THAMESLINK services to Kent and Sussex routes 2018

[physics34]

Still doesnt seem to be a link to this on the Southern website.

 

[Class 466]

Maybe I'm missing the obvious but does it say whether the services along the Greenwich line would replace or compliment the services via Lewisham from Charlton?

The entire SE Metro timetable will be recast - With the current xx.24 & xx.54 Gillingham to Charing X (Via Dartford, Woolwich & Lewisham) Replaced by the Rainham - Luton (Via Dartford, Greenwich and London Bridge).

The Hastings line SE services will also have to be recast to incorporate the proposed hourly extensions to Ore (Replacing 1Fxx Ore to Vics) and I'd expect some retimings along the Maidstone East & Chatham Main lines.

 

[ScotGG]

The entire SE Metro timetable will be recast - With the current xx.24 & xx.54 Gillingham to Charing X (Via Dartford, Woolwich & Lewisham) Replaced by the Rainham - Luton (Via Dartford, Greenwich and London Bridge).

The Hastings line SE services will also have to be recast to incorporate the proposed hourly extensions to Ore (Replacing 1Fxx Ore to Vics) and I'd expect some retimings along the Maidstone East & Chatham Main lines.

Thanks.

So if there's a big SE re-cast at the same time will there be an imminent consultation there?

 

[JonathanH]

The entire SE Metro timetable will be recast - With the current xx.24 & xx.54 Gillingham to Charing X (Via Dartford, Woolwich & Lewisham) Replaced by the Rainham - Luton (Via Dartford, Greenwich and London Bridge).

The Hastings line SE services will also have to be recast to incorporate the proposed hourly extensions to Ore (Replacing 1Fxx Ore to Vics) and I'd expect some retimings along the Maidstone East & Chatham Main lines.

One of the Hastings SE services already has a long turn around at Hastings, certainly enough time to get to Ore and back. It would seem that one reason that the Brighton / Victoria services went there is because the stop had to be taken out of the Ashford to Brighton services due to tight timings.

 

[JamesRowden]

One of the Hastings SE services already has a long turn around at Hastings, certainly enough time to get to Ore and back. It would seem that one reason that the Brighton / Victoria services went there is because the stop had to be taken out of the Ashford to Brighton services due to tight timings.

And there is already an hourly Southeastern service to/from Ore during the peak.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So a few musings from a Southern Metro prospective:

Proposed changes to train services between Caterham and London with improved journey times. What are these proposed changes? Don't want to lose the current 2tph along the Sydenham corridor.

New faster all day service between Caterham and London Bridge by combining trains at Purley. Will this mean axing the Caterham - Victoria services or combining the Tattenham fasts with one of the Caterham - London Bridge stoppers?

Norwood Junction will be served by Thameslink trains
This is good news as I mentioned earlier

No mention of the Beckenham Junction - London Bridge via Crystal Palace service.
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And from a Thameslink perspective:

New all day train services are proposed to be introduced between Kentish Town – Central London (via Elephant & Castle) – Catford – Bromley South – Orpington. Doesn't this happen already Monday - Friday with the Sevenoaks services? Great if this is extended to weekends.

Proposed new all-day Monday to Friday and Saturday Thameslink service between Maidstone East and Cambridge Adding this to the existing SE service along the Maidstone East line would be most welcome particularly if they could stop at Bearsted


The only concern I have with only a two-track core is what contigency plans would be put in place in times of disruption (i.e. train breakdown in the core). I can't imagine SouthEastern stepping in with extra trains to Greenwich and Maidstone East to replace a failed TL service. Time to think perhaps of a second north-south link...?

 

[greatkingrat]

I am surprised they are running 6tph to Hertford North all day, 4tph would seem sufficient with maybe another 2tph as far as Gordon Hill.

 

[Class377/5]

So a few musings from a Southern Metro prospective:

Proposed changes to train services between Caterham and London with improved journey times. What are these proposed changes? Don't want to lose the current 2tph along the Sydenham corridor.

New faster all day service between Caterham and London Bridge by combining trains at Purley. Will this mean axing the Caterham - Victoria services or combining the Tattenham fasts with one of the Caterham - London Bridge stoppers?

