The Decline of Midland Red West

[TheGrandWazoo]

** Mod note **

This thread has been spun off from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/firstgroup-restructuring-and-survival.65668/

I suppose this is partly why they're in this mess now!

Fish rots from the head down.... It's not just the obvious examples of Northampton or SMT that make you realise how bad First got.

I had a spell of travelling on Midland Red West from 1996 to 2001. The business contracted as they cut back services and frequencies and exited Shropshire etc. They cashed in on various properties (Kiddy, Evesham) but investment was minimal especially when compared with the Badgerline days. The odd splurge of spending of some Merc minis in (1998) and a sizeable batch of e300s, Solos and a few Tridents in 2004.

From covering Worcestershire and Herefordshire plus reasonable chunks of Shropshire and West Mids, they're now confined to Worcester and Malvern with tendrils to Birmingham and Evesham plus a few infrequent runs to Tewkesbury or Ledbury. Saddening.

 

[richardjones21]

Fish rots from the head down.... It's not just the obvious examples of Northampton or SMT that make you realise how bad First got.

I had a spell of travelling on Midland Red West from 1996 to 2001. The business contracted as they cut back services and frequencies and exited Shropshire etc. They cashed in on various properties (Kiddy, Evesham) but investment was minimal especially when compared with the Badgerline days. The odd splurge of spending of some Merc minis in (1998) and a sizeable batch of e300s, Solos and a few Tridents in 2004.

From covering Worcestershire and Herefordshire plus reasonable chunks of Shropshire and West Mids, they're now confined to Worcester and Malvern with tendrils to Birmingham and Evesham plus a few infrequent runs to Tewkesbury or Ledbury. Saddening.

Midland Red West ceased in 1999 & became First Midland Red. The Shropshire retrenchment followed funding cuts by Shropshire County Council. Both Kidderminster & Redditch were major loss making operations which we sold to a company with lower overheads and had established it's own operation in Redditch. It is significant Whittles too exited Kidderminster. Birmingham & Black Country services became unviable and ended due to competition for services from Pete's Travel who due to its loss making activities became part of Diamond Bus. The current operation reflects what is viable commercially in area lacking in funding from the local authorities. First in Worcester curr
operated the most viable service possible with little support.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Midland Red West ceased in 1999 & became First Midland Red.

Hardly a material change....

Both Kidderminster & Redditch were major loss making operations which we sold to a company with lower overheads and had established it's own operation in Redditch. It is significant Whittles too exited Kidderminster.

Yes, but why were they major loss making operations? How had a business that was making a c.9% operating profit in Badgerline days was making 13% by the millennium but by the mid 2000s was below 5% and not long after that, was loss making? Why was there suddenly more competition?

Birmingham & Black Country services became unviable and ended due to competition for services from Pete's Travel who due to its loss making activities became part of Diamond Bus. The current operation reflects what is viable commercially in area lacking in funding from the local authorities. First in Worcester currently operates the most viable service possible with little support.

In relation to the current operation, that much is true with apathy from local authorities etc. They are operating the best they can in the circumstances. However, to argue that the decline of MRW/FMR during First Group tenure is anything but a depressing episode would be stretching credibility

 

[Stan Drews]

First never seem to have been comfortable with what tend to be known as ‘shire’ operators. Not always great with town/city ops either, but don’t seem to like being out in the country!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First never seem to have been comfortable with what tend to be known as ‘shire’ operators. Not always great with town/city ops either, but don’t seem to like being out in the country!

It has felt that way at times. With the caveat of making comparisons (i.e. differing councils, local differences etc), I look at the neighbouring Stagecoach West (the old C&G business). They may have better councils in Gloucestershire/Wiltshire, and a bigger mass of people in Cheltenham and Gloucester vs. Worcester and its environs, and there have been some ups and downs (notably Forest of Dean). However, they have invested consistently and developed services.

If you were to compare both businesses from 1995, they have had very different trajectories.

 

[Robertj21a]

Does Worcester still suffer badly from terrible congestion, it certainly was a nightmare city in which to operate any bus service ?

 

[winston270twm]

Does Worcester still suffer badly from terrible congestion, it certainly was a nightmare city in which to operate any bus service ?

Yes - traffic can be a nightmare.

Plus there's flooding to contend with during the winter months

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Does Worcester still suffer badly from terrible congestion, it certainly was a nightmare city in which to operate any bus service ?

It does suffer from that, courtesy of geography (bridges), medieval street layouts, etc. It does have bus priority but this is poorly enforced and the park and rides were axed through budget cuts - the apathy of the local authority. That's before you get any flooding! It is certainly isn't easy but it is difficult to look at the 1995 business and then compare it to now.

That business had the remnants of the once massive fleet of Nationals, a lot of first generation minibuses, and some elderly Tigers but it also had a tidy fleet of Lynxes, Lances and Darts. There was a big batch of Varios to wipe out the old minis, and then apart from a splurge in 2003/4 on some Solos, Tridents and e300s (which I think co-incided with a fair chunk of DoT money for Worcester, and some funding from Herefordshire), I struggle to recall much other investment until 2014/5.

 

[richardjones21]

Hardly a material change....

Yes, but why were they major loss making operations? How had a business that was making a c.9% operating profit in Badgerline days was making 13% by the millennium but by the mid 2000s was below 5% and not long after that, was loss making? Why was there suddenly more competition?

In relation to the current operation, that much is true with apathy from local authorities etc. They are operating the best they can in the circumstances. However, to argue that the decline of MRW/FMR during First Group tenure is anything but a depressing episode would be stretching credibility

The company structure when MRW were part of Badgerline Holdings and Service Mileage rapidly declined after Ken Mills retired and Ian Humphreys became MD because the vehicles used many bought under NBC days were time expired & similar vehicles replacing them were of a larger capacity thus leading to lower frequency's in order to maintain break even points and synergy of scale.

It is very simple to describe the company as depressing and I note you are not a resident of the area using FMR frequently therefore have not seen the decline in Worcestershire of usage of services across the county and the massive growth of car ownership together with major changes to concessionary fare reimbursement which radically changed the business model operated whilst the service operating usage changed alongside a major increase of overheads and a reduction of concessionary fare support across the rural area during this period.

A number of low cost operators also began operating thought the company operating area reducing the viability of a number of services including 144.

