Thameslink Penalty Fare - I'd be grateful for your help please!

[DT2024]

Hi all,
I had a very stressful and unpleasant experience on my trip into work yesterday morning, having been issued a Penalty Fare Notice in circumstances which I feel are really unfair. A bit of a vent, but I want to say that my stress was compounded by the fact that my planned connection on that trip was already cancelled (so I was already going to be late into work), and the night previously every direct train was cancelled for 4 hours in a row, so my only option was a convoluted journey that took 50 minutes longer than usual and didn't get me home until after midnight. I think it's fair to say that I feel so aggrieved that given that service, and what I put up with on Thameslink services almost every day I was then being made to feel like a dishonest, fare dodging passenger with what felt like no recourse! Anyway, I have drafted an Appeal which I set out below (that includes the circumstances in which I was charged a Penalty Fare, so I have not repeated them here). I am determined to appeal, and would be grateful for any comments on what I have set out below so that I might improve prospects, please. Thanks so much in advance!

"On 27 March 2024 I travelled on the off peak Thameslink service departing 9.25am, final destination City Thameslink. At 9.35am, I was given a Penalty Fare Notice, although I held, and produced to the ticketing officer, a ticket for an off peak return journey in the correct fare that I was required to pay to take that journey into London that day.
The circumstances of this ticket purchase and penalty fare are as follows:

• I arrived at Baldock Station in time to catch the 9.25am train from Baldock (final destination City Thameslink), as the train was pulling in.
• I started purchasing my off-peak return ticket while on the platform (using the Trainline app). That would have been at c.9.24am or 9.25am. Between selecting my ticket and going through to the payment method, my phone automatically connected to Thameslink’s WiFi network, from the train pulling in. That WiFi network does not have signal required to operate the Trainline app. I’ve attached a screenshot of the error message – taken later, at the time of writing this appeal. There was therefore a delay in being able to purchase my ticket.
• I therefore turned off the WiFi on my phone, repeated the exercise of purchasing whilst on the platform/stepping onto/on the train, by which point, and by the time the transaction had completed, the time had obviously ticked over from 9.25am, to 9.26am.
• c.10 minutes later (at 9.35am), I was issued a penalty fare on the basis that the time of my ticket was 9.26am, and the train had departed Baldock at 9.25am.
• I wasn’t aware that this was, or could have been an issue. I was very confused that it was and really distressed. I explained this, and how I had purchased my ticket, to the employee issuing my penalty fare. It was disregarded.
• What I had purchased was a valid ticket with the correct fare for the journey that I was taking. There is no question of not buying a ticket; or not buying the correct ticket.
• Thameslink publicises that it uses the penalty fare scheme to ensure that “all passenger journeys made with us are paid for”. It explains that it is for “ticketless travel and fraud” and because such travel “is unfair for our honest, paying passengers”.
• In this case, it has been decided that a minute (if that) of travel is sufficient to classify me as a “ticketless traveller”, and by implication, a dishonest passenger, such that it would be fair to charge me the full, correct price for my journey PLUS the full penalty fare. In total £146.70.
• Issuing a penalty fare in the circumstances I have described here is completely out of kilter with the policy underlying the scheme. Having reviewed the relevant instruments, including the National Rail Conditions of Travel, I do not see how this is grounds for a penalty fare notice to have been issued at all.
• In any case, I appeal the penalty fare notice including on the grounds that there are compelling reasons why, in these particular circumstances including those outlined above, I should not be liable to pay the penalty fare."

 

[Pushpit]

I am very sympathetic to your arguments, given there was a 10 minute gap between purchase and the ticket control. From what I can gather, some RPIs would let it slide, others clearly would not, and you got one of the latter. The basis for the requirement to purchase before boarding is "how do you deal with people who only buy tickets the moment they see an RPI working their way down the aisle?". So 2 minutes isn't enough, but is 10 minutes enough? The usual advice is to pay at the first opportunity, appeal 3 times over, but don't ignore it. The one thing I've not seen anyone do is to pay under protest and then use the small claims channel to reclaim the costs of this, on the basis of no material loss to the railway and no intent to avoid payment. But that still doesn't get around the need to have a ticket before boarding.

