TfW period return 8A restriction - why?

[Fermiboson]

Recently purchased a Holyhead - Wrexham General period off peak return (with railcard) from a ticket office, and in a moment of negligence forgot to clarify the ticket conditions. It says 8A on the ticket, which according to the NRE website is as follows:

Applicable Days​

Monday to Friday
Any day

Outward Travel​

No time restriction

Return Travel​

No time restriction.

Notes​

Break of journey is not permitted except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities.

Which is weird - there's no off peak time restriction, but unlike your typical flexible ticket, there is no break of journey available. First off I'm curious as to why.

Secondly, this does mess up my plan. I planned to have the option depending on time available/amount of delay encountered to possibly hop up the line to spend an hour at Llandudno (effectively breaking the journey at Llandudno Jct and purchasing a Llandudno Jct - Llandudno return) on the outward leg; on the return leg, I planned to take an AWC fast direct to Crewe, hence effectively breaking the journey at Chester, after which I have rover ticket validity. Apparently this is not going to be possible with this ticket. What is the cheapest way to recover this plan?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very, very unlikely anyone will care.

 

[30907]

To your original question: the restriction allows Avanti (and its predecessors back to ICWC) to offer an Off-peak fare from their remoter stations without undercutting the time restrictions that apply from stations nearer London.
A similar (not identical) rule applies from (e.g) Lancaster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To your original question: the restriction allows Avanti (and its predecessors back to ICWC) to offer an Off-peak fare from their remoter stations without undercutting the time restrictions that apply from stations nearer London.
A similar (not identical) rule applies from (e.g) Lancaster.

That isn't the reason for 8A tickets. These existed back from the days when Regional Railways had the Saver as the most expensive unrestricted ticket on most routes, 8A just meant unrestricted and the standard "no BoJ on outward, allowed on return" was in place. I suspect the reason they did this was to prevent people using Standard Open (Anytime) Returns as de facto season tickets until clipped, as these were valid a month in both directions.

Then at some point 8A gained return break of journey restrictions. Given the layout of the old manual restriction table it's not impossible that this was actually an administrative error, but nobody ever fixed it.

And so we are where we are.

It is true that Avanti priced tickets to past Chester/past Preston have an outward BoJ restriction for the reason you state, but those aren't 8A.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The TfW 8A tickets are often the only return tickets available, so there's no choice of CDR or Anytime tickets which would offer BoJ.
I think it's TfW's way of "simplifying" their ticketing, and they are cheaper than the old Anytimes, but they sneaked in (or forgot to remove) the BoJ restriction.
But I agree I've seen no sign of anybody trying to police BoJ, like they would for Advances.
There's often no higher fare they could make you pay.

 

[Starmill]

Recently purchased a Holyhead - Wrexham General period off peak return (with railcard) from a ticket office, and in a moment of negligence forgot to clarify the ticket conditions. It says 8A on the ticket, which according to the NRE website is as follows:

Which is weird - there's no off peak time restriction, but unlike your typical flexible ticket, there is no break of journey available. First off I'm curious as to why.

Secondly, this does mess up my plan. I planned to have the option depending on time available/amount of delay encountered to possibly hop up the line to spend an hour at Llandudno (effectively breaking the journey at Llandudno Jct and purchasing a Llandudno Jct - Llandudno return) on the outward leg; on the return leg, I planned to take an AWC fast direct to Crewe, hence effectively breaking the journey at Chester, after which I have rover ticket validity. Apparently this is not going to be possible with this ticket. What is the cheapest way to recover this plan?

If you're concerned, I would suggest that you speak to the conductor and show them your tickets, I guess this will be the relevant Off Peak Return portion Wrexham General to Holyhead and relevant Anytime Day Return portion Llandudno Jn to Llandudno? I think they'll be very happy to give you permission to set off as such on that journey to Llandudno, if that's what you want to do.

In the incredibly unlikely event of being pulled up on it you'd probably just be told not to do it again. If there's a ticket inspection between Llandudno Jn and Llandudno nobody could even know you were breaking your journey.

 

[Class800]

In England on a TOC other than TfW no one will know or care

 

[30907]

Then at some point 8A gained return break of journey restrictions. Given the layout of the old manual restriction table it's not impossible that this was actually an administrative error, but nobody ever fixed it.

It is true that Avanti priced tickets to past Chester/past Preston have an outward BoJ restriction for the reason you state, but those aren't 8A.

Yes, apologies - as you probably realise, I was thinking of Avanti London fares and the OP was referencing a TfL one.
Memo to self, read the question!

 

[Fermiboson]

Thank you for all the answers. I’ll be playing it by ear, then.

 

[Fermiboson]

Update 08/02:
Staff at Great Malvern have informed me that since there is no ticket to excess to the only option is to get singles - quite out of the question of course as Llandudno Jct to Holyhead is I believe 12 pounds. I suppose this is a kind of “ask for forgiveness not permission” thing.