The simple answer to suddenly more competition is a reduction of barriers of entry to the market with low cost operators coming online such as Little Red Bus, Petes Travel, Birmingham Coach Company, Boomerang with none of the company enhancements such as pensions and enhanced sick pay offered when tender prices were calculated together with an expansion of tendered services operated by Stevensons, Astons & Whittles.

The 9% operating profit used to take account of the fixed rate return the company received of undertaking contracts to the WMPTA which due to operating overheads become untenable.

The Lance's were bought purely for Centro contracts then abandoned, the Darts for Shropshire Bus then abandoned, The Tigers were hopelessly unreliable and the Lynxes casacaded to replace them the whole business model was built on Merecedes minibuses which were cheep to run and ran on everything the Varios that replaced them were hopeless and the cuts invariably that followed were unavoidable.

New entrants into the National Express market using lower priced contracts led to the closure of the coaching unit together with heavy losses from the holiday program operated due to an industry price war. The FMR Digbeth & Evesham operation closed and fares were increased in order to maintain profit margins in the remaining areas of FMR operation.

The current business in Worcestershire is a very fair reflection of the costs currently occurred such as DDA implementation etc.

It is often spoken in our industry use it or lose and despite many trials of various product promotions the current level of service simply matches demand.

One example the recent reduction of 144 reflects lower fare products introduced along the corridor by National Express West Midlands within the TfWM area reducing demand for FMR services whilst continually to maintain the frequency within Worcestershire. The entire history of Midland Red has been basically managing decline and this continues to today after 116 years.

First Midland Red Buses Limited Limited provided the best possible service in a very hard operating area those who criticise the company obviously never used the company daily as some of us actually did.

 

[carlberry]

One example the recent reduction of 144 reflects lower fare products introduced along the corridor by National Express West Midlands within the TfWM area reducing demand for FMR services whilst continually to maintain the frequency within Worcestershire. The entire history of Midland Red has been basically managing decline and this continues to today after 116 years.

Much of the story is the same as the rest of the industry, just with different names. However it's not true that Midland Red has been in decline for it's entire history. For most of it's first 60 years it was expanding especially in the 1930s and 1950 it (along with most of the industry) and, via it's bus building especially, was a source of innovation. The enforced sale of it's central operations was something it never recovered from and it's unfortunate that it took it so long to face the inevitable consequences of that move.

 

[richardjones21]

Much of the story is the same as the rest of the industry, just with different names. However it's not true that Midland Red has been in decline for it's entire history. For most of it's first 60 years it was expanding especially in the 1930s and 1950 it (along with most of the industry) and, via it's bus building especially, was a source of innovation. The enforced sale of it's central operations was something it never recovered from and it's unfortunate that it took it so long to face the inevitable consequences of that move.

I am 53 years of age and have used Midland Red (West) my entire life and throughout it has been in terminal decline.

The Midland Red (Metropolitan) Limited creation and sale was not enforced as such this is a total misconception but was due to BMMO & NBC being unable to reach a joint operating agreement with the WMPTA after boundary changes in 1973. The WMPTA then used its powers at the time to undertake integration required by its mandate. I was very lucky long before Health & Safety rules to spend my summer holidays at Vernon Rd the management at the time freely admitted BMMO was unsustainable in its pre WMPTE sale form & after the creation of MROC even the complex MAP plans in the late 1970s could not save MROC.

To be brutally honest the BMMO products were hopelessly unreliable and frankly dangerous at the time of the 1970s culminating in a mother and son being killed by a vehicle in Dudley Bus Station which was a wake up call to how bad they were you cannot compere a BMMO S17 with an LS18 I know which one would usually break down on the way to my swimming club in the 1970s. It was common to travel on an S21 or S22 with a window boarded up or literally held together by gaffer tape sometimes with actual seats missing & it is commonly told that WMPTE could not believe how many non runners were towed into Alderley St dump in December 1973.

It is amazing how many view Midland Red through rose coloured glasses compared with reality of actually using them for over half a century even in the 1950s & 1960s severe vehicle and labour shortages led to mass daily cancellations and the company having a terrible reputation from what my parents used to tell me & my Aunt and Uncle worked for the company!

The Digbeth operations continued from The Bull Ring Bus Station into the creation of FirstBus although operational control of Digbeth was surrendered to National Express I agree with maintenance was carried out at Kidderminster and garaged in The Bull Ring Bus Station at night I should know I used to transfer the Lynx & Lance's between the garages whilst coaching albeit mainly rail replacements continued well into the FirstGroup era until Heron Lodge closed and this was quite rightly centralised by First.

Stagecoach uses a very different business model to FirstGroup and comparisons between the two are I'll judged in terms of margins and trading accounts with First Midland Red being part of a global PLC in terms during this period based on market capitalization.

Ken Mills bought a new vision and new opportisim to Midland Red West but it was not to last as a financially viable business model under FirstGroup sadly due to the changing operating environment.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The company structure when MRW were part of Badgerline Holdings and Service Mileage rapidly declined after Ken Mills retired and Ian Humphreys became MD because the vehicles used many bought under NBC days were time expired & similar vehicles replacing them were of a larger capacity thus leading to lower frequency's in order to maintain break even points and synergy of scale.

It is very simple to describe the company as depressing and I note you are not a resident of the area using FMR frequently therefore have not seen the decline in Worcestershire of usage of services across the county and the massive growth of car ownership together with major changes to concessionary fare reimbursement which radically changed the business model operated whilst the service operating usage changed alongside a major increase of overheads and a reduction of concessionary fare support across the rural area during this period.

A number of low cost operators also began operating thought the company operating area reducing the viability of a number of services including 144.

The simple answer to suddenly more competition is a reduction of barriers of entry to the market with low cost operators coming online such as Little Red Bus, Petes Travel, Birmingham Coach Company, Boomerang with none of the company enhancements such as pensions and enhanced sick pay offered when tender prices were calculated together with an expansion of tendered services operated by Stevensons, Astons & Whittles.

The 9% operating profit used to take account of the fixed rate return the company received of undertaking contracts to the WMPTA which due to operating overheads become untenable.

New entrants into the National Express market using lower priced contracts led to the closure of the coaching unit together with heavy losses from the holiday program operated due to an industry price war. The FMR Digbeth & Evesham operation closed and fares were increased in order to maintain profit margins in the remaining areas of FMR operation.

The current business in Worcestershire is a very fair reflection of the costs currently occurred such as DDA implementation etc.

It is often spoken in our industry use it or lose and despite many trials of various product promotions the current level of service simply matches demand.

