Tfl Staff Pass misuse on GA

[Iscaredu]

So I was pulled by plain clothes inspectors between Shenfield and Stratford on the greater anglia train, I'm a train op for LU so I was using my Staff pass, now with my Staff pass I'm aloud to use the whole of the elizabeth line, I'm aloud to use the anglia to Stratford but no beyond that (next station is Shenfield), I wasn't aware of this until I was pulled, complete and utter ignorance on my behalf.

I was tapping it and Shenfield and just boarding any service to liverpool st, anglia or elizabeth line, the gate line works with my pass, tap in, tap out, I was never asked by anglia Staff what train I was boarding or anything that would make me think I wasn't able to do my commute which I've been doing for about 18 months at this point.

I openly admitted this to the plain clothes officer as I had no idea about the rail agreement (I understand that I should know).

I'm more than happy to pay the fees I should have paid by using a train I didn't have free access too.

I'm assuming I'm expecting a letter stating that they are calculating my trips etc but do you think I'll be able to just settle out of court? Or will it be worse as I work for LU.

Detail points

- my commute is Shenfield to Liverpool st
- I use both lines to commute on
- my pass allows me into the station and to exit at both ends.
- Been doing this for 18 months give or take

 

[Somewhere]

In theory, as a member of staff you are responsible for the use/misuse of your pass. But, I have to ask, how much training and briefing is actually given to staff these days? Or are these things just issued willy-nilly like confetti without any training?
For you to be held responsible for any misuse, your employer would have to demonstrate you know where you can / cannot use it
I have a staff pass, and I come across staff who don't know that my pass is perfectly valid in the way I am using it

 

[Iscaredu]

100% my ignorance, most other situations where the pass wouldn't work is the gates wouldn't open.

No information is given in terms of where it works etc, when you start the pass is given to you and they just send you on your way.

 

[ComUtoR]

In theory, as a member of staff you are responsible for the use/misuse of your pass. But, I have to ask, how much training and briefing is actually given to staff these days? Or are these things just issued willy-nilly like confetti without any training?

Why do you need training to use a train ticket ?

For you to be held responsible for any misuse, your employer would have to demonstrate you know where you can / cannot use it

They absolutely can

 

[Somewhere]

Why do you need training to use a train ticket ?

Are you being serious? Staff tickets are so complex, even more so than public tickets. You might as well ask why people need training to drive a train

 

[Ducatist4]

I think you’d be wise to speak to your union rep as soon as possible.

 

[Iscaredu]

I think you’d be wise to speak to your union rep as soon as possible.

Done, called them the same day, like I said, I'm not trying to hide this situation from them, more than happy to pay what is owed which is what I told the officers.

 

[Ducatist4]

Good. But I think it could potentially be far more serious that just paying a fine. Misuse of a staff pass whether deliberate or accidental can been seen as a very serious issue by your employer.

 

[Iscaredu]

Good. But I think it could potentially be far more serious that just paying a fine. Misuse of a staff pass whether deliberate or accidental can been seen as a very serious issue by your employer.

You are correct, been informed it could lead to CDI which Is fine, ill take whatever comes my way as it was me and my actions, just wanted some advice.

 

[43066]

So I was pulled by plain clothes inspectors between Shenfield and Stratford on the greater anglia train, I'm a train op for LU so I was using my Staff pass, now with my Staff pass I'm aloud to use the whole of the elizabeth line, I'm aloud to use the anglia to Stratford but no beyond that (next station is Shenfield), I wasn't aware of this until I was pulled, complete and utter ignorance on my behalf.

I was tapping it and Shenfield and just boarding any service to liverpool st, anglia or elizabeth line, the gate line works with my pass, tap in, tap out, I was never asked by anglia Staff what train I was boarding or anything that would make me think I wasn't able to do my commute which I've been doing for about 18 months at this point.

I openly admitted this to the plain clothes officer as I had no idea about the rail agreement (I understand that I should know).

I'm more than happy to pay the fees I should have paid by using a train I didn't have free access too.

I'm assuming I'm expecting a letter stating that they are calculating my trips etc but do you think I'll be able to just settle out of court? Or will it be worse as I work for LU.

Detail points

- my commute is Shenfield to Liverpool st
- I use both lines to commute on
- my pass allows me into the station and to exit at both ends.
- Been doing this for 18 months give or take

Out of interest, how did they collar you? Were you in uniform and specifically targeted, or was it part of a general revenue check?

