Swanage Railway - could we see trains to Wareham in 2024?

[Titfield]

The diesel powered 4TC charter today from Waterloo has snacks, rather than full dining. So expect many of the passengers will be looking for restaurants in Swanage.

Hopefully so though it is usually the fish and chippies that seem to do the best followed by the odd pub or two.

 

[Invincible]

I sometimes wonder whether the best bet for Swanage in terms of through services would be a Waterloo - Swanage - Waterloo return each Saturday through school summer holidays, in the manner of a 'Merry-maker' charter with the 33 and TC, but with a 'stay a week' ticketing option. In this way, with longer journeys the premium added by the necessarily complex staffing arrangements between the heritage railway and National Rail network can be spread across a larger absolute fare, so is a lesser proportion of it, and hence a less dramatic uplift. Such an operation could even include a Bournemouth stop with part fares giving the option of a day trip to Bournemouth with heritage traction and a day trip to Swanage from there.

Note however that my 'wondering' is not the same as asserting that this idea would definitely be viable!!

Perhaps also in the manner of hastings diesels, they could find a couple of extra ex-EMU mark 1 coaches, to make up a 6-TC to make better use of a path (on what is even at weekends a very busy mainline).

UK Rail tours did Sunday Seaside 73/4TC specials (no dining) from Waterloo to Swanage one year in-between the Wareham trails.
If the Wareham service does not return in 2025, might be a possibility to bring them back.

 

[yorksrob]

Hopefully so though it is usually the fish and chippies that seem to do the best followed by the odd pub or two.

Fortunately the town also has a Wimpy bar.

 

[DelW]

UK Rail tours did Sunday Seaside 73/4TC specials (no dining) from Waterloo to Swanage one year in-between the Wareham trails.
If the Wareham service does not return in 2025, might be a possibility to bring them back.

In October 2013 UK Railtours ran a Waterloo to Swanage charter using SWT class 159s (two units IIRC, though I didn't note the numbers). That consist offers more seats than the 4TC could.

A regular service like that, running maybe one or two days a week, would give some return on the investment in the main-line connection. Of course it would need SWR to be able to spare the units from Exeter services.

 

[Titfield]

In October 2013 UK Railtours ran a Waterloo to Swanage charter using SWT class 159s (two units IIRC, though I didn't note the numbers). That consist offers more seats than the 4TC could.

A regular service like that, running maybe one or two days a week, would give some return on the investment in the main-line connection. Of course it would need SWR to be able to spare the units from Exeter services.

You need drivers who sign the route and as you say units available. The reality is that there is insufficient demand on an ongoing basis for a regular service. The one off may do well in the summer offering that special day out.

 

[Brush 4]

No-one knows if there is sufficient demand or not. Starting trains too late and finishing too early is guaranteed to 'prove' there is no demand. A couple of 07.00-09.00 departures and returns around 17.00-18.00 would reveal true demand, for locals. Tourists are already served. It has to be with subsidy though, no reason why services onto heritage lines from NR should be subject to different financial criteria to the rest of the network.

 

[30907]

No-one knows if there is sufficient demand or not. Starting trains too late and finishing too early is guaranteed to 'prove' there is no demand. A couple of 07.00-09.00 departures and returns around 17.00-18.00 would reveal true demand, for locals. Tourists are already served.

So you are suggesting a commuter service from Swanage outside the railway's normal hours, and not attempt to provide for people travelling to Swanage? Have you guesstimated the cost of having the line open 50% longer?

 

[JonathanH]

Have you guesstimated the cost of having the line open 50% longer?

To what extent can the line be treated as a single track when there is only one train in operation?

 

[Titfield]

No-one knows if there is sufficient demand or not. Starting trains too late and finishing too early is guaranteed to 'prove' there is no demand. A couple of 07.00-09.00 departures and returns around 17.00-18.00 would reveal true demand, for locals. Tourists are already served. It has to be with subsidy though, no reason why services onto heritage lines from NR should be subject to different financial criteria to the rest of the network.

Demand will be quite low as it is an inferior customer proposition to either the private car or the Purbeck Breezer bus service.

The journey times of the train are longer, the fares higher (than the bus), there is less flexibility, you have to change at Wareham (with the additional waiting time there) etc etc.

As I have said before the subsidy required could be more effectively spent enhancing the Purbeck Breezer network.