One example the recent reduction of 144 reflects lower fare products introduced along the corridor by National Express West Midlands within the TfWM area reducing demand for FMR services whilst continually to maintain the frequency within Worcestershire. The entire history of Midland Red has been basically managing decline and this continues to today after 116 years.

I think you're being very charitable to the tenure of First in respect of Midland Red West. I have been clear in talking about the First Group period. The coaching operation and National Express operation was gone in Badgerline days as was the Digbeth bus operation and indeed, Stevensons were no longer the issue that they were.

Whilst no comparison is ever "like for like", such a decline hasn't been experienced by Stagecoach West (the old C&G) or Stagecoach Midlands (the old MRS). They too have the same issues of potential competition, and indeed Boomerang were based in Tewkesbury; those barriers to entry are similar, the challenges for the old established businesses are also broadly the same. It may be interesting to consider why such businesses felt so emboldened to compete against First rather than Stagecoach? They too have operations typified by some larger towns, interurban services and, in the case of SC West, some intensely rural operations. That isn't to say that there aren't differences, as I've alluded to, such as the attitude of the respective local authorities but it isn't like comparing Worcester with Edinburgh; it is a reasonable comparison. If you compare those operations and where they are now, vs Midland Red under First ownership, then yes, it is quite saddening. Arguably, MRW had a much better fleet in those days than either of those two operations.

I know you can cite 50 years of decline in Midland Red, and indeed, you can say the same about the entire UK bus industry, and that its been a case of managed decline - some of this is through historical issues, macro-economics (1970s fuel prices, for instance), sociological (e.g. TV killing the evening trade or changes to pub licensing). However, all of that is industry wide, and it's hard to think of many other bus companies that have declined so much in a period of time from a period of being consistently profitable, a reasonable fleet profile, and robust operating network in 1995 to being loss making by 2007.

More recently, I have a great deal of respect for Nigel Eggleton and his team. They are having to manage the best they can with limited capital available, an apathethic local authority, and all the other challenges that operators had (like ENCTS, high street footfall). The marketing on Nimrod and Salt Road is impressive and is delivering growth but that's on 11/12 year vehicles. And that's before the current situation!!

 

[richardjones21]

I think you're being very charitable to the tenure of First in respect of Midland Red West. I have been clear in talking about the First Group period. The coaching operation and National Express operation was gone in Badgerline days as was the Digbeth bus operation and indeed, Stevensons were no longer the issue that they were.

Whilst no comparison is ever "like for like", such a decline hasn't been experienced by Stagecoach West (the old C&G) or Stagecoach Midlands (the old MRS). They too have the same issues of potential competition, and indeed Boomerang were based in Tewkesbury; those barriers to entry are similar, the challenges for the old established businesses are also broadly the same. It may be interesting to consider why such businesses felt so emboldened to compete against First rather than Stagecoach? They too have operations typified by some larger towns, interurban services and, in the case of SC West, some intensely rural operations. That isn't to say that there aren't differences, as I've alluded to, such as the attitude of the respective local authorities but it isn't like comparing Worcester with Edinburgh; it is a reasonable comparison. If you compare those operations and where they are now, vs Midland Red under First ownership, then yes, it is quite saddening. Arguably, MRW had a much better fleet in those days than either of those two operations.

I know you can cite 50 years of decline in Midland Red, and indeed, you can say the same about the entire UK bus industry, and that its been a case of managed decline - some of this is through historical issues, macro-economics (1970s fuel prices, for instance), sociological (e.g. TV killing the evening trade or changes to pub licensing). However, all of that is industry wide, and it's hard to think of many other bus companies that have declined so much in a period of time from a period of being consistently profitable, a reasonable fleet profile, and robust operating network in 1995 to being loss making by 2007.

More recently, I have a great deal of respect for Nigel Eggleton and his team. They are having to manage the best they can with limited capital available, an apathethic local authority, and all the other challenges that operators had (like ENCTS, high street footfall). The marketing on Nimrod and Salt Road is impressive and is delivering growth but that's on 11/12 year vehicles. And that's before the current situation!!

I am not being charitable in any sense or saddened by the current operations of First Midland Red just simply being a realist.

I am simply posting the perception I have based on using Midland Red for over 50 years & describing the organisation I was proud to work for and saddened about comments about the perceived decline at the hands of FirstGroup.

Stage carriage operation continued from The Bull Ring Bus Station well into FirstBus with maintenance undertaken from Kidderminster whilst contract coaching continued until Heron Lodge closed and was centralised by FirstGroup.

As someone who lives in the South West I found your comments grossly unfair on the company which is why I registered on the forum based on my own daily experience of First Midland Red
Buses Limited even under the current circumstances we find ourselves in.

Athough I will admit The Salt Road has been one of the most misguided and stupidly unsuccessful ventures of the company of late completely misunderstanding the nature of the current market and its operating synergies.

If you knew Worcestershire the decline of Midland Red West is due to vastly changing demographics and vastly improved local rail network with modern high frequency trains markedly resulting in the decline of the 144 146 192 293 & 303.

Even your Stagecoach axed its trunk X20 there is no rail line from Redditch & Evesham to Stratford which accounts for much of that companys growth so Midland Red Wests decline was perfectly predictable in such a large car owning area together with perception of the industry instilled locally by the countries first female prime minister.

The final nail in the coffin was the revised concessionery travel free on bus throughout the companies operating area and train within the West Midlands County together with the many railcards avaliable even Worcesters Park & Ride was a total disaster & you cannot blame First for that either.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I am not being charitable in any sense I am simply posting the perception I have based on using Midland Red for over 50 years & describing the organisation I was proud to work for.

As someone who lives in the South West I found your comments grossly unfair on the company which is why I registered on the forum based on my own daily experience of First Midland Red
Buses Limited even under the current circumstances we find ourselves in.

Athough I will admit The Salt Road has been one of the most misguided and stupidly unsuccessful ventures of the company of late completely miss understanding the nature of the current market and its operating synergies.

I'm not clear on why you are being offended or finding these factually based comments unfair in relation to a business that you do not work for, and relate to a period after you left the employ of Midland Red. I ignored the first comment that you made of my non-dom status but unless you are aware of my experience (personal and professional), where I live currently is of little relevance.

Aside from my first hand experiences, my view is also informed on the following facts:

First Midland Red had depots in Worcester, Evesham, Kidderminster, Redditch and Hereford.