No there will be a mix of train to both London Bridge and Victoria from ether with Caterham and Tattenham five car services linking up at Purley.

Norwood Junction will be served by Thameslink trains
This is good news as I mentioned earlier

No mention of the Beckenham Junction - London Bridge via Crystal Palace service.

SN39 service on page 50 of the consulation document.

And from a Thameslink perspective:

New all day train services are proposed to be introduced between Kentish Town – Central London (via Elephant & Castle) – Catford – Bromley South – Orpington. Doesn't this happen already Monday - Friday with the Sevenoaks services? Great if this is extended to weekends.

The Orpington is a peak only service. The new bit is making it all day service via Catford Loop (current service is via Herne Hill).

Proposed new all-day Monday to Friday and Saturday Thameslink service between Maidstone East and Cambridge Adding this to the existing SE service along the Maidstone East line would be most welcome particularly if they could stop at Bearsted

There is mention of the Ashford services calling at only Bearsted after Maidstone East.

The only concern I have with only a two-track core is what contigency plans would be put in place in times of disruption (i.e. train breakdown in the core). I can't imagine SouthEastern stepping in with extra trains to Greenwich and Maidstone East to replace a failed TL service. Time to think perhaps of a second north-south link...?

Easy. Turn services in the exclusive London Bridge Thameslink platforms. The low level can take the East Grinstead, Littlehampton, Horsham and Brighton services with Maidstone, Rainham turned on the high level platforms. I'd even suggest having the 4tph to Brighton on the TL platforms for turning releasing pressure on the low level.

I am surprised they are running 6tph to Hertford North all day, 4tph would seem sufficient with maybe another 2tph as far as Gordon Hill.

I believe those extra 2tph are the future Stevenage trains with the 'old plan' of 4tph Hertford North terminators added in too.

 

[JonathanH]

Easy. Turn services in the exclusive London Bridge Thameslink platforms. The low level can take the East Grinstead, Littlehampton, Horsham and Brighton services with Maidstone, Rainham turned on the high level platforms. I'd even suggest having the 4tph to Brighton on the TL platforms for turning releasing pressure on the low level.

There is 18tph scheduled for the low level in the peaks

6tph via Peckham Rye
Beckenham Junction via Crystal Palace
Selhurst via Streatham
Sutton via Mitcham Junction

4tph stopping via Sydenham
West Croydon
London Victoria via Crystal Palace

2tph to West Croydon (fast lines through Sydenham)
Epsom via West Croydon

4tph to the slow side of East Croydon (fast lines through Sydenham)
Caterham / Tattenham Corner
Uckfield

2tph to the fast side of East Croydon (fast lines through Sydenham)
Arun Valley
East Coastway

The Thameslink platforms have 12tph towards Southern destinations plus the Kent side services.

6tph to the fast side of East Croydon (fast lines through Sydenham)
Brighton (4tph)
Littlehampton (via Hove)

6tph to the slow side of East Croydon (fast lines through Sydenham)
Gatwick Airport (stopping via Redhill)
Horsham (stopping via Redhill)
East Grinstead

Is that just about full capacity or is there room for anything else?

 

[cle]

Assuming the Orpington TL trains are slow, which will be a great help to Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye growth (Nunhead too) - plus inducing more demand from the Loop.

Wonder if the Maidstone will stop at Denmark Hill also, as it becomes more of a mainline stop?

 

[Bald Rick]

One worrying thing is the Statement that Maidstone East service can't call at both Swanley and St Mary Cray due to tight turnaround times. Could the service be a bit fragile?

Fragile / unworkable; potato / potarto.

 

[LLivery]

Yeh not good..... considering this service has been in place since the beginning of time. Also with no disabled access at norwood junction this could be big issue. They would have to ensure trains arrive into platform 5 for cross platform access for East Croydon connections.
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Can Purley not be used more as a turn around point. Caterham has never needed 4 tph off peak neither has Coulsdon Town.

It is very disappointing and I haven't even thought about disabled access.
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I look forward to casting my eye over this when I get home.TBH I would rather change at Norwood Junction (assuming reasonable connection time) than at East Croydon simply because EC is too overcrowded and generally an awful station IMO. If TL services could stop at Norwood, I would be very happy.