Speak to the union as above. In the TOC world it’s quite likely to lead to a withdrawal of travel privileges for a period, worst case it can lead to a gross misconduct charge, so they will be best placed to advise based on previous cases.

 

[electrostar357]

Even after 20 years on the railway, the 'conditions of use' of staff travel facilities can be and is a minefield. The use of such facilities can be more restrictive than many publicly available products and it's quite easy to unintentionally fall foul of some of the rules. Strictly speaking there isn't "training" as such in their use but the RDG and TfL produce hefty guidance documents in the use of travel facilities and the consequences of travel irregularities as well as any services where the use of staff travel is restricted but us staff need to know where to find these documents. The onus on reading these documents rests solely with the holder of those facilities, a bit like reading the Ts&Cs for anything that we all admit to not reading and then getting into trouble when an issue arises.

What happened to the OP could have happened to anybody with the same TfL staff pass; it could be many months before it's finally discovered that you've been using it wrong but only because you've been caught by a RPI. IMO, a little leeway could be shown in that what happened could have been genuine misunderstanding of what trains the pass could be used on because they share the same route (like c2c and LUL between Tower Hill/Fenchurch Street and Upminster). I'm not sure if the OP's pass is valid on the Lizzie from Shenfield or not as it's outside of the zonal area.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the touch in/out records only state a journey between Shenfield and Stratford but NOT on what train so the question is can GA/TfL only really do them for the trip they were caught using at the time and send a somewhat polite but firm reminder of what trains they should be using?

 

[Iscaredu]

Out of interest, how did they collar you? Were you in uniform and specifically targeted, or was it part of a general revenue check?

Speak to the union as above. In the TOC world it’s quite likely to lead to a withdrawal of travel privileges for a period, worst case it can lead to gross misconduct, so they will be best placed to advise based on previous cases.

I was sat at the front amongst them, then halfway through I had badge flashed Infront of my face and asked for my ticket, the rest followed, but I didn't get a receipt which I thought was odd.

I've been informed about a potential 1 year withdrawal of staff travel privileges but as its case by case its hard to say.

 

[Iscaredu]

Even after 20 years on the railway, the 'conditions of use' of staff travel facilities can be and is a minefield. The use of such facilities can be more restrictive than many publicly available products and it's quite easy to unintentionally fall foul of some of the rules. Strictly speaking there isn't "training" as such in their use but the RDG and TfL produce hefty guidance documents in the use of travel facilities and the consequences of travel irregularities as well as any services where the use of staff travel is restricted but us staff need to know where to find these documents. The onus on reading these documents rests solely with the holder of those facilities, a bit like reading the Ts&Cs for anything that we all admit to not reading and then getting into trouble when an issue arises.

What happened to the OP could have happened to anybody with the same TfL staff pass; it could be many months before it's finally discovered that you've been using it wrong but only because you've been caught by a RPI. IMO, a little leeway could be shown in that what happened could have been genuine misunderstanding of what trains the pass could be used on because they share the same route (like c2c and LUL between Tower Hill/Fenchurch Street and Upminster). I'm not sure if the OP's pass is valid on the Lizzie from Shenfield or not as it's outside of the zonal area.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the touch in/out records only state a journey between Shenfield and Stratford but NOT on what train so the question is can GA/TfL only really do them for the trip they were caught using at the time and send a somewhat polite but firm reminder of what trains they should be using?

My pass allows me to use the whole of the Elizabeth line, I agree about the leeway my way, more than happy to reimburse GA for the loss of revenue etc.

They can't prove what train I was on you are correct, I honestly don't know what's going to happen.

 

[43066]

Even after 20 years on the railway, the 'conditions of use' of staff travel facilities can be and is a minefield. The use of such facilities can be more restrictive than many publicly available products and it's quite easy to unintentionally fall foul of some of the rules. Strictly speaking there isn't "training" as such in their use but the RDG and TfL produce hefty guidance documents in the use of travel facilities and the consequences of travel irregularities as well as any services where the use of staff travel is restricted but us staff need to know where to find these documents. The onus on reading these documents rests solely with the holder of those facilities, a bit like reading the Ts&Cs for anything that we all admit to not reading and then getting into trouble when an issue arises.