• Worcester still operating though with a reduced PVR
• Kidderminster operations sold to Rotala (having cashed on Kiddy site in the meantime)
• Redditch operations sold to Rotala
• Hereford operations closed outright and depot sold for redevelopment
• Evesham operations were largely abandoned save for the services to Redditch (now with Rotala) and to Worcester, allowing the disposal of that depot for redevelopment

Despite realising property disposals and continuing rationalisations, new vehicle investment was as follows:

• 1990 and 1995 - 119 new vehicles
• 1998 - 64 new Mercedes minibuses
• 2000/1 - 7 leased Darts
• 2002-4 - 17 new Solos and 5 new e300 (all partly funded by either Worcestershire or Herefordshire councils)
• 2004 - 34 new e300, 6 Darts and 5 new Trident
• 2014 - 8 new Streetlites
• 2015 - 9 new Streetlites and 4 new Streetdecks

Even with perhaps an acknowledgement that 119 vehicles in 6 years and the 1998 intake will have allowed a deferral of new vehicle investment (allied to PVR reductions), the fact is that only new vehicle investment over the next 6 years was only 67 vehicles and a substantial number of those were partially funded by local authorities. After that, there was no new vehicle investment for 10 years.

More pertinently is the performance (up to the point when Kiddy and Redditch were sold); obviously, there are differences between years and certain one offs but directionally, I think it can be fairly said to show a marked and accelerated decline under First:

	Average pa £m	Average O/P pa £m	Average margin %
1996-2001	17.2	1.78	10.4
2002-2007	16.3	0.83	5.1
2008-2013	15.6	(0.07)	(0.4)

I have immense respect for Nigel Eggleton (met him, decent bloke and very friendly/knowledgeable) and appreciate what he has inherited. Nor is it a slight on the local management who had little ability to influence the demands on ROCE and the limitations on new vehicle investment. More an indictment on the overriding corporate approach of the Moir years and that damage it wrought. What that is is a much reduced operation and to say that MRW has not declined under First since 1995 would somewhat fly in the face of the facts.

 

[carlberry]

I am 53 years of age and have used Midland Red (West) my entire life and throughout it has been in terminal decline.

Your original statement was that 'The entire history of Midland Red has been basically managing decline and this continues to today after 116 years.' which was what I was answering, you've now changed that to Midland Red (West) which has only been in existence for 39 years during which the whole industry has declined, especially outside of metropolitan areas.

 

[richardjones21]

Your original statement was that 'The entire history of Midland Red has been basically managing decline and this continues to today after 116 years.' which was what I was answering, you've now changed that to Midland Red (West) which has only been in existence for 39 years during which the whole industry has declined, especially outside of metropolitan areas.

I stand by claim "Midland Red" has been in decline for 116 years as indicated in my previous posts my reference to Midland Red (West) was simply to indicate the various formations of BMMO, MROC and MRW being in decline over its 116 years history I have changed nothing its is your perception of the comment.

For your guidance The Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Company Limited was formed in 1904 renamed Midland Red Omnibus Company Limited in 1974 with part of the company divested in 1981 to become Midland Red (West) Limited becoming Midland Red West Limited in 1986 and First Midland Red Limited in 1999 I hope that clarifies the long history of the company and noting First Midland Red if my memory serves me correct celebrated the 100th anniversary of the company in 2004. During my 53 years the company has been known as BMMO, MROC, MRW & FMR.

 

[richardjones21]

The company structure when MRW were part of Badgerline Holdings and Service Mileage rapidly declined after Ken Mills retired and Ian Humphreys became MD because the vehicles used many bought under NBC days were time expired & similar vehicles replacing them were of a larger capacity thus leading to lower frequency's in order to maintain break even points and synergy of scale.

It is very simple to describe the company as depressing and I note you are not a resident of the area using FMR frequently therefore have not seen the decline in Worcestershire of usage of services across the county and the massive growth of car ownership together with major changes to concessionary fare reimbursement which radically changed the business model operated whilst the service operating usage changed alongside a major increase of overheads and a reduction of concessionary fare support across the rural area during this period.

A number of low cost operators also began operating thought the company operating area reducing the viability of a number of services including 144.

The simple answer to suddenly more competition is a reduction of barriers of entry to the market with low cost operators coming online such as Little Red Bus, Petes Travel, Birmingham Coach Company, Boomerang with none of the company enhancements such as pensions and enhanced sick pay offered when tender prices were calculated together with an expansion of tendered services operated by Stevensons, Astons & Whittles.

The 9% operating profit used to take account of the fixed rate return the company received of undertaking contracts to the WMPTA which due to operating overheads become untenable.

The Lance's were bought purely for Centro contracts then abandoned, the Darts for Shropshire Bus then abandoned, The Tigers were hopelessly unreliable and the Lynxes casacaded to replace them the whole business model was built on Merecedes minibuses which were cheep to run and ran on everything the Varios that replaced them were hopeless and the cuts invariably that followed were unavoidable.

New entrants into the National Express market using lower priced contracts led to the closure of the coaching unit together with heavy losses from the holiday program operated due to an industry price war. The FMR Digbeth & Evesham operation closed and fares were increased in order to maintain profit margins in the remaining areas of FMR operation.

The current business in Worcestershire is a very fair reflection of the costs currently occurred such as DDA implementation etc.

It is often spoken in our industry use it or lose and despite many trials of various product promotions the current level of service simply matches demand.

One example the recent reduction of 144 reflects lower fare products introduced along the corridor by National Express West Midlands within the TfWM area reducing demand for FMR services whilst continually to maintain the frequency within Worcestershire. The entire history of Midland Red has been basically managing decline and this continues to today after 116 years.

Today First Midland Red Buses Limited provides the best possible service in a very hard operating area those who criticise the company obviously dont use the company daily as some of us actually do.

I'm not clear on why you are being offended or finding these factually based comments unfair in relation to a business that you do not work for, and relate to a period after you left the employ of Midland Red. I ignored the first comment that you made of my non-dom status but unless you are aware of my experience (personal and professional), where I live currently is of little relevance.

Aside from my first hand experiences, my view is also informed on the following facts:

First Midland Red had depots in Worcester, Evesham, Kidderminster, Redditch and Hereford.