The experts will give a more forensic answer, for example relating to the destination station on the ticket, so further details will be needed, but a copy of the Notice minus personal details and reference number is a start point.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I think your approach is worth a try, but you need to know that there’s no guarantee that it will work in that as @kacper pointed out (EDIT but which has now been tidied away) the requirement is to hold a ticket at the instant of boarding the train. I suspect that other people will be along shortly to suggest some technical grounds of appeal that if pursued to the final point may be successful.

If you haven’t already spotted this on the notice that you were issued, there’s some (mildly) good news that the penalty is reduced from £100 to £50 (in both cases plus the fare) if paid within 21 days - and the clock on the 21 days stops while an appeal is being considered.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Appeal, they might agree with you. But, as per kacper, it seems to me the Penalty Fare is correctly issued. Intent is not relevant: the Penalty Fare arrangement is solely about whether you held a valid ticket or not, not what your intentions were at earlier stages before the inspection.

If you are unable to buy a ticket from an app before departure, unfortunately you have to wait for the next train. But you can obviously lodge Delay Repay claims galore for the various TL delays in recent weeks.

 

[AlterEgo]

Please post the notice with your details redacted. Contrary to earlier posts, purchasing a ticket on board a train even if facilities existed at the origin station is *NOT* a valid reason to issue a Penalty Fare.

You presented a valid ticket to the RPI - the time of its purchase has no bearing on its validity whatsoever - and while other options might have been open to them at that point owing to your late purchase, a Penalty Fare is not one of them. We need to see the reason they gave on the notice, as well as the full notice for context.

 

[DT2024]

I am very sympathetic to your arguments, given there was a 10 minute gap between purchase and the ticket control. From what I can gather, some RPIs would let it slide, others clearly would not, and you got one of the latter. The basis for the requirement to purchase before boarding is "how do you deal with people who only buy tickets the moment they see an RPI working their way down the aisle?". So 2 minutes isn't enough, but is 10 minutes enough? The usual advice is to pay at the first opportunity, appeal 3 times over, but don't ignore it. The one thing I've not seen anyone do is to pay under protest and then use the small claims channel to reclaim the costs of this, on the basis of no material loss to the railway and no intent to avoid payment. But that still doesn't get around the need to have a ticket before boarding.

The experts will give a more forensic answer, for example relating to the destination station on the ticket, so further details will be needed, but a copy of the Notice minus personal details and reference number is a start point.

Thank you. I can add those details. I’m grateful for your comment and for you taking the time to give it. Can I please impose again to check one point (if you know): if I pay, can I still appeal (and if the appeal is allowed, that will result in a refund)? I don’t want the payment to void my right to appeal and it isn’t clear to me whether that’s the case. Thanks.

 

[transportphoto]

We’ve discussed this before but there’s always likely to be a technical appeal point - e.g. whether the Penalty Fare posters at the station are compliant with the legislation requirements.

 

[AlterEgo]

We’ve discussed this before but there’s always likely to be a technical appeal point - e.g. whether the Penalty Fare posters at the station are compliant with the legislation requirements.

The most obvious appeal point is that the passenger presented a valid travel ticket and that is not in dispute. At the time of inspection the passenger presented a valid travel ticket, that's it, done - appeal succeeds! Penalty Fares cannot "penalise" the indiscretion of previously walking onto the train without it and purchasing it while sitting down after departure. The passenger may be reported for prosecution, yes, but the RPI has chosen not to do this, and has made a mistake in taking the wrong choice and issuing a Penalty Fare - which also, once appealed, statue bars the OP from prosecution. Too bad for the RPI I guess.

 

[Haywain]

The basis for the requirement to purchase before boarding is "how do you deal with people who only buy tickets the moment they see an RPI working their way down the aisle?".

The basis for the requirement is that the law says that you are committing an offence by failing to do so, except in specific circumstances where no facilities to do so have been provided at the station where the journey commenced (which I am sure would not have applied at Baldock).

 

[jamiearmley]

This is possibly off topic : but is the off peak return valid at 09:25? A quick look on BRFARES shows most off peaks for that flow as not valid until 10.00 am. It's outside my area, so I don't claim to know : and it wouldn't be a valid reason to issue a penalty in any case as far as I'm aware - but is the ticket invalid in any case due to beginning journey in peak time?

 

[MrJeeves]

A quick look on BRFARES shows most off peaks for that flow as not valid until 10.00 am.

