Thameslink Penalty Fare - I'd be grateful for your help please!

[MrJeeves]

Though the OP stated they were going to City Thameslink. Were they actually on 9S17?

I think the ttk image above is pretty clear cut saying they're on a service to Kings Cross... Perfectly valid to walk across to St Pancras from there to continue to CTK, but would be good to hear OP's planned journey.

 

[DT2024]

Though the OP stated they were going to City Thameslink. Were they actually on 9S17?

No. I was on the 2C10, scheduled for 9.25am departure. I change at Kings Cross down to City Thameslink (still on a National Rail Thameslink operated service, not underground). There are other options to change at earlier stations but that is the route I took. The ticket I have is valid for that journey.

I think the ttk image above is pretty clear cut saying they're on a service to Kings Cross... Perfectly valid to walk across to St Pancras from there to continue to CTK, but would be good to hear OP's planned journey.

Yes. Thank you. This is the exact planned (and taken!) journey yesterday.

 

[Western Sunset]

No. I was on the 2C10, scheduled for 9.25am departure. I change at Kings Cross down to City Thameslink (still on a National Rail Thameslink operated service, not underground). There are other options to change at earlier stations but that is the route I took. The ticket I have is valid for that journey.

That's good. As I mentioned above, it left a minute late - same time as your ticket. Therefore you didn't purchase it after it left. Well that's how I read it...

 

[AlterEgo]

That's good. As I mentioned above, it left a minute late - same time as your ticket. Therefore you didn't purchase it after it left. Well that's how I read it...

It's irrelevant exactly when the OP purchased the ticket, because they purchased it before inspection.

 

[DT2024]

It's irrelevant exactly when the OP purchased the ticket, because they purchased it before inspection.

That's true and I appreciate you pointing that out both now and earlier, but what I would say is: the only reason I was given (and the basis on which the RPI thought he was entitled to issue a PFN, even if he was no so entitled) was because the ticket was purchased a minute after the train departed...and if factually that isn't true...it's not great from the start. The whole debacle yesterday really shouldn't have happened, I feel.
Anyway you've all been extremely extremely helpful. I know where I went wrong for next time, and what I won't do in the future, but I also do plan to appeal and use this information. I am really really grateful to everyone sparing their time and knowledge.

 

[AlterEgo]

That's true and I appreciate you pointing that out both now and earlier, but what I would say is: the only reason I was given (and the basis on which the RPI thought he was entitled to issue a PFN, even if he was no so entitled) was because the ticket was purchased a minute after the train departed...and if factually that isn't true...it's not great from the start. The whole debacle yesterday really shouldn't have happened, I feel.
Anyway you've all been extremely extremely helpful. I know where I went wrong for next time, and what I won't do in the future, but I also do plan to appeal and use this information. I am really really grateful to everyone sparing their time and knowledge.

I do encourage you to wait until a few more posters turn up - @furlong and @Watershed are good at aligning your appeal with the regulations so there can be no wiggle room. They will probably suggest wording which is watertight.

 

[DT2024]

I do encourage you to wait until a few more posters turn up - @furlong and @Watershed are good at aligning your appeal with the regulations so there can be no wiggle room. They will probably suggest wording which is watertight.

Ah. Thank you. I appreciate that lots. I will give it a bit of time. Thanks!

 

[island]

Tickets need to be purchased before boarding the train, so you committed an offence by joining the train without having completed your purchase.

A penalty fare was not however properly issued, as it was issued with a destination that the train you were on didn't call at.

An appeal should be upheld.

 

[sheff1]

Perhaps it's not a surprise that the appeal page is limited in its word count.

You don't need a wordy appeal in this case (although if you did you should be able to attach a PDF with more detail). As alterego explaind in post #16, the appeal is very simple - you produced a valid ticket hence the Penalty Fare was issued incorrectly. There is no need to include the extraneous detail outlined in post #1.

The Regulations can be found here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/contents
The relevant parts of the Regulations in this case are

4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket.

and

5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare.

You produced a ticket as required by Regulation 4 and therefore no penalty fare may be charged under Regulation 5.

***********

People have highlighted various other reasons why, if a PF was apppropriate (as explained it was't), the one you received could be successfully appealed but I see no merit in mentioning them as the simple fact is that no PF should have been issued in the first place. If you do want to add further reasons then, as previously mentioned, other posters should be able to suggest appropriate wording.

 

[DT2024]

You don't need a wordy appeal in this case (although if you did you should be able to attach a PDF with more detail). As alterego explaind in post #16, the appeal is very simple - you produced a valid ticket hence the Penalty Fare was issued incorrectly. There is no need to include the extraneous detail outlined in post #1.

The Regulations can be found here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/contents
The relevant parts of the Regulations in this case are

and

You produced a ticket as required by Regulation 4 and therefore no penalty fare may be charged under Regulation 5.

***********

People have highlighted various other reasons why, if a PF was apppropriate (as explained it was't), the one you received could be successfully appealed but I see no merit in mentioning them as the simple fact is that no PF should have been issued in the first place. If you do want to add further reasons then, as previously mentioned, other posters should be able to suggest appropriate wording.

