham to London super off peak, and on the return leg, on a weekday, on a train timed to depart Marylebone after 04:29 and before 08:30, or after 16:00 and before 19:00 -- presumably the 0604, 0631, 0735, 1737 or 1837?

It's worth double checking your ticket was definitely not valid. I don't know about trainline e-tickets, but on real tickets there would be a "PV" restriction code, or at one point a URL pointing (eventually) to the restrictions https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/pv/

I've not personally had a problem at Moor Street or Marylebone, but Euston are known for making up restrictions and rules like "this is a peak train".

 

[Terre-Saint]

Just to clarify, was it a super off peak ticket from Birmingham to London super off peak, and on the return leg, on a weekday, on a train timed to depart Marylebone after 04:29 and before 08:30, or after 16:00 and before 19:00 -- presumably the 0604, 0631, 0735, 1737 or 1837?

It's worth double checking your ticket was definitely not valid. I don't know about trainline e-tickets, but on real tickets there would be a "PV" restriction code, or at one point a URL pointing (eventually) to the restrictions https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/pv/

I've not personally had a problem at Moor Street or Marylebone, but Euston are known for making up restrictions and rules like "this is a peak train".

Thanks. Yes, so the super Off peak is after 19:00 (and off peak between 16:00 and 18:59 apparently) - I was on the 18:37. I do think it was strictly speaking invalid, but will check if i should have been offered an excess fee in the first instance.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Thanks. Yes, so the super Off peak is after 19:00 (and off peak between 16:00 and 18:59 apparently) - I was on the 18:37. I do think it was strictly speaking invalid, but will check if i should have been offered an excess fee in the first instance.

I'm not sure why you say "strictly speaking invalid". It was invalid full stop.

But there's no ambiguity that you should have been offered the opportunity to upgrade the ticket to the cheapest most appropriate one for your journey, and that should be the thrust of your response when you receive the letter. (It could be that one will not arrive, if someone spots that you were not treated appropriately, and decides to drop the case, but I suspect that's unlikely.) You could also argue that because you were not treated in line with the NRCoT, and the embarrassment it caused you, that it would be appropriate to waive the excess. That would be reasonable IMO, but obviously you might take a different approach to getting the matter resolved.

 

[yorkie]

Would the inspector have taken the view (or more specifically would they be correct to take the view) that the Excess Fare should have been paid at the ticket office before boarding, by any chance?

Unless there is some evidence to circumvent the fare, e.g. if the gateline rejected the ticket and the passenger found a way through regardless, the correct action on board the train is to excess the fare, irrespective of whether a ticket office is open or not.

This has come up before and it does appear to be the policy of most of the DOO TOCs that ALL ticketing irregularities must be resolved before attempting to enter a gateline (or boarding a train if there isn't a gateline), but this policy does seem to conflict with the NRCoT.

Even the internal brief for the new contactless-aligned-ish (!) tickets seems to allude to this, referring to offering an excess as a form of leniency.

The method of operation of the train is irrelevance; please don't bring this up.

The NRCoT does allow for the excess for be paid on the train, however if the TOC has procedures in place for determining, before boarding the train, that such excess fares are required to be paid, then the TOC can insist the matter is rectified before boarding.

What a TOC cannot (legitimately) do is to simply not undertake any such checks and then refuse to adhere to the NRCoT.

However train companies like Chiltern don't have sufficient safeguards in place to ensure that appropriate and correct procedures are consistently carried out.

This is very helpful, thank you! I will revert once i receive the letter.

I’ve also reviewed the NRToCs (in my view drafted vaguely) and it does seem to be silent on what the procedure is for ‘invalid‘ tickets and how these are to be dealt with - does anyone know if each provider and/or inspector has their own policy / discretion as to whether to charge an excess fare or immediately send prosecution letters, it feels almost frivolous to resort to this in the first instance.

The correct procedure for a time restricted ticket is simply to access it.

I'm not sure why you say "strictly speaking invalid". It was invalid full stop.

But there's no ambiguity that you should have been offered the opportunity to upgrade the ticket to the cheapest most appropriate one for your journey, and that should be the thrust of your response when you receive the letter. (It could be that one will not arrive, if someone spots that you were not treated appropriately, and decides to drop the case, but I suspect that's unlikely.) You could also argue that because you were not treated in line with the NRCoT, and the embarrassment it caused you, that it would be appropriate to waive the excess. That would be reasonable IMO, but obviously you might take a different approach to getting the matter resolved.

I largely concur, except if it was me I would be willingly offering to pay the excess, and wouldn't be trying to get out of it (even though morally I think you have a good point, pragmatically, it may not go down well, and ultimately from a legal point of view, the excess is still due, unless the company chooses to waive it; I just personally wouldn't go down that road of asking).

@Terre-Saint please feel free to post a draft of your letter here, for proof reading.

Just to clarify, was it a super off peak ticket from Birmingham to London super off peak, and on the return leg, on a weekday, on a train timed to depart Marylebone after 04:29 and before 08:30, or after 16:00 and before 19:00 -- presumably the 0604, 0631, 0735, 1737 or 1837?

It's worth double checking your ticket was definitely not valid. I don't know about trainline e-tickets, but on real tickets there would be a "PV" restriction code, or at one point a URL pointing (eventually) to the restrictions https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/pv/

I've not personally had a problem at Moor Street or Marylebone, but Euston are known for making up restrictions and rules like "this is a peak train".

Agreed it's worth checking, as we have seen instances of (bogus) prosecutions, penalty fares and excesses where the original fare was valid; there are insufficient safeguards in place within many TOCs to ensure that incorrect charges are not either made or pursued through the courts.

And the courts lack that knowledge, too.

 

[Terre-Saint]

Unless there is some evidence to circumvent the fare, e.g. if the gateline rejected the ticket and the passenger found a way through regardless, the correct action on board the train is to excess the fare, irrespective of whether a ticket office is open or not.


The method of operation of the train is irrelevance; please don't bring this up.

The NRCoT does allow for the excess for be paid on the train, however if the TOC has procedures in place for determining, before boarding the train, that such excess fares are required to be paid, then the TOC can insist the matter is rectified before boarding.

What a TOC cannot (legitimately) do is to simply not undertake any such checks and then refuse to adhere to the NRCoT.

However train companies like Chiltern don't have sufficient safeguards in place to ensure that appropriate and correct procedures are consistently carried out.


The correct procedure for a time restricted ticket is simply to access it.


I largely concur, except if it was me I would be willingly offering to pay the excess, and wouldn't be trying to get out of it (even though morally I think you have a good point, pragmatically, it may not go down well, and ultimately from a legal point of view, the excess is still due, unless the company chooses to waive it; I just personally wouldn't go down that road of asking).

@Terre-Saint please feel free to post a draft of your letter here, for proof reading.


Agreed it's worth checking, as we have seen instances of (bogus) prosecutions, penalty fares and excesses where the original fare was valid; there are insufficient safeguards in place within many TOCs to ensure that incorrect charges are not either made or pursued through the courts.

And the courts lack that knowledge, too.

@yorkie thank you so much, very clear and feeling much more reassured. Will drop a draft response in due course on the chain, still trying to figure out how to reply in time, considering i wont be in the country when the letter is delivered.