The text on the list of fares doesn't match the actual restriction (well being pedantic, it does as the ticket is valid on any service after 10am, but is also valid on some before 10am too):

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 which arrive at London Terminals before 10:00.

 

[DT2024]

Thanks all for the replies so far. I’m adding my PFN to this post with QR code and my name erased (they exist in the notice and are correct). It’s in three parts as it’s a long ticket. The reason given is: “electronic ticket - not valid”.

 

[JBuchananGB]

In this case the Off-peak restriction is in effect "not to arrive in London before 10.00" The 9.25 from Baldock is due in London at 10.04. So an off-peak ticket is valid. The focus should be on whether the RPI correctly issued a Penalty Fare to a person holding a valid ticket.

 

[DT2024]

This is possibly off topic : but is the off peak return valid at 09:25? A quick look on BRFARES shows most off peaks for that flow as not valid until 10.00 am. It's outside my area, so I don't claim to know : and it wouldn't be a valid reason to issue a penalty in any case as far as I'm aware - but is the ticket invalid in any case due to beginning journey in peak time?

Thanks. But no, as others have said, off peak is the correct fare for this train. It’s based on the arrival time, and this train arrives at London terminals after 10am. (If buying a ticket at the ticket office, a passenger will be issued an off peak for this train).

 

[PaulJ]

Here’s the station entrance. Of course, I can’t be certain how up to date the picture is, but the penalty fare poster at the entrance is prominently displayed.

 

[AlterEgo]

In this case the Off-peak restriction is in effect "not to arrive in London before 10.00" The 9.25 from Baldock is due in London at 10.04. So an off-peak ticket is valid. The focus should be on whether the RPI correctly issued a Penalty Fare to a person holding a valid ticket.

Indeed. The ticket was valid, and was so when presented. There is no dispute about this.

@DT2024 - this makes your appeal simple. You merely enclose the ticket and the booking confirmation with timestamp, showing it was purchased well before inspection, and explain plainly that the ticket was valid for the journey being made.

Other posters will be along later I expect to explain better how to set out the appeal in a consistent way, referencing the exact Regulations, but this isn as open and shut as it gets. The ticket was valid, and that is that.

As an extra point of potential appeal, can anyone work out what the fare element of the PF, of £20.70 is for here please? I'm at a loss.

 

[DT2024]

Indeed. The ticket was valid, and was so when presented. There is no dispute about this.

@DT2024 - this makes your appeal simple. You merely enclose the ticket and the booking confirmation with timestamp, showing it was purchased well before inspection, and explain plainly that the ticket was valid for the journey being made.

Other posters will be along later I expect to explain better how to set out the appeal in a consistent way, referencing the exact Regulations, but this isn as open and shut as it gets. The ticket was valid, and that is that.

As an extra point of potential appeal, can anyone work out what the fare element of the PF, of £20.70 is for here please? I'm at a loss.

Thanks so much. I’ll give this a go. I’m sure they’ll lean on some terms and conditions. But I have to try.
To answer your question: the £20.70 is the price of a single one way ticket for the journey I was taking (in fact it is £1 off: it’s £20.70 to London terminals which run to until Kings X, and should be £21.70 to City Thameslink which is the station the RPI made the PFN out to, but that is the basis of the charge).

Here’s the station entrance. Of course, I can’t be certain how up to date the picture is, but the penalty fare poster at the entrance is prominently displayed.

In case it’s useful to anyone else later looking at this, I agree with you. There is a notice displayed at the station. I’m not trying to claim relief for any other reason than what happened: but I do appreciate you having a look into it.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks so much. I’ll give this a go. I’m sure they’ll lean on some terms and conditions. But I have to try.
To answer your question: the £20.70 is the price of a single one way ticket for the journey I was taking (in fact it is £1 off: it’s £20.70 to London terminals which run to until Kings X, and should be £21.70 to City Thameslink which is the station the RPI made the PFN out to, but that is the basis of the charge).

Actually, it should be issued to the next station at which the train calls (would that be, from Hitchin - Stevenage?) unless you specifically request it, which is another element of appeal.