Yes, understood, thanks. This is all fair enough and you’re right (as I now understand from today). It can be short.

 

[furlong]

A penalty fare was not however properly issued, as it was issued with a destination that the train you were on didn't call at.

Yes, understood, thanks. This is all fair enough and you’re right (as I now understand from today). It can be short.

You need to include ALL the reasons at FIRST appeal to maximise your chances. There is no restriction on the size of the appeal - if the system they give you tries to truncate what you want to write, use an attachment.

We have seen appeals bodies claim when rejecting appeals (using what looks like cut-and-paste) that a ticket bought after boarding is invalid, so you'll have to spell out that argument in a way that doesn't let them send that response.

However island's point is probably the one I would list second (after the valid ticket one) as it's the simplest to prove - the train did not stop at City Thameslink (and the fare to Kings Cross was less so doesn't match) therefore the PF cannot have been issued in accordance with regulation 5(5A) etc. In short, the amount of the penalty imposed by the company upon you is higher than the maximum that the regulations permit.

Note that under the (current flawed) regulations, even if the appeal is upheld and the wrong fare was used on the notice, the fare element of the PF remains payable. Appeals bodies only have the power to cancel the PENALTY element of the Penalty Fare (£50 or £100) - never the fare element. In circumstances like yours where the correct fare was already paid, normally the train company will agree to waive their claim to it, but if they don't, it's easier for you if you have NOT yet paid. (They'd have to persuade a civil court the money was properly due to them which would be pretty difficult if the court agrees there was never authority to impose the penalty in the first place; if you've already paid, then you're the one having to initiate court action to try to recover it.)

 

[Hadders]

Expect the first and second appeals to be rejected. It's only when it gets to the third appeal that it gets looked at properly. To maximise the chances of success the appeal needs to be worded correctly. Forum members can assist with this so do post up a copy of your proposed appeal and we can proof read it.

 

[Brissle Girl]

You need to include ALL the reasons at FIRST appeal to maximise your chances. There is no restriction on the size of the appeal - if the system they give you tries to truncate what you want to write, use an attachment.

We have seen appeals bodies claim when rejecting appeals (using what looks like cut-and-paste) that a ticket bought after boarding is invalid, so you'll have to spell out that argument in a way that doesn't let them send that response.

However island's point is probably the one I would list second (after the valid ticket one) as it's the simplest to prove - the train did not stop at City Thameslink (and the fare to Kings Cross was less so doesn't match) therefore the PF cannot have been issued in accordance with regulation 5(5A) etc. In short, the amount of the penalty imposed by the company upon you is higher than the maximum that the regulations permit.

Note that under the (current flawed) regulations, even if the appeal is upheld and the wrong fare was used on the notice, the fare element of the PF remains payable. Appeals bodies only have the power to cancel the PENALTY element of the Penalty Fare (£50 or £100) - never the fare element. In circumstances like yours where the correct fare was already paid, normally the train company will agree to waive their claim to it, but if they don't, it's easier for you if you have NOT yet paid. (They'd have to persuade a civil court the money was properly due to them which would be pretty difficult if the court agrees there was never authority to impose the penalty in the first place; if you've already paid, then you're the one having to initiate court action to try to recover it.)

Surely a stronger second point is that the train actually left at 0926, ie the same time the ticket was issued?

 

[DT2024]

However island's point is probably the one I would list second (after the valid ticket one) as it's the simplest to prove - the train did not stop at City Thameslink (and the fare to Kings Cross was less so doesn't match) therefore the PF cannot have been issued in accordance with regulation 5(5A) etc. In short, the amount of the penalty imposed by the company upon you is higher than the maximum that the regulations permit.

Thank you for this and the balance of your comment.
It is true that the destination on the PFN is a station that the train did not call at. However the fare charged is to the final destination of the train I was on (ie. The price of that fare matches that final destination). So I have been charged the max fare available for that train’s journey, but with the incorrect station listed.
I recall I was asked: “Where are you going to?” And replied “City Thameslink”. I suspect that’s the workaround for getting me to specify for the fare to be charged other than to the next station the train is calling at (ie. Other than the default position). Hard to feel it’s not deliberate as it would be easy to ask passengers whether the PF should be issued to the next station or a later one.
Ps. No intention of drip feeding here, I’m just realising as I learn that certain details are relevant when I thought they wouldn’t matter.

Surely a stronger second point is that the train actually left at 0926, ie the same time the ticket was issued?

Thanks. My concern about this is that I had boarded the train when the transaction went through. I don’t want to be dishonest by suggesting otherwise. (Although I suppose I can say that the ticket was not bought after the train’s actual time of departure).

 

[furlong]

Please re-read the responses on this thread!
Your train's final destination was Kings Cross. (Proof - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L15938/2024-03-27 )
The fare to that station is £1 less than the fare to City Thameslink. Look it up yourself at nationalrail.co.uk for a single journey leaving Baldock on the 9.25am train for a working day next week if you don't believe us!

There can be no dispute that the Penalty Fare was not issued in accordance with the revised version of the regulations currently in force for that reason alone.