• Worcester still operating though with a reduced PVR
• Kidderminster operations sold to Rotala (having cashed on Kiddy site in the meantime)
• Redditch operations sold to Rotala
• Hereford operations closed outright and depot sold for redevelopment
• Evesham operations were largely abandoned save for the services to Redditch (now with Rotala) and to Worcester, allowing the disposal of that depot for redevelopment

Despite realising property disposals and continuing rationalisations, new vehicle investment was as follows:

• 1990 and 1995 - 119 new vehicles
• 1998 - 64 new Mercedes minibuses
• 2000/1 - 7 leased Darts
• 2002-4 - 17 new Solos and 5 new e300 (all partly funded by either Worcestershire or Herefordshire councils)
• 2004 - 34 new e300, 6 Darts and 5 new Trident
• 2014 - 8 new Streetlites
• 2015 - 9 new Streetlites and 4 new Streetdecks

Even with perhaps an acknowledgement that 119 vehicles in 6 years and the 1998 intake will have allowed a deferral of new vehicle investment (allied to PVR reductions), the fact is that only new vehicle investment over the next 6 years was only 67 vehicles and a substantial number of those were partially funded by local authorities. After that, there was no new vehicle investment for 10 years.

More pertinently is the performance (up to the point when Kiddy and Redditch were sold); obviously, there are differences between years and certain one offs but directionally, I think it can be fairly said to show a marked and accelerated decline under First:

	Average pa £m	Average O/P pa £m	Average margin %
1996-2001	17.2	1.78	10.4
2002-2007	16.3	0.83	5.1
2008-2013	15.6	(0.07)	(0.4)

I have immense respect for Nigel Eggleton (met him, decent bloke and very friendly/knowledgeable) and appreciate what he has inherited. Nor is it a slight on the local management who had little ability to influence the demands on ROCE and the limitations on new vehicle investment. More an indictment on the overriding corporate approach of the Moir years and that damage it wrought. What that is is a much reduced operation and to say that MRW has not declined under First since 1995 would somewhat fly in the face of the facts.

It is noted you style yourself as a professional in the industry living in the South West and how this actually acquates with First Midland Red on a day to day operational level with regard to myself actually living in the company operating area for 53 years whilst working with an organisation first known as Badgerline Holdings known later as FirstBus then FirstGroup in which I undertook my professional accountancy training with and was proud to work with especially at Midland Red West .

I note the acquisition figures you post. New asset investment on paper do not reflect the actual costs of day to day operations of the assets by the company simply its NBV. The 119 new buses taken onto the Balance Sheet were dominated by Denis Lance's part of wider order placed by Badgerline Holdings the MRW examples were primarily for Centro operated routes & interurban services and arrived in two batches together with N reg Denis Darts and one of the first "Super Low Floor" examples in the country suitabily liveried. These were eventually completely written down and proved a great asset to the company. A small number of other vehicles were sourced and financed by Centro to thier specifically for requirements together with later vehicles supported by Worcestershire & Herefordshire County Councils in partnership.

The 64 Varios were initially placed onto Worcester Citibus services and were not considered a great sucess in terms of overall running costs and reliability and many following Ian Humphreys arrival were cascaded to other group companies many to you in the South West at First Western National for operation in Torbay & South Devon with the replacement inwards of cascaded Denis Darts requiring lower frequencies than previously required with the break even point of stage carriage revised to match the net profit margin required by the PLC

I acknowledge the gross margin the company achieved from 1996 to 2001. The average margins from 2002 to 2007 reflected a major reduction in passenger numbers and the loss of many key contracts to lower cost operators such as Pete's Travel and a major revision of local authority funding requirements. The rural bus grant obtained from Labour government did little to enhance passengers numbers whilst there became little benefit for the company from a reorganisation of Worcestershire acute hospitals.

With the major upgrades of the local rail network to Redditch, Kidderminster and Worcester the profitability of key routes such as 143 144 146 192 293 rapidly declined as did patronage of the former Wyre Forest Shuttle Reddibus Citibus & Hereford networks with reduced frequency and higher car ownership.

Fare constraints and reduced viability led by increased competition in Kidderminster with Go Whittle, with Veolia in Worcester, Yeomans in Hereford, DRM in Bromyard and Red Diamond in both Redditch & Worcester led to First Midland Red consequently facing reduced margins which had an adverse effect on financial synergies.

I am not aware that the Stagecoach owned companies you quoted faced similar levels of local competition in the local market which First Midland Red had to sustain with its higher labour costs and conditions that its rival operators. Stagecoach itself reduced I believe its Herefordshire services in this period.

I have nothing but praise for Sir Moir Lockhead and the vision he had for FirstGroup at a corporate level however in hindsight some decisions were better than others in respect of First Midland Red.

I note your praise for the current management and wish them well in difficult circumstances.

I personally regard The Salt Road as an I'll convinced idea which has completely failed to capitalise on an historic route concentrating on a theme no one cares about in the area with confusing publicity material and bizarrely liveried vehicles culminating in recent service cuts following an upgrade of the parallel rail service. I doubt most in Worcestershire have ever heard of The Salt Road it is a totally stupid concept and delivered ineptly sadly.

The management of Diamond Bus being based locally in Tividale are currently doing a far better job of operating services in Worcestershire with a clever perception of local needs and recent asset investment sadly lacking in the current management of First Midland Red although with an intransigent local authority Worcester currently has the service provision that is sustainable which is apluadeable and offers to those of us that actually use it a quality professional service that is sadly in terminal decline.

With much changed demographics, increased railway investment, the high level of car ownership and the changing regulatory nature of the industry and national and local government working from within the company unlike yourself I do not accept on any account the decline of the company is wholly attributed to FirstGroup whose goal in a changing and challenging market was primarily was to Transform Travel.

 

[Robertj21a]

I was happy to read your personal interpretation of events at MRW, First etc - until you got to make that statement 'I have nothing but praise for Sir Moir Lockhead'.......

 

[RT4038]

I stand by claim "Midland Red" has been in decline for 116 years as indicated in my previous posts my reference to Midland Red (West) was simply to indicate the various formations of BMMO, MROC and MRW being in decline over its 116 years history I have changed nothing its is your perception of the comment.

Surely this assertation is a travesty of the memory of Messers. Shire, Power and Sinclair? Are you really saying that Midland Red was established in 1904 and has been in decline (for 116 years) ever since? No Golden Years of expanding the company in the 20s & 30s? I think a more accurate statement might be that Midland Red has been operating for 116 years, with the last 66 (or so) in terminal decline.

 

[richardjones21]

Surely this assertation is a travesty of the memory of Messers. Shire, Power and Sinclair? Are you really saying that Midland Red was established in 1904 and has been in decline (for 116 years) ever since? No Golden Years of expanding the company in the 20s & 30s? I think a more accurate statement might be that Midland Red has been operating for 116 years, with the last 66 (or so) in terminal decline.