As a point of note - you have been fortunate here. They would have been entitled to report you for prosecution, and really that is what they ought to have done if they felt you should have been penalised. It is an offence to board without a valid ticket. However, fortunately for you, they have been incompetent, not least in deciding to issue a Penalty Fare where we can be certain your appeal will succeed, as at the time of the stop, you did present a valid ticket. As I mentioned earlier, appealing this Penalty Fare will statute bar them for prosecuting you for this incident.

 

[DT2024]

Actually, it should be issued to the next station at which the train calls (would that be, from Hitchin - Stevenage?) unless you specifically request it, which is another element of appeal.

Thanks. Interesting. Yes it would have been Hitchin - Stevenage.

Yes. I totally understand the point you make. It’s safe to say it won’t happen again. I’m honestly not trying to beat the system, but if there are valid grounds to appeal then I am going to exercise that right to do so (I think that, at least, is fair). I am grateful for everyone’s comments.

 

[Brissle Girl]

There is another technical appeal point, which is that the Penalty Fare notice is almost certainly non-compliant. If you can take another picture which clearly shows the wording that can be clarified.

So if I've got this correct:-
The ticket was valid, so the PF should not have been issued.
The fare to the stated destination was incorrect
The OP was not given the option of a fare to the next station the train called at.
It's quite likely that the PF notice is non-compliant.

... any of which should strike out the PF.

 

[DT2024]

There is another technical appeal point, which is that the Penalty Fare notice is almost certainly non-compliant. If you can take another picture which clearly shows the wording that can be clarified.

So if I've got this correct:-
The ticket was valid, so the PF should not have been issued.
The fare to the stated destination was incorrect
The OP was not given the option of a fare to the next station the train called at.
It's quite likely that the PF notice is non-compliant.

... any of which should strike out the PF.

Thanks, that is all correct as far as I can see and recall from yesterday. I'm not sure there is any other wording on the PFN that I could photograph but let me know if you think there is something that could be helpful. I've added a photograph of the "evidence" included with my PFN in the online portal, FWIW. But I don't think that adds any information that I've not already shared but it might be useful for people to see as there's no doubt some more 'intel' on here that those in the know might find useful. As always, thanks to all for your help.

 

[Western Sunset]

I'm a tad confused. The OP said they dep Baldock at 0925.
The only trains around then are:
9S17 TL Cambridge - B'ton (sched dep 0916; act 0915.75)
2C10 GN Cambridge - KX (sched de 0925; act 0926)

So if they were on the 0925 dep, it left a minute late - same time as on the ticket.

 

[DT2024]

I'm a tad confused. The OP said they dep Baldock at 0925.
The only trains around then are:
9S17 TL Cambridge - B'ton (sched dep 0916; act 0915.75)
2C10 GN Cambridge - KX (sched de 0925; act 0926)

So if they were on the 0925 dep, it left a minute late - same time as on the ticket.

Thank you. But I think in this (rare) instance the train left on time yesterday, 27 March. At least that is the info I have from what I can find online.

 

[transportphoto]

2C10 GN Cambridge - KX (sched de 0925; act 0926)

So if they were on the 0925 dep, it left a minute late - same time as on the ticket.

The TTK screenshot shows they were on a Cambridge to Kings Cross service.

 

[Western Sunset]

But they said they departed at 0925 - hence my confusion.

 

[MrJeeves]

It did indeed depart at 0926

Realtime Trains | 0855 Cambridge to London Kings Cross | 27/03/2024

Real-time train running information for 0855 departure from Cambridge to London Kings Cross on 27/03/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Brissle Girl]

But they said they departed at 0925 - hence my confusion.

That’s understandable given it departed so close to its booked time.

But I think that gives another reason to dispute it - the departure time was the same as the ticket was purchased.

 

[DT2024]

Handy! Thank you!! I apologise for not mentioning this earlier. I had checked other websites all showing 9.25am (and the RPI told me it departed on time...with a minute in it I took them at their word).
Sorry, this is all a bit ridiculous now (and the argument can still be made that in fact, I got on the train having not finalised the transaction, which is my lack of judgement I suppose, but, really...).
Perhaps it's not a surprise that the appeal page is limited in its word count.

 

[74A]

According to Real time trains that train departed at 0926 so you had a valid ticket at the time the train left.

 

[Western Sunset]

Though the OP stated they were going to City Thameslink. Were they actually on 9S17?