 

[43096]

Demand will be quite low as it is an inferior customer proposition to either the private car or the Purbeck Breezer bus service.

The journey times of the train are longer, the fares higher (than the bus), there is less flexibility, you have to change at Wareham (with the additional waiting time there) etc etc.

As I have said before the subsidy required could be more effectively spent enhancing the Purbeck Breezer network.

So in short, the reasons why the line shut originally are as relevant today as they were then.

 

[yorksrob]

So in short, the reasons why the line shut originally are as relevant today as they were then.

Not really.

I wonder how many passengers to/from beyond Bournemouth would choose to change at Bournemouth for a bus as opposed to a simple train connection at Wareham, if there were a regular, all-day connecting service with through ticketing (as was the case at closure).

Not many.

 

[zwk500]

I wonder how many passengers to/from beyond Bournemouth would choose to change at Bournemouth for a bus as opposed to a simple train connection at Wareham, if there were a regular, all-day connecting service with through ticketing (as was the case at closure).

Not many.

Nowadays with a £2 cap on the bus fare, I suspect the ticketing issue isn't a problem. Also, if you're changing at Bournemouth and Wareham the bus suddenly becomes a lot more competitive, while if you're starting your journey from Bournemouth (staying/living there) you can get a bus direct or a 1-change train. It quickly looks bad for the train.
However, if you ran a Bournemouth-Swanage direct shuttle then it would be far more attractive and competitive. In the same way the Fawley branch needs to go to Southampton Central and can't just stop at Totton.

 

[yorksrob]

Nowadays with a £2 cap on the bus fare, I suspect the ticketing issue isn't a problem. Also, if you're changing at Bournemouth and Wareham the bus suddenly becomes a lot more competitive, while if you're starting your journey from Bournemouth (staying/living there) you can get a bus direct or a 1-change train. It quickly looks bad for the train.
However, if you ran a Bournemouth-Swanage direct shuttle then it would be far more attractive and competitive. In the same way the Fawley branch needs to go to Southampton Central and can't just stop at Totton.

Yes, this is all true.

Ultimately continuing to intervene heavily with bus fares while allowing train fares to skyrocket will damage rail patronage. I'm not sure how sustainable this position is in the long run though

 

[paul1609]

Not really.

I wonder how many passengers to/from beyond Bournemouth would choose to change at Bournemouth for a bus as opposed to a simple train connection at Wareham, if there were a regular, all-day connecting service with through ticketing (as was the case at closure).

Not many.

I think in this case there actually would:
the bus, opentop service along Bournemouth seafront and then along the edge of Poole Harbour to Sandbanks, across the chain ferry a unique experience for many along Studland Bay over the Purbeck Hills and then along the seafront in Swanage.
train, suburban run through Bournemouth and Poole to Wareham mostly seeing bungalows and industrial estates, tree lined ex freight branch to arrive at large park and ride car park at Norden. Then spectacular run through the Purbeck Hills through Corfe to Swanage. This bit will of course be covered by many bus passengers when they ride on a steam train from Swanage.

 

[yorksrob]

I think in this case there actually would:
the bus, opentop service along Bournemouth seafront and then along the edge of Poole Harbour to Sandbanks, across the chain ferry a unique experience for many along Studland Bay over the Purbeck Hills and then along the seafront in Swanage.
train, suburban run through Bournemouth and Poole to Wareham mostly seeing bungalows and industrial estates, tree lined ex freight branch to arrive at large park and ride car park at Norden. Then spectacular run through the Purbeck Hills through Corfe to Swanage. This bit will of course be covered by many bus passengers when they ride on a steam train from Swanage.

I'm sure if the traditional passenger service had continued, many would have got the train to Swanage for a long break, then had a day trip on the open topped bus.

The issues of a heritage railway struggling to support a main line link are in no way comparable to those of a standard connecting service on the network.

 

[zwk500]

I'm sure if the traditional passenger service had continued, many would have got the train to Swanage for a long break, then had a day trip on the open topped bus.

Or they would have balked at the long roundabout journey, stayed in Bournemouth for the cheaper hotels and more frequent trains and used the bus for a day trip to Swanage.

 

[yorksrob]

Or they would have balked at the long roundabout journey, stayed in Bournemouth for the cheaper hotels and more frequent trains and used the bus for a day trip to Swanage.

Some might have done. Others would have preferred a nice train trip to Swanage with a day trip to Bournemouth.