Although a little before my time there was no doubt a small period of growth in the early years of Midlands however my late Grandad worked for the company for over 50 years & in the late 1920s & 1930s at Cradley Heath and remembered the financial calamity after it bought the tram company between Blackheath, Old Hill & Cradley Heath & always maintained the company was on its knees after WW1 whilst my Aunt worked in payroll at Bearwood from the age of 14 and when I went to do my accountancy training with the company often remarked how bad the financial situation of the company was in her era hence my feeling Midland Red has been in terminal decline for over 100 years.

 

[David Verity]

I was happy to read your personal interpretation of events at MRW, First etc - until you got to make that statement 'I have nothing but praise for Sir Moir Lockhead'.......

Interesting you say that. From where I sat Moir Lockhead took First on a "market share at any price" spending spree for which his successors are trying to make something that still has a future. There was a very heavy top down management style with a municipal pedigree.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I was happy to read your personal interpretation of events at MRW, First etc - until you got to make that statement 'I have nothing but praise for Sir Moir Lockhead'.......

Not only that but the corporate vision. This would the vision that resulted in the business having to undertake a rights issue to avoid having its stock downgraded to junk status that, had it had happened, would have jeopardised the ongoing operation of large parts of the business.

Surely this assertation is a travesty of the memory of Messers. Shire, Power and Sinclair? Are you really saying that Midland Red was established in 1904 and has been in decline (for 116 years) ever since? No Golden Years of expanding the company in the 20s & 30s? I think a more accurate statement might be that Midland Red has been operating for 116 years, with the last 66 (or so) in terminal decline.

Indeed, as with most of the old established bus companies, there was the growth period up until the mid 1950s. The reasons why the decline set in are well known but affected the entire industry.

So onto Mr Jones, who I note has changed his location from Blackheath to Worcestershire to bolster his local credentials!

The management of Diamond Bus being based locally in Tividale are currently doing a far better job of operating services in Worcestershire

Well....difficult to really know what to say. I mean, they are certainly more profitable but in terms of other metrics? There are the official measures....like the bus passenger survey where Diamond in Worcestershire recorded the lowest (and by some distance) customer satisfaction. Or the appearances in front of the TC who ordered Diamond to provide a free service on one route to recompense passengers for the abysmal service. More subjectively, there is experiencing the service itself... or discussing with fellow passengers whose experiences would seem to underpin the official metrics.

I note the acquisition figures you post. New asset investment on paper do not reflect the actual costs of day to day operations of the assets by the company simply its NBV. The 119 new buses taken onto the Balance Sheet were dominated by Denis Lance's part of wider order placed by Badgerline Holdings the MRW examples were primarily for Centro operated routes & interurban services and arrived in two batches together with N reg Denis Darts and one of the first "Super Low Floor" examples in the country suitabily liveried. These were eventually completely written down and proved a great asset to the company. A small number of other vehicles were sourced and financed by Centro to thier specifically for requirements together with later vehicles supported by Worcestershire & Herefordshire County Councils in partnership.

Well, yes. Quite right, new assets will sit on the balance sheet, they will be depreciated and written down and this will be reflected in the P&L. Nothing revolutionary there. Doesn't really get away from the fact that new vehicle investment reduced, much of it was supported by local authorities and then stopped for 10 years.

I acknowledge the gross margin the company achieved from 1996 to 2001. The average margins from 2002 to 2007 reflected a major reduction in passenger numbers and the loss of many key contracts to lower cost operators such as Pete's Travel and a major revision of local authority funding requirements.

Again, its the major reduction in passenger numbers. Recognise certain routes have been affected by rail investment. However, it is noteworthy that the "major reduction in passenger numbers" was not (aside from the first year of First ownership) accompanied by a major reduction in turnover. A telling metric in itself.

I am not aware that the Stagecoach owned companies you quoted faced similar levels of local competition in the local market which First Midland Red had to sustain with its higher labour costs and conditions that its rival operators. Stagecoach itself reduced I believe its Herefordshire services in this period

That's because they didn't experience competition and for a good reason. They weren't pushing up prices exponentially, they managed their cost base rigorously and they don't entertain competition. First Midland Red didn't have to entertain competition; it happened because of failures in First's approach across the UK.

Also, you are incorrect in relation to Stagecoach in Herefordshire. The depot at Ross transferred to West from Wales, the core services remain broadly the same, only in recent years have some been pruned as support for evening journeys was withdrawn, and in fact, there was a increase following the purchase of Dukes Travel adding addition services in the Coleford and Ross areas. And of course, Stagecoach have continued to invest in new vehicles for such routes as Gloucester to Hereford.

With much changed demographics, increased railway investment, the high level of car ownership and the changing regulatory nature of the industry and national and local government working from within the company unlike yourself I do not accept on any account the decline of the company is wholly attributed to FirstGroup whose goal in a changing and challenging market was primarily was to Transform Travel.

Well, we agree as I've never wholly attributed it to First. As I have said, the approach of Worcestershire CC is one aspect, and then there are the wider industry issues of increased car ownership, congestion etc or indeed those factors such as PSVAR compliance, changes to pensions etc. However, the decline of First Midland Red is far in excess of other comparable businesses.

Interesting you say that. From where I sat Moir Lockhead took First on a "market share at any price" spending spree for which his successors are trying to make something that still has a future. There was a very heavy top down management style with a municipal pedigree.

Hmmm.... Speak to some people who were at First then and why they left? It was the bombastic management ethos and the need to hit ever more difficult margin expectations when the business was heading the wrong way.

 

[rcro]

This thread has inspired me to join to as I lived through the decline of Midland Red West too...

Things were clearly on a downward trajectory through the late 1990s and I thought this was down to staff shortages that led to the first cut backs in Kidderminster/Redditch/WM. Then as Ken Mills was retiring came a steady cycle of six-monthly cutbacks to the minibus services (from 6 per hour, to 5, to 4, to 3, to 2, (and some down to 1...) coupled with above inflation fare rises. Every change led to a cut in usage - and the average loadings on the buses (that I saw) went down after each revision, and the last buses kept getting earlier. It became cheaper and far more convenient to just drive or walk, so those that could abandoned the buses completely. Whilst the local authority may not be *totally* supportive (why is it that local authorities are more engaged with public transport in Stagecoach areas?), I get the impression that First got their sums wrong with the Varios and then assumed more people would put up and shut up with the service cuts/fare rises rather than start driving instead.