What happened to the OP could have happened to anybody with the same TfL staff pass; it could be many months before it's finally discovered that you've been using it wrong but only because you've been caught by a RPI. IMO, a little leeway could be shown in that what happened could have been genuine misunderstanding of what trains the pass could be used on because they share the same route (like c2c and LUL between Tower Hill/Fenchurch Street and Upminster). I'm not sure if the OP's pass is valid on the Lizzie from Shenfield or not as it's outside of the zonal area.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the touch in/out records only state a journey between Shenfield and Stratford but NOT on what train so the question is can GA/TfL only really do them for the trip they were caught using at the time and send a somewhat polite but firm reminder of what trains they should be using?

Another issue can be agreements between operators varying over time, or simply being misunderstood, as seems to have happened in the OP’s case. For example my operator has an agreement with Thameslink for residential travel, but not for leisure travel, and an agreement with LNER which permits the exact opposite. I know of people who’ve confused these and ended up being warned, albeit I don’t personally know anyone who has been written up for it.

 

[electrostar357]

My pass allows me to use the whole of the Elizabeth line, I agree about the leeway my way, more than happy to reimburse GA for the loss of revenue etc.

They can't prove what train I was on you are correct, I honestly don't know what's going to happen.

Did the RPI take down any of your details? If not then it's highly likely they've let you go with a rather close warning shot to your bow. It's also my understanding that RPIs can withdraw travel facilities there and then and filling out the necessary documentation (Travel Irregularity form or equivalent) for presentation to either their relevant department and/or your employer. The mention of a 1 year withdrawal of facilities may have been a passing comment about potential consequences rather than what would actually happen.

If they did, start making enquiries with your union rep but that's about it really until a letter arrives.

 

[Iscaredu]

Did the RPI take down any of your details? If not then it's highly likely they've let you go with a rather close warning shot to your bow. It's also my understanding that RPIs can withdraw travel facilities there and then and filling out the necessary documentation (Travel Irregularity form or equivalent) for presentation to either their relevant department and/or your employer. The mention of a 1 year withdrawal of facilities may have been a passing comment about potential consequences rather than what would actually happen.

If they did, start making enquiries with your union rep but that's about it really until a letter arrives.

Yes they took my details, and my pass which I didn't challenge but I've been told I shouldn't have let them take it by my rep but I wasn't about to try and pry it from there hand's.

Thank you for your comment.

 

[electrostar357]

Another issue can be agreements between operators varying over time, or simply being misunderstood, as seems to have happened in the OP’s case. For example my operator has an agreement with Thameslink for residential travel, but not for leisure travel, and an agreement with LNER which permits the exact opposite. I know of people who’ve confused these and ended up being warned, albeit I don’t personally know anyone who has been written up for it.

Oh gawd yes. These things do tend to be done on the quiet and hidden in staff briefings!

 

[Kite159]

They can't prove what train I was on you are correct, I honestly don't know what's going to happen.

However if you touch out at Stratford it won't take long for them to tally up the time differences between the GA services & Elizabeth line services

 

[Iscaredu]

However if you touch out at Stratford it won't take long for them to tally up the time differences between the GA services & Elizabeth line services

I touched out at Liverpool st but you are correct, will be keen to see what I get in the post.

 

[furlong]

I think the key to what will happen is how many other LU staff they have caught doing this recently.
Are you an isolated situation or is this still happening lots?

GA could pursue you personally for the fare (leading to negotiated out of court settlement). You were on a train without a valid ticket.
GA could pursue your employer for recompense.
Your employer could take action against you.

With the support of your union, I think the line that your initial training was inadequate is a reasonable one, particularly if yours is not an isolated case, and an outcome should be improvements to both initial information and reminders to existing staff who are registering touches at Stratford. This strikes me as an initial 'warning' situation rather than a 'sanction' one - a general situation that GA/LU need to discuss together. (Can the problem happen in reverse? GA staff incorrectly using Elizabeth line?)

 

[43066]

I think the key to what will happen is how many other LU staff they have caught doing this recently.
Are you an isolated situation or is this still happening lots?

This will be irrelevant, and in any case the number will be very low.

GA could pursue you personally for the fare (leading to negotiated out of court settlement). You were on a train without a valid ticket.
GA could pursue your employer for recompense.
Your employer could take action against you.

The first two are so unlikely that they can be discounted immediately. The third is a distinct possibility, and that’s what the OP will need to manage.

With the support of your union, I think the line that your initial training was inadequate is a reasonable one, particularly if yours is not an isolated case, and an outcome should be improvements to both initial information and reminders to existing staff who are registering touches at Stratford. This strikes me as an initial 'warning' situation rather than a 'sanction' one - a general situation that GA/LU need to discuss together. (Can the problem happen

Speak to the union for the strategy is the best advice, but it is down to staff members to use facilities correctly, so there’s no excuse, and management absolutely have you over a barrel if irregularities are reported - especially long-standing ones.