I am hoping the 2tph will continue along the Sydenham corridor to/from East Croydon (or Norwood Jnc) as LO only work to Crystal Palace or West Croydon which is no good to anyone hoping to make a connection at East Croydon.

I am glad that TL will stop at Norwood Junction but having planning to have Caterham trains via Peckham Rye and not via Sydenham is just annoying. Three trains would be required to get to Brighton as the TL trains at Norwood Jun will only go as far at Gatwick. NXG will lose its Horsham service too.

 

[Failed Unit]

Opps my bad Knebworth to Hitchin is the wrong example. The point stands though for journeys such as Potters Bar to Huntingdon, Knebworth to Arlesely, Welwyn Garden City to Biggleswade etc.

I would agree, from a direct service to a 23 minute wait is not acceptable. I wonder if circulation via Finsbury Park will be quicker.

 

[jimney]

I've emailed customer services about this, but on the grounds they will take (at least) 20 working days to reply thought it might be quicker to ask here...

Page 71 of the consultation document online at
http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/download/12366.9/timetable-consultation/

says that there will be 4tph service during the daytime on route GN5.

However, the station by station comparison document

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/download/12394.2/station-by-station-comparison/

suggests an off-peak reduction of 3tph to 2tph for the smaller stations on the line like Brookmans Park, Welham Green and Hadley Wood.

Do I to take it two of those 4tph some are semi-fast services which do not stop at all stations?

 

[neilm]

Disappointed that Seaford-Lewes is dropping from 3tph to 2tph in the peaks, and that the through Victoria services are under threat. There is talk of an acceptable 5-9 minute connection at Lewes off alternative London trains, but given how often these 'connections' are missed in the pm peak, this is not reassuring.

Also just read that Haywards Heath calls will cease, in the peak GatEx service, to be replaced by 'other Southern services'. This will not go down well, and the loss of HH as an interchange from/to GatEx is regrettable.

I do not understand how they can stop calling Gatex trains at Haywards Heath. This will significantly reduce the number of trains to Victoria this will leave about 3/4tph and you will loose the interchange as well.

 

[Bishopstone]

I do not understand how they can stop calling Gatex trains at Haywards Heath. This will significantly reduce the number of trains to Victoria this will leave about 3/4tph and you will loose the interchange as well.

The consultation states 'other Southern services' will call instead, but this is intriguing as - during the peaks - all existing Southern services call anyway. The only new *Southern* services in 2018 appear to be a couple of additional Littlehampton-Victoria trains, which wouldn't compensate for the loss of (at least) 3tph GatEx.

The commuting populace of the Haywards Heath/Bolnore/Wivelsfield Green areas is growing rapidly, and GatEx is part of the attraction. Being shifted onto Southern (with more stops), or Thameslink 700s (more space, but very few seats by HH) will not be well received.

Or maybe I've read the document incorrectly.

 

[neilm]

The consultation states 'other Southern services' will call instead, but this is intriguing as - during the peaks - all existing Southern services call anyway. The only new *Southern* services in 2018 appear to be a couple of additional Littlehampton-Victoria trains, which wouldn't compensate for the loss of (at least) 3tph GatEx.

The commuting populace of the Haywards Heath/Bolney/Wivelsfield Green areas is growing rapidly, and GatEx is part of the attraction. Being shifted onto Southern (with more stops), or Thameslink 700s (more space, but very few seats by HH) will not be well received.

Or maybe I've read the document incorrectly.

You have read it the same way I have. Back in December 2008 when the they started they told everyone affected by the change to change at Haywards Heath. It seems that has now changed... But if any Gatex no longer stop then they will be a netloss as currently all trains stop at Haywards Heath. Including the Thameslinks via Herne hill which will change into London bridge trains. Currently in the morning BML runs at full capacity so again in my head if any stops stopping then it is a loss?

 

[Bishopstone]

You have read it the same way I have. Back in December 2008 when the they started they told everyone affected by the change to change at Haywards Heath. It seems that has now changed... But if any Gatex no longer stop then they will be a netloss as currently all trains stop at Haywards Heath. Including the Thameslinks via Herne hill which will change into London bridge trains. Currently in the morning BML runs at full capacity so again in my head if any stops stopping then it is a loss?