(Incidentally I feel Worcester is now being treated as a lost cause - throwing all the most expensive to run fleet in their to consolidate losses in one place. A load of end of life Darts/Solos would have a lot more chance of breaking even or bringing in a profit than a load of end of life Citaros!)

 

[richardjones21]

Not only that but the corporate vision. This would the vision that resulted in the business having to undertake a rights issue to avoid having its stock downgraded to junk status that, had it had happened, would have jeopardised the ongoing operation of large parts of the business.



Indeed, as with most of the old established bus companies, there was the growth period up until the mid 1950s. The reasons why the decline set in are well known but affected the entire industry.

So onto Mr Jones, who I note has changed his location from Blackheath to Worcestershire to bolster his local credentials!



Well....difficult to really know what to say. I mean, they are certainly more profitable but in terms of other metrics? There are the official measures....like the bus passenger survey where Diamond in Worcestershire recorded the lowest (and by some distance) customer satisfaction. Or the appearances in front of the TC who ordered Diamond to provide a free service on one route to recompense passengers for the abysmal service. More subjectively, there is experiencing the service itself... or discussing with fellow passengers whose experiences would seem to underpin the official metrics.



Well, yes. Quite right, new assets will sit on the balance sheet, they will be depreciated and written down and this will be reflected in the P&L. Nothing revolutionary there. Doesn't really get away from the fact that new vehicle investment reduced, much of it was supported by local authorities and then stopped for 10 years.



Again, its the major reduction in passenger numbers. Recognise certain routes have been affected by rail investment. However, it is noteworthy that the "major reduction in passenger numbers" was not (aside from the first year of First ownership) accompanied by a major reduction in turnover. A telling metric in itself.



That's because they didn't experience competition and for a good reason. They weren't pushing up prices exponentially, they managed their cost base rigorously and they don't entertain competition. First Midland Red didn't have to entertain competition; it happened because of failures in First's approach across the UK.

Also, you are incorrect in relation to Stagecoach in Herefordshire. The depot at Ross transferred to West from Wales, the core services remain broadly the same, only in recent years have some been pruned as support for evening journeys was withdrawn, and in fact, there was a increase following the purchase of Dukes Travel adding addition services in the Coleford and Ross areas. And of course, Stagecoach have continued to invest in new vehicles for such routes as Gloucester to Hereford.



Well, we agree as I've never wholly attributed it to First. As I have said, the approach of Worcestershire CC is one aspect, and then there are the wider industry issues of increased car ownership, congestion etc or indeed those factors such as PSVAR compliance, changes to pensions etc. However, the decline of First Midland Red is far in excess of other comparable businesses.



Hmmm.... Speak to some people who were at First then and why they left? It was the bombastic management ethos and the need to hit ever more difficult margin expectations when the business was heading the wrong way.

I get the impression for mysterious reasons unclear in your posts you are not a fan of FirstGroup one of the country's largest employers and now of course running the West Coast Mainline and HS2 in the future. It is interesting to note that you base your posts on the corporate strategy of FirstGroup which I do not recognize in any form and are now curious to your background in the industry as you appear an expert on mine?. Management decisions at MRW were mostly taken locally until Heron Lodge closed albeit in line with procedures laid down by the PLC.

As for myself how do you know how long I was with the company before heading to pastures new and for your information have been involved with them in a regulatory manor until March 2020. I was born in Edgbaston, bought up in Blackheath my part was in Worcestershire until 1974 worked in Worcestershire throughout my career with Midland Red West & in no way need to bolster my credentials to be honest that remark is not worthy of your standing on the forum I changed it in order for it not to be mistaken with Blackheath in London.

Perhaps other of employees of First have differing views, the rail enhancements in the West Midlands have been phased over the last twenty years and the nature of accountancy is the reflection of changes in net inflows that are reflected in later year end accounts. As for Stagecoach I remember MRW winning some journeys on tender taking the company to Ross On Wye which I was referring too.

My point about Diamond Bus contained the word "currently " the situation you describe about the company is somewhat historic in nature and has been addressed to the satisfaction of OfTC.

I do not accept your perception and analysis of First Midland Red and are very proud of what the company achieved over the years operating in a very tough trading environment its unfortunate you didn't use its services more and would be able to respect the high quality service the hard working staff achieved for its customers in Worcestershire I am very proud of them all many of which are still friends today.

 

[richardjones21]

This thread has inspired me to join to as I lived through the decline of Midland Red West too...

Things were clearly on a downward trajectory through the late 1990s and I thought this was down to staff shortages that led to the first cut backs in Kidderminster/Redditch/WM. Then as Ken Mills was retiring came a steady cycle of six-monthly cutbacks to the minibus services (from 6 per hour, to 5, to 4, to 3, to 2, (and some down to 1...) coupled with above inflation fare rises. Every change led to a cut in usage - and the average loadings on the buses (that I saw) went down after each revision, and the last buses kept getting earlier. It became cheaper and far more convenient to just drive or walk, so those that could abandoned the buses completely. Whilst the local authority may not be *totally* supportive (why is it that local authorities are more engaged with public transport in Stagecoach areas?), I get the impression that First got their sums wrong with the Varios and then assumed more people would put up and shut up with the service cuts/fare rises rather than start driving instead.

(Incidentally I feel Worcester is now being treated as a lost cause - throwing all the most expensive to run fleet in their to consolidate losses in one place. A load of end of life Darts/Solos would have a lot more chance of breaking even or bringing in a profit than a load of end of life Citaros!)

I fully agree with all the points raised above argued in a clear concise manner I too remember well all the above points which are fully accurate.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I get the impression for mysterious reasons unclear in your posts you are not a fan of FirstGroup one of the country's largest employers and now of course running the West Coast Mainline and HS2 in the future. It is interesting to note that you base your posts on the corporate strategy of FirstGroup which I do not recognise. Management and decisions was mostly taken locally until Heron Lodge closed albeit in line with procedures laid down by the PLC.

As for myself I was born in Edgbaston, bought up in Blackheath my part was in Worcestershire until 1974 worked in Worcestershire throughout my career with Midland Red West & in no way need to bolster my credentials to be honest that remark is not worthy of your standing on the forum I changed it in order for it not to be mistaken with Blackheath in London.

Perhaps other of employees of First have differing views, the rail enhancements in the West Midlands have been phased over the last twenty years and the nature of accountancy is the reflection of changes in net inflows that are reflected in later year end accounts. As for Stagecoach I remember MRW winning some journeys on tender taking the company to Ross On Wye which I was referring too.