The approach LU take in this case will be to regard it as an internal matter of employee conduct, it certainly won’t be discussed with GA, and (subject to the rep’s advice on strategy), the OP blaming others, a lack of training etc. won’t wash, and may make things worse.

 

[Iscaredu]

I think the key to what will happen is how many other LU staff they have caught doing this recently.
Are you an isolated situation or is this still happening lots?

GA could pursue you personally for the fare (leading to negotiated out of court settlement). You were on a train without a valid ticket.
GA could pursue your employer for recompense.
Your employer could take action against you.

With the support of your union, I think the line that your initial training was inadequate is a reasonable one, particularly if yours is not an isolated case, and an outcome should be improvements to both initial information and reminders to existing staff who are registering touches at Stratford. This strikes me as an initial 'warning' situation rather than a 'sanction' one - a general situation that GA/LU need to discuss together. (Can the problem happen in reverse? GA staff incorrectly using Elizabeth line?)

Ofcourse I'd much rather them pursue me for the fares as the officer alluded to that being the case, but until I know anymore it's just all up in the air.

I agree it should be more obvious as to what trains you could board etc, even more so on parallel running lines as i imagine most members of staff would assume the gates opening meaning its all good.

Appreciate your take on it.

 

[electrostar357]

With the support of your union, I think the line that your initial training was inadequate is a reasonable one, particularly if yours is not an isolated case, and an outcome should be improvements to both initial information and reminders to existing staff who are registering touches at Stratford. This strikes me as an initial 'warning' situation rather than a 'sanction' one - a general situation that GA/LU need to discuss together. (Can the problem happen in reverse? GA staff incorrectly using Elizabeth line?)

Absolutely it can happen in reverse and I think this is a big issue when it comes to TfL operating services outside of their zonal pricing area. One can easily be misled to believe that because your TfL staff pass is valid on inter-available TfL/NR routes within the zonal area it MUST be fine to use on GA services to Shenfield, public Oystercards are valid on GA services to Shenfield after all.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Even after 20 years on the railway, the 'conditions of use' of staff travel facilities can be and is a minefield. The use of such facilities can be more restrictive than many publicly available products and it's quite easy to unintentionally fall foul of some of the rules. Strictly speaking there isn't "training" as such in their use but the RDG and TfL produce hefty guidance documents in the use of travel facilities and the consequences of travel irregularities as well as any services where the use of staff travel is restricted but us staff need to know where to find these documents. The onus on reading these documents rests solely with the holder of those facilities, a bit like reading the Ts&Cs for anything that we all admit to not reading and then getting into trouble when an issue arises.

In this particular case, the Staff Oyster card conditions of use comprise four pages, including the cover page, and details exactly what it can be used on. That same information is repeated in the London Underground Traffic Circular on an occasional basis (though I appreciate the OP may not see that, depending on which part of TfL they work for.)

For reference, for NR services that list is:

• Elizabeth Line: Throughout
• London Overground: Throughout
• Amersham - Marylebone
• Euston - Watford Junction
• Fenchurch Street - Upminster
• Finsbury Park - Moorgate (via Drayton Park)
• Kentish Town - Elephant & Castle / London Bridge
• Liverpool Street - Stratford

Correct me if I'm wrong, the touch in/out records only state a journey between Shenfield and Stratford but NOT on what train so the question is can GA/TfL only really do them for the trip they were caught using at the time and send a somewhat polite but firm reminder of what trains they should be using?

It depends how the station gatelines are configured. At the very least, Liverpool Street main station, Elizabeth Line (Blomfield Street) and London Underground will have different location codes. That may also be broken down into Liverpool Street (West Anglia), Liverpool Street (Great Eastern), Liverpool Street (Met), Liverpool Street LU (Main) and Liverpool Street (Central Line.)

It would be a fairly simple matter to determine what train(s) were taken by looking at journey times too, given Elizabeth Line services take around 45 minutes for Liverpool Street - Shenfield, whereas Greater Anglia ones take around 30 minutes.

 

[electrostar357]

In this particular case, the Staff Oyster card conditions of use comprise four pages, including the cover page, and details exactly what it can be used on. That same information is repeated in the London Underground Traffic Circular on an occasional basis (though I appreciate the OP may not see that, depending on which part of TfL they work for.)