The tables show a significant increase in *Thameslink* services from Haywards Heath, but of course these don't go to Victoria and, anyway, the consultation specifically states the ex-GatEx calls will be picked up by Southern services.

I do hope the consultation is not using 'Southern' as shorthand for 'GTR' in some places, but not in others. That would be very confusing.

 

[JonathanH]

You have read it the same way I have. Back in December 2008 when the they started they told everyone affected by the change to change at Haywards Heath. It seems that has now changed... But if any Gatex no longer stop then they will be a netloss as currently all trains stop at Haywards Heath. Including the Thameslinks via Herne hill which will change into London bridge trains. Currently in the morning BML runs at full capacity so again in my head if any stops stopping then it is a loss?

More to the point, if Gatwick Express services don't stop at Haywards Heath (and other stations) are they actually going to be able to path them non-stop at speed between Brighton and Gatwick Airport with the number of other trains that have to stop over the route?

On the other hand, trains from the main line (currently some Thameslink services) won't have to go via Redhill any more so perhaps that is where they think the capacity will come from.

 

[Minstral25]

More to the point, if Gatwick Express services don't stop at Haywards Heath (and other stations) are they actually going to be able to path them non-stop at speed between Brighton and Gatwick Airport with the number of other trains that have to stop over the route?

On the other hand, trains from the main line (currently some Thameslink services) won't have to go via Redhill any more so perhaps that is where they think the capacity will come from.

Redhill needs more services not less. The planning to extend Victoria journey times by 40% (11 minutes) and then knock 2 minutes off London Bridge are no help to anyone. Passengers are used to under half hour to Victoria.

The thousands of new homes being built near Redhill station in the next 5 years plus thousands more already in progress along the line such as at Salfords and Horley are going to exasperate the overcrowding problem. There were 6 trains per hour 4 years ago and they were overcrowded then, having the same in the future is not going to improve services even if some will be higher capacity 700s. Many peak trains have been 12 coaches for years

 

[infobleep]

I would agree, from a direct service to a 23 minute wait is not acceptable. I wonder if circulation via Finsbury Park will be quicker.

Would their need to be an easement allowing travel via Finsbury Park?

When there are long waits for connecting services I am always reminded of the Great Western Railway electrification project where talked of saves of about 12 or was it 20 minutes between Cardiff and London.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Class377/5]

The tables show a significant increase in *Thameslink* services from Haywards Heath, but of course these don't go to Victoria and, anyway, the consultation specifically states the ex-GatEx calls will be picked up by Southern services.

I do hope the consultation is not using 'Southern' as shorthand for 'GTR' in some places, but not in others. That would be very confusing.

It's worth noting that the increase in Thameslink services isnt an increase in tph through Haywards but the current Southern Littlehampton and Brighton to London Bridge services transferring over.

 

[neilm]

It's worth noting that the increase in Thameslink services isnt an increase in tph through Haywards but the current Southern Littlehampton and Brighton to London Bridge services transferring over.

That's what I thought, so cutting Gatex will be a huge loss at Haywards Heath.

 

[Bishopstone]

It's worth noting that the increase in Thameslink services isnt an increase in tph through Haywards but the current Southern Littlehampton and Brighton to London Bridge services transferring over.

Page 23 of the consultation document states that the Littlehampton via Hove to London Bridge service - now Southern, but Thameslink from 2018 - will increase from 2 trains to 4 trains, in the a.m peak. I presume these extra services will call at Haywards Heath, as Thameslink stop everything there.

Page 24 states an intention to introduce 'one or two' additional Littlehampton via Hove to VICTORIA Southern services, in the a.m peak, quite separate from the Thameslink services above.

So, putting the jigsaw together, I think the intended replacement for GatEx at HH is various ex-Coastway trains of both Southern and Thameslink brands.

Whether this will be considered an acceptable change will hinge, I think, on the likelihood of a class 700, ex-Littlehampton, rolling into HH with spare seats for the 50 minute commute. At present the answer is 'no chance!', but with at least three additional 12-car trains serving the Littlehampton-Hove corridor in the peak, I guess the overall capacity may be adequate for now.

 

[TrenHotel]

From a Greenwich line perspective, the new service is welcome if it adds to what's already there. But...