 

[paul1609]

I'm sure if the traditional passenger service had continued, many would have got the train to Swanage for a long break, then had a day trip on the open topped bus.

The issues of a heritage railway struggling to support a main line link are in no way comparable to those of a standard connecting service on the network.

Again, in this particular case I dont think thats correct. If you look at the history of the Swanage Branch although much loved by railway photographers it had gone in to terminal decline after WW2 because of competition from road transport primarily buses. Its last 30 years consisted of a shuttle service of auto trains and 2 car DMU with the occasional through train on summer saturdays.
Swanage with a population of 11k even today isnt realy big enough to support a non tourist service. It doesnt really have a very large hotel industry and what there is is mostly along the road towards Bournemouth via the Ferry. The modern accomodation market is largely focused on camping and caravans outside the town.

 

[30907]

Again, in this particular case I dont think thats correct. If you look at the history of the Swanage Branch although much loved by railway photographers it had gone in to terminal decline after WW2 because of competition from road transport primarily buses. Its last 30 years consisted of a shuttle service of auto trains and 2 car DMU with the occasional through train on summer saturdays.

Yes, numbers declined from the mid 50s, as they did all round the coast, with car competition, but there were 2-3 full-length summer Saturday trains, plus weekday through coaches (until1962) and a through 4TC (from 1967).
It was only from about 1969 when all through workings were withdrawn that the writing was clearly on the wall.

Swanage with a population of 11k even today isnt realy big enough to support a non tourist service. It doesnt really have a very large hotel industry and what there is is mostly along the road towards Bournemouth via the Ferry. The modern accomodation market is largely focused on camping and caravans outside the town.

Sadly, I agree.

 

[yorksrob]

Again, in this particular case I dont think thats correct. If you look at the history of the Swanage Branch although much loved by railway photographers it had gone in to terminal decline after WW2 because of competition from road transport primarily buses. Its last 30 years consisted of a shuttle service of auto trains and 2 car DMU with the occasional through train on summer saturdays.
Swanage with a population of 11k even today isnt realy big enough to support a non tourist service. It doesnt really have a very large hotel industry and what there is is mostly along the road towards Bournemouth via the Ferry. The modern accomodation market is largely focused on camping and caravans outside the town.

Not at all.

Swanage, like many routes suffered from a lull after the 1950's.

The fact that the route survived so late was testament that it was one of BR's "last chance to get rid of as much route milage as possible at all costs" exercises of the time.

There was no logical, reasonable assessment of what should be retained at that time, it was slash and burn.

 

[Enthusiast]

It doesnt really have a very large hotel industry and what there is is mostly along the road towards Bournemouth via the Ferry. The modern accomodation market is largely focused on camping and caravans outside the town.

Indeed. Swanage has a dearth of decent hotels and, for that matter, hospitality outlets. The only large hotel near the town centre is the Purbeck House Hotel. The Grand is at the other end of the town to the railway station on the road out to Studland - a nice walk after a summer evening in town, but a taxi needed in inclement weather. The rest of the "bricks and mortar" tourist accommodation is mainly bed and breakfast establishments, many of them half way (or all the way) up the steep hills towards Durlston Country Park.

I've not been there for a while. I actually stopped going because I was finding it increasingly difficult to get a decent meal. The few pubs which did food were hit and miss with "chef's gone home" being the stock reply after about 7:30pm. The Red Lion was good for pub grub with freshly caught fish every day, but they went downhill after reverting to frozen fillets. There are one or two nice restaurants (Tawneys Wine Bar and La Trattoria) but that's about it.

I don't know if the railway still runs its evening DMU service up to Corfe Castle. There's a couple of decent pubs there. But the last time I visited the evening service was not operating and the last bus back from Corfe Castle was about 8:30pm (though I notice it runs a bit later now).

It's a shame because it is an attractive town in its way, but it needs a bit to draw the punters in. I cannot see a regular train service really surviving.

 

[Titfield]

Indeed. Swanage has a dearth of decent hotels and, for that matter, hospitality outlets. The only large hotel near the town centre is the Purbeck House Hotel. The Grand is at the other end of the town to the railway station on the road out to Studland - a nice walk after a summer evening in town, but a taxi needed in inclement weather. The rest of the "bricks and mortar" tourist accommodation is mainly bed and breakfast establishments, many of them half way (or all the way) up the steep hills towards Durlston Country Park.