For reference, for NR services that list is:

• Elizabeth Line: Throughout
• London Overground: Throughout
• Amersham - Marylebone
• Euston - Watford Junction
• Fenchurch Street - Upminster
• Finsbury Park - Moorgate (via Drayton Park)
• Kentish Town - Elephant & Castle / London Bridge
• Liverpool Street - Stratford

Only 4 pages? Woah! The RDG one is 48 pages.

Thanks for clarifying the second section, very helpful.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Only 4 pages? Woah! The RDG one is 48 pages.

Thanks for clarifying the second section, very helpful.

I suspect the version held by TfL Staff Travel is somewhat longer! That one's specifically aimed at staff who hold the pass in question.

 

[RJ]

In theory, as a member of staff you are responsible for the use/misuse of your pass. But, I have to ask, how much training and briefing is actually given to staff these days? Or are these things just issued willy-nilly like confetti without any training?
For you to be held responsible for any misuse, your employer would have to demonstrate you know where you can / cannot use it
I have a staff pass, and I come across staff who don't know that my pass is perfectly valid in the way I am using it

The pass is posted to the member of staff’s address. With it comes a letter that concisely sets out which National Rail routes it can be used on. Liverpool Street to Stratford is on there but it is not intimated anywhere official that it can be used east of Stratford on GA services.

100% my ignorance, most other situations where the pass wouldn't work is the gates wouldn't open.

No information is given in terms of where it works etc, when you start the pass is given to you and they just send you on your way.

It is valid at Shenfield, on Elizabeth Line services. Stopping them from working because they aren’t valid on other services is disruptive. They did this at Denmark Hill for years, preferring to increase the bottleneck at the tiny gateline which was often crowded with people and notorious for dangerous crowding. Although there was an argument for stopping people with generous concessions from trying to misuse them.

 

[furlong]

The first two are so unlikely that they can be discounted immediately.

I thought we saw a thread previously where the first was what happened. I.e. GA treated them the way they would any other passenger without a valid ticket - they wanted to be paid! (And the pass was a separate matter for their employer.)

 

[RJ]

Even after 20 years on the railway, the 'conditions of use' of staff travel facilities can be and is a minefield. The use of such facilities can be more restrictive than many publicly available products and it's quite easy to unintentionally fall foul of some of the rules. Strictly speaking there isn't "training" as such in their use but the RDG and TfL produce hefty guidance documents in the use of travel facilities and the consequences of travel irregularities as well as any services where the use of staff travel is restricted but us staff need to know where to find these documents. The onus on reading these documents rests solely with the holder of those facilities, a bit like reading the Ts&Cs for anything that we all admit to not reading and then getting into trouble when an issue arises.

What happened to the OP could have happened to anybody with the same TfL staff pass; it could be many months before it's finally discovered that you've been using it wrong but only because you've been caught by a RPI. IMO, a little leeway could be shown in that what happened could have been genuine misunderstanding of what trains the pass could be used on because they share the same route (like c2c and LUL between Tower Hill/Fenchurch Street and Upminster). I'm not sure if the OP's pass is valid on the Lizzie from Shenfield or not as it's outside of the zonal area.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the touch in/out records only state a journey between Shenfield and Stratford but NOT on what train so the question is can GA/TfL only really do them for the trip they were caught using at the time and send a somewhat polite but firm reminder of what trains they should be using?

We should be realistic to help the OP understand what’s happening. I’ve had a few TfL staff/nominee passes. TfL send these passes to staff through the post and with them, for at least the last 11 years, comes a concise letter listing the National Rail routes it can be used on the front page. Liverpool Street to Stratford is in that list. The list is also published on the staff intranet.

With respect to records, it would depend on if the OP was consistently beating the fastest possible journey time using the Elizabeth Line between Shenfield and Stratford. GA’s trains are typically 15-18 minutes quicker, not insignificant regardless of wherever the OP’s journey ends.

As for leniency, I wouldn’t expect it from that particular part of the network. It’s probably better to have no ticket at all than show a RPI an invalid pass. Handing it over is also a voluntary act - the pass is owned by TfL so there is no obligation to give it to a GA RPI.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

London Underground Traffic Circular on an occasional basis (though I appreciate the OP may not see that, depending on which part of TfL they work for.)

The OP says they're a train op. T/Ops have to sign for the TC.

Here is a FOI response I've found outlining the conditions of use:

https://foi.tfl.gov.uk/FOI-1604-2021/CoU-Staff%20nominee%20%20May%202015.pdf