Edit: should I risk asking again at Hereford, where it’s actually TfW? Or is that too much risk of a strict “no, and I’ll be informing the train guard to make sure you don’t”?

 

[Starmill]

Update 08/02:
Staff at Great Malvern have informed me that since there is no ticket to excess to the only option is to get singles - quite out of the question of course as Llandudno Jct to Holyhead is I believe 12 pounds. I suppose this is a kind of “ask for forgiveness not permission” thing.

Edit: should I risk asking again at Hereford, where it’s actually TfW? Or is that too much risk of a strict “no, and I’ll be informing the train guard to make sure you don’t”?

It's difficult to see what you'd have to gain from asking at the ticket office.

 

[Fermiboson]

It's difficult to see what you'd have to gain from asking at the ticket office.

Fair point. I prefer to do everything by the book and with a record, having been scared straight so to speak by the litany of disasters in the disputes and prosecutions subforum.

 

[Haywain]

Edit: should I risk asking again at Hereford, where it’s actually TfW? Or is that too much risk of a strict “no, and I’ll be informing the train guard to make sure you don’t”?

There's no point in asking at another ticket office, they can't make a fare appear.

Fair point. I prefer to do everything by the book and with a record, having been scared straight so to speak by the litany of disasters in the disputes and prosecutions subforum.

I would suggest that you read less and experience more - the railway really isn't as hostile as you might think.

 

[Fermiboson]

I would suggest that you read less and experience more - the railway really isn't as hostile as you might think.

Also fair. Thank you for the advice.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I would suggest that you read less and experience more - the railway really isn't as hostile as you might think.

This is very true. Most onboard staff are really good & understanding. Yes, there's always a rogue one, but most honest passengers experience no issues at all. The odd occasion on this forum is a fraction of a percent of travellers. And even then most of the time it's resolved.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's difficult to see what you'd have to gain from asking at the ticket office.

I think every time I've asked at a ticket office for something that bends the rules a little bit the answer has either been "No" or "You'll have to ask the guard". I think upon asking guards my success rate is around 95%+. There's hardly ever any point asking ticket offices when its something that relates to on train issues.

 

[Starmill]

I would suggest that you read less and experience more - the railway really isn't as hostile as you might think.

I can understand why some people feel the need to be risk-averse; I often feel that way myself, and to a limited extent it can be helpful, for example if you're using pay as you go from an ungated station, you would be less likely to genuinely forget to touch in. But overall, I do strongly agree with this point.

I think every time I've asked at a ticket office for something that bends the rules a little bit the answer has either been "No" or "You'll have to ask the guard". I think upon asking guards my success rate is around 95%+. There's hardly ever any point asking ticket offices when its something that relates to on train issues.

Exactly so.

 

[Stan_Butler]

I’m planning to use a Llandudno Junction - Bolton return (as kindly suggested on another thread on here) for the following journey. Llandudno Junction - Liverpool, break journey for a few hours in Liverpool then Liverpool - Manchester, Stop short and have a few hours in Manchester then return direct Manchester - Llandudno Junction. However the ticket has restrictions code 8A, so would it be possible to make such a journey with the ticket? Thanks.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I’m planning to use a Llandudno Junction - Bolton return (as kindly suggested on another thread on here) for the following journey. Llandudno Junction - Liverpool, break journey for a few hours in Liverpool then Liverpool - Manchester, Stop short and have a few hours in Manchester then return direct Manchester - Llandudno Junction. However the ticket has restrictions code 8A, so would it be possible to make such a journey with the ticket? Thanks.

No, you can't break your journey in Liverpool, and no advice can be given to do so.

Whether this is detected or enforced is a different matter, especially as you cross through Liverpool.

However, Merseyrail are something of a lose cannon at times - and Northern are quite enforcement happy between Liverpool and Manchester, it's certainly not impossible that you'll come unstuck.

You're also technically breaking your journey in Manchester, which you can't do - you are supposed to continue on to Bolton.

A Cheshire Day Ranger at £29.80 and a £25.10 Llandudno to Chester return may be better anyway, and allows travel via Liverpool.

 

[RJ]

Fair point. I prefer to do everything by the book and with a record, having been scared straight so to speak by the litany of disasters in the disputes and prosecutions subforum.

Bearing in mind the greater majority of cases in there are from people choosing not to take the responsibility to travel with a valid ticket, you really shouldn’t worry about it. You’re not evading your fare here.

 

[Stan_Butler]

Thanks @Tazi Hupefi, a day ranger and a Llandudno Junction - Chester return looks like the best option.

 

[Llandudno]

Thanks @Tazi Hupefi, a day ranger and a Llandudno Junction - Chester return looks like the best option.

Perhaps check out advance tickets between Llandudno Junction and Chester, provided you know which trains you are going to use…?

 

[redreni]

No, you can't break your journey in Liverpool, and no advice can be given to do so.

Whether this is detected or enforced is a different matter, especially as you cross through Liverpool.