I've not been there for a while. I actually stopped going because I was finding it increasingly difficult to get a decent meal. The few pubs which did food were hit and miss with "chef's gone home" being the stock reply after about 7:30pm. The Red Lion was good for pub grub with freshly caught fish every day, but they went downhill after reverting to frozen fillets. There are one or two nice restaurants (Tawneys Wine Bar and La Trattoria) but that's about it.

I don't know if the railway still runs its evening DMU service up to Corfe Castle. There's a couple of decent pubs there. But the last time I visited the evening service was not operating and the last bus back from Corfe Castle was about 8:30pm (though I notice it runs a bit later now).

It's a shame because it is an attractive town in its way, but it needs a bit to draw the punters in. I cannot see a regular train service really surviving.

The evening DMU service has not run for the last few years but is returning this summer on selected dates in the high season.

The provision of restaurants has improved with The Salt Pig proving very popular.

Overnight accommodation (with the exception of under the radar airbnbs) has declined very considerably. The properties are worth more for conversion into flats than they are as hotels.

There are quite a few second homes / flats in Swanage. Some of those owners patronise the restaurants and pubs.

The driving force behind all this change is that Swanage has become a predominantly day trip market. The camp sites through Harmans Cross Corfe Castle and Norden are all very well (and do good business) but those staying there come into town, use the beach, buy groceries from the co-op and then go back to their campsites to cook on the bbq and drink beer / wine. They do not patronise the pubs and restaurants in Swanage to any great extent.

Swanage Railway has discontinued running its Wessex Belle and Bistro dining train. The set is up for sale. Instead it is offering a small number of fish and chip specials. Though this is more due to the railways decision to abandon some peripheral activities (which were difficult and / or expensive to staff) than a big drop in patronage.

 

[Invincible]

In October 2013 UK Railtours ran a Waterloo to Swanage charter using SWT class 159s (two units IIRC, though I didn't note the numbers). That consist offers more seats than the 4TC could.

The 4TC railtour from Waterloo to the Swanage gala ran Thursday, returning Sunday.
Next steam rail tour to use the Wareham to Swanage line will be 26th June.
So possible for other steam or diesel railtours with various stock to run to Swanage this year.

There is still a remote possibility of a Wareham heritige DMU shuttle in 2025 for leisure/ tourist passengers, if not then the return of 4TC or 159 weekend seaside specials?

 

[Titfield]

The 4TC railtour from Waterloo to the Swanage gala ran Thursday, returning Sunday.
Next steam rail tour to use the Wareham to Swanage line will be 26th June.
So possible for other steam or diesel railtours with various stock to run to Swanage this year.

There is still a remote possibility of a Wareham heritige DMU shuttle in 2025 for leisure/ tourist passengers, if not then the return of 4TC or 159 weekend seaside specials?

Chris Loder of SWR was the driving force behind the services off the mainline to Corfe Castle but he moved onto politics so I am not sure there is the same enthusiasm at SWR for such ventures by SWR.

 

[Brush 4]

That is the crux of the problem. People with a positive can do attitude and the power to do them, are in short supply. Chris Loder has moved on. Others in the past were Chris Green of NSE, Gerry Daniels, Area Manager Salisbury, Lord Hendy, Adrian Shooter, who got the Chiltern line redoubled. Local initiative has been taken away, everything centralised. We need more like the above people. Local Heroes.

 

[30907]

Chris Loder of SWR was the driving force behind the services off the mainline to Corfe Castle but he moved onto politics so I am not sure there is the same enthusiasm at SWR for such ventures by SWR.

And "his" service (BTW did it actually run because of IR issues?) was in marginal time off a Salisbury-Yeovil Weymouth seaside trip which hasn't returned post Covid.

 

[Jan Mayen]

I'd like to thank everyone for their 145 replies to my original question, which was "Just wondering if anyone was aware of any plans for the Swanage Railway to operate to/from Wareham this year?"

The answer to which would would appear to be 'no'.

Perhaps this thread should now be closed.

Thanks all once again.

 

[D Williams]

ah, but a one word answer wouldn't have been so interesting ( or boring)!

 

[Jan Mayen]

ah, but a one word answer wouldn't have been so interesting ( or boring)!

Indeed

 

[theironroad]

Has Swanage railway's official twitter (x) channel been abandoned as doesn't seem to have any posts for couple of months?