My point about Diamond Bus contained the word "currently " the situation you describe about the company is somewhat historic in nature and has been addressed to the satisfaction of OfTC.

I do not accept your perception and analysis of First Midland Red and are very proud of what the company achieved over the years operating in a very tough trading environment its unfortunate you didn't use its services more and would be able to respect the high quality service the hard working staff achieved for its customers in Worcestershire I am very proud of them all many of which are still friends today.

I am a shareholder in First Group. I have several friends who do, or who have worked, for First Group in their bus and rail divisions. I certainly do not have any axe to grind with First Group but even the most ardent apologist would have trouble explaining the facts that culminated in a rights issue to largely protect its investment grade.

The facts on Diamond are hardly ancient history; the TC public enquiry was June to August 2018 and remedial action in 2019. The survey results relate to late 2019, albeit showing an increase from 2018, and show that Diamond Worcestershire is still one of the worst regarded operators in the country.

I find it almost impossible to comprehend how rose tinted you are interpreting the facts on First. By any metric, having a business going from

• 5 to 1 operating locations
• A substantial decline in patronage
• An absence of new vehicle investment for 10 years (after a period of almost minimal investment during the previous 6)
• Moving from industry standard profit margins to being a loss maker

I'm sorry - struggle to see the positive aspects in those. A comparison with Midland Red South makes rather sobering reading.

ps I did use the services. Hence the ability to compare. Some of us haven't always lived in Somerset

 

[baza585]

Watching this thread with great interest as someone who lived in the West Midlands in the 70s & 80s when Midland Red as it then was, struggled operationally and financially both before and after the transfer of buses and routes to WMPTE. I will try very hard not to cover old ground.......

One possible factor not yet mentioned in the debate is the early experiment in deregulation in Hereford, which no doubt left MRW with significant competition from a variety of operations, some more long-term than others.

As for the Lochhead era, a perfect example of value destruction caused by poorly researched takeovers (I can't recall what he paid for Cawlett but I doubt they have even broken even since), a personality clash with Smallwood who was a much better manager than Lochhead, and some grandiose white elephant schemes (FTR). These combined with ill-judged forays into the US served to starve the UK bus business of capital, which no doubt contributed to the decline of FMR to its current state.

And yes I too hold shares in FGP; until recently I was even showing a profit........

 

[rcro]

I fully agree with all the points raised above argued in a clear concise manner I too remember well all the above points which are fully accurate.

Before you go too far with agreeing with me...

I'll say that Midland Red West did a hell of a lot of things right, and were rightly praised and recognised (see marketing) - and I suspect they were responsible for kicking H&WCC into order in the early 1990s as the transport policy became suddenly more switched on. Despite expensive fares, there was a lot of goodwill with the travelling public, and over this side, even Yeomans struggled to take appreciable numbers away when they challenged the established MRW routes.

That all changed c. late 2000, when the repeated cuts to frequencies, evening services, routes began withering away the network whilst the fares were shooting up. The Worcester Evening News effectively declared war on First, rightly so, with little come back - the letters section became filled with criticism most weeks (and unlike the Bristol Evening Post - this was much more justified).

From 2002 the marketing and PR had seemingly gone, customer services stopped responding to complaints (I'm still waiting for some replies...), and the general public had been completely alienated and antagonised. There was no goodwill left - and I would assume that is wholly down to First's management post-Ken.

The attention to detail then fell away.
The 2004 "Overground" launch had the wrong buses with the wrong branding - so they all had to be rebranded two weeks later, the branding covered the "First" logos on the varios as it was too long, and 2 months later the services got cut and fares went up so half the window vinyls got peeled off...
The timetables for those September cuts weren't proof read - my route was changed to go via Knightswick, Whitebourne, Bromsgrove, Stone Lacy and Whittington, amongst others, and worse so - 100% of the bus times were more than 20 minutes wrong! The Worcester bus station timetables weren't corrected for a week - despite the stop being directly in front of the inspector's preferred smoking spot.
Shortly after the "modern" Varios went for tatty but comfortable agricultural Darts in various colours - which shook, squealed, and had a habit of cutting out in neutral. Of course the fares went up again, and the frequencies came down.

I'd say by 2005 irreparable damage had been done - the First brand had been completely tarnished by combination of management errors and press coverage, and the public felt that they were being treated with contempt. I think there was a change of management again around then and generally some stability - nothing spectacular but no significant further decline until the money ran out completely in 2012.

Much is said for how it's difficult territory with an apathetic local authority. I would say Worcestershire is the way it is because for most of the 2000s 95% of the services were run by an apathetic bus company - encouraging a "don't care" attitude all round. Herefordshire has a similar hopeless council, and much worse bus territory - yet things seem a bit more joined up and switched on. Note that since the 192 was binned in 2002, First had been a minority operator in Herefordshire...

 

[richardjones21]

I am a shareholder in First Group. I have several friends who do, or who have worked, for First Group in their bus and rail divisions. I certainly do not have any axe to grind with First Group but even the most ardent apologist would have trouble explaining the facts that culminated in a rights issue to largely protect its investment grade.

The facts on Diamond are hardly ancient history; the TC public enquiry was June to August 2018 and remedial action in 2019. The survey results relate to late 2019, albeit showing an increase from 2018, and show that Diamond Worcestershire is still one of the worst regarded operators in the country.

I find it almost impossible to comprehend how rose tinted you are interpreting the facts on First. By any metric, having a business going from

• 5 to 1 operating locations
• A substantial decline in patronage
• An absence of new vehicle investment for 10 years (after a period of almost minimal investment during the previous 6)
• Moving from industry standard profit margins to being a loss maker

I'm sorry - struggle to see the positive aspects in those. A comparison with Midland Red South makes rather sobering reading.

ps I did use the services. Hence the ability to compare. Some of us haven't always lived in Somerset

And your points in relation to First Midland Red Buses Limited are what exactly?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

And your points in relation to First Midland Red Buses Limited are what exactly?

Er.....I was responding to your points but as you asked....

Perhaps the bit when I mentioned having a business in MRW going from

• 5 to 1 operating locations
• A substantial decline in patronage
• An absence of new vehicle investment for 10 years (after a period of almost minimal investment during the previous 6)
• Moving from industry standard profit margins to being a loss maker

If that's a story of positivity, I commend your optimistic nature.