However, Merseyrail are something of a lose cannon at times - and Northern are quite enforcement happy between Liverpool and Manchester, it's certainly not impossible that you'll come unstuck.

You're also technically breaking your journey in Manchester, which you can't do - you are supposed to continue on to Bolton.

A Cheshire Day Ranger at £29.80 and a £25.10 Llandudno to Chester return may be better anyway, and allows travel via Liverpool.

You would, of course, be able to pass through the barriers at Liverpool to use the station facilities. There's no time limit on that as far as I'm aware.

At Manchester too, as far as I can see. I can see that a dim view might be taken of somebody getting off a train and stepping back a train or three when they could have just continued straight through to their destination, but this would appear to be permitted by the wording of the 8A restriction.

It tells you that you can't break your journey then it gives two (completely redundant) exceptions - changing trains or using station facilities. Neither of those constitutes a break of journey anyway, but the use of "or" would appear to suggest that the right to use the facilities at a station is independent of any particular need to change trains. Nothing to say the passenger can't change trains at Manchester even if they don't need to, if they feel like using the station facilities. As they're permitted to do anyway and expressly permitted to do under the 8A restriction.

 

[Krokodil]

You would, of course, be able to pass through the barriers at Liverpool to use the station facilities

As you're changing trains, and trains from Chester seldom use the low-numbered platforms (when they do, it's usually on a strike day) you'd need to pass through the barriers once to access a Chat Moss service anyway.

 

[185143]

You would, of course, be able to pass through the barriers at Liverpool to use the station facilities. There's no time limit on that as far as I'm aware.

At Manchester too, as far as I can see. I can see that a dim view might be taken of somebody getting off a train and stepping back a train or three when they could have just continued straight through to their destination, but this would appear to be permitted by the wording of the 8A restriction.

It tells you that you can't break your journey then it gives two (completely redundant) exceptions - changing trains or using station facilities. Neither of those constitutes a break of journey anyway, but the use of "or" would appear to suggest that the right to use the facilities at a station is independent of any particular need to change trains. Nothing to say the passenger can't change trains at Manchester even if they don't need to, if they feel like using the station facilities. As they're permitted to do anyway and expressly permitted to do under the 8A restriction.

The Wetherspoon pub counts as "Station facilities". No further comment.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks @Tazi Hupefi, a day ranger and a Llandudno Junction (LLJ) - Chester return looks like the best option.

The Cheshire Day Ranger is valid from Shotton (after 0900 M-F), so you only need add a LLJ-Shotton return which is £20.40.
The first weekday valid train for the ranger would appear to be the 0852 from LLJ (the 0834 skips Shotton).
The Cheshire Day Ranger doesn't reach Bolton, however, if you had any intention to actually go beyond Manchester.
You should be able to buy the ranger at LLJ.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/2022-10/Cheshire%20Day%20Ranger%20map%20NEW.pdf

 

[Watershed]

The Cheshire Day Ranger is valid from Shotton (after 0900 M-F), so you only need add a LLJ-Shotton return which is £20.40.
The first weekday valid train for the ranger would appear to be the 0852 from LLJ (the 0834 skips Shotton).
The Cheshire Day Ranger doesn't reach Bolton, however, if you had any intention to actually go beyond Manchester.
You should be able to buy the ranger at LLJ.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/sites/default/files/2022-10/Cheshire%20Day%20Ranger%20map%20NEW.pdf

Taking the 08:34 from LLJ would be fine - non-stop splits are permitted when combining a ranger, rover or other area-based product with another ticket. The 08:34 departs Flint (the station before Shotton) after 09:00 so it's unambiguously valid in terms of the time restriction.

 

[Lewisham2221]

That isn't the reason for 8A tickets. These existed back from the days when Regional Railways had the Saver as the most expensive unrestricted ticket on most routes, 8A just meant unrestricted and the standard "no BoJ on outward, allowed on return" was in place. I suspect the reason they did this was to prevent people using Standard Open (Anytime) Returns as de facto season tickets until clipped, as these were valid a month in both directions.

Basically, yes.

Then at some point 8A gained return break of journey restrictions. Given the layout of the old manual restriction table it's not impossible that this was actually an administrative error, but nobody ever fixed it.

And so we are where we are.

It is true that Avanti priced tickets to past Chester/past Preston have an outward BoJ restriction for the reason you state, but those aren't 8A.

I expect the BoJ restriction is to basically (a slightly clumsy way to) enforce the same on the return leg i.e only valid on the day that you commence the leg.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Taking the 08:34 from LLJ would be fine - non-stop splits are permitted when combining a ranger, rover or other area-based product with another ticket. The 08:34 departs Flint (the station before Shotton) after 09:00 so it's unambiguously valid in terms of the time restriction.

Yes, I've just had a look at NRCoT 14.3 to check.
I was under the impression that 1-day day area tickets didn't qualify for the "not calling" combination - so that was wrong, sorry!