The entire SE Metro timetable will be recast - With the current xx.24 & xx.54 Gillingham to Charing X (Via Dartford, Woolwich & Lewisham) Replaced by the Rainham - Luton (Via Dartford, Greenwich and London Bridge).

...this is concerning, together with the reference in the doc (which looked like a typo) to Woolwich Dockyard, Belvedere and Erith (which wouldn't be served by the new Rainham trains) being served by 4 trains per hour from Southeastern (it's currently six).

Seems very odd to consult on TL changes which come into SE territory, but not on SE changes.

 

[ScotGG]

It is very odd regarding SE cuts and it's true that one cannot comment if SE plans aren't public. The fact they arne't raises suspicions. They can then cut services including from fast growing stations and claim all is ok as there's Thameslink coming with popular support?

I hope it's a typo as reducing services is not the way forward, and if planners think Crossrail picks up the slack they aren't looking at population and housing projections in the next decade.

 

[Barn]

There's a service missing, I'm sure, because SE have said previously that CHX services will be restored permanently east of Charlton.

And if the only services were the TL service and the 4tph CST services then the line between Charlton and Blackheath would fall into disuse and presumably require closure or parliamentary services!

 

[teamsoutheast]

Been reading this thread with interest. Will the Wimbledon loop trains still be going through the Thameslink core beyond Blackfriars or will they be terminating there. I know commuters using this service kicked up a fuss about this and won but surely this decison will be reversed once the rail planners realise the pain this can cause to the whole network if there are any issues? Also wouldn't they get more trains per hour if they terminated at Blackfriars? Seems a bit strange they fussed about this especially as they only need to walk across the platform to continue their journey. Most of them get off at Farringdon or City Thameslink anyway. The Catford loop line has needed more frequency badly but I can't see how it's going to work if there are any issues on the Wimbledon loop

 

[swt_passenger]

Been reading this thread with interest. Will the Wimbledon loop trains still be going through the Thameslink core beyond Blackfriars...

Yes. The consultation doesn't mention any changes to the Wimbledon loop, except that the standard origin will be St Albans. The original TSGN proposals had morning and evening peak extensions/ differences.

 

[Class377/5]

Been reading this thread with interest. Will the Wimbledon loop trains still be going through the Thameslink core beyond Blackfriars or will they be terminating there. I know commuters using this service kicked up a fuss about this and won but surely this decison will be reversed once the rail planners realise the pain this can cause to the whole network if there are any issues? Also wouldn't they get more trains per hour if they terminated at Blackfriars? Seems a bit strange they fussed about this especially as they only need to walk across the platform to continue their journey. Most of them get off at Farringdon or City Thameslink anyway. The Catford loop line has needed more frequency badly but I can't see how it's going to work if there are any issues on the Wimbledon loop

The problem with this 'pain' people keep mentioning is that it's not true. Currently the 15tph of Thameslink plus the SE Blackfrairs services all cross each other. In 2018 it's supposed to be 8tph plus 6tph of Southeastern crossing at the same location. So this pain you speak of is less conflict than today's service so proof that it's an non issue.

Also if you think it's about walking across a platform you really don't know the layout of Blackfriars well. There are two bay platforms so you need to exit your 8 car trains at either end of the 12 car platform, exit to the below level then cross the flow of people entering/exiting the station and go back up and wait on a 12 car platform. Add in the changing and waiting for a train and jounery times start adding up along doing it the above atleast one way every day. The Cross platform will only apply in the Up direct 50% of the time. So the easy Cross platform interchange is actually a lie for 75% of trips.
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Been reading this thread with interest. Will the Wimbledon loop trains still be going through the Thameslink core beyond Blackfriars or will they be terminating there. I know commuters using this service kicked up a fuss about this and won but surely this decison will be reversed once the rail planners realise the pain this can cause to the whole network if there are any issues? Also wouldn't they get more trains per hour if they terminated at Blackfriars? Seems a bit strange they fussed about this especially as they only need to walk across the platform to continue their journey. Most of them get off at Farringdon or City Thameslink anyway. The Catford loop line has needed more frequency badly but I can't see how it's going to work if there are any issues on the Wimbledon loop

The Catford Loop is going upto 4tph 8 car 700 under current plans whilst still mixing without issue is with the Sutton services.