Theresa May calls General Election on 8th June.

[Arglwydd Golau]

That sounds a bit like special pleading to me. As far as I've understood this bit of the conversation, you suggested that critics of Corbyn have (unfairly) been given airtime recently in a way that critics of Blair (such as Corbyn) weren't given 10-15 years ago. Then someone posted counter examples to show Blair-critics were in fact often given airtime (albeit maybe not as often as Labour 'moderates' have been over the last two years). And your response appears to be to provide excuses for ignoring those counter-examples - that seems to me not far off looking for excuses to ignore evidence!

Might I suggest that one reason Corbyn critics have received a lot of airtime is that there are so many of them - arguably the majority of Labour MPs. One or two MPs disagreeing with their leader = minor(ish) news depending on the circumstances. 100 MPs disagreeing with their leader = very significant news.

Personally, I don't doubt that much of the media is biased against Labour, and will find excuses to report inaccurately, and not to give people in Labour a fair hearing. But that doesn't mean that every time someone is interviewed who disagrees with Corbyn, it must be because of media bias. Even an impartial media is going to have to give airtime to all different opinions at some point! And it does slightly worry me that many Corbyn supporters (I'm talking generally here, not particularly aimed at you) do seem to interpret it that way every time a story unfavourable to Corbyn appears.

Ok, quick reply as I'm off out. Corbyn was elected leader fair and square by the rules that the Labour Party has - twice. It has been said many times that the Labour MP's do not reflect the will of members of the Party. My view is that they should have given more backing to the Leader and not been firing off tweets, quotes and generally hiring themselves out to anyone who will print a story. Shows great disrespect to the membership of the party. (It seems it's fashionable nowadays to want to reverse a result that one doesn't like!)
I don't think that the examples that jcollins gave were treating like with like. (you may disagree).
The media gave Mandelson plenty of airtime when he said he was working hard every day to undermine Corbyn, is that really fair? Did Corbyn or any of the other rebels say something similar about Blair? Again, showing total lack of respect for the membership.

 

[DarloRich]

Funny how we are supposed to show corbyn better loyalty than he has ever shown to any previously elected labour leader

 

[AlterEgo]

Your definition of a good leader is something that people have been missing recently. I completely agree with you that a good leader is one who can implement their policies well.

People say that Corbyn is not a leader, yet he seems to be an honest man who will stick to his word and implement the policies that his party proposes. Apparently Theresa May is a 'strong leader' despite the fact that she and several members of her cabinet have a track record of doing U-turns on policies. We know that anything May proposes as policy in the run-up to the election is actually touch and go as to whether she sticks to it or not. We need to at least give Corbyn a chance to propose policies that the whole Shadow Cabinet can get behind before we accuse him of anything.

There's two answers to this post.

The most reductive is that a leader is only a leader if they can get people to follow them. Corbyn is on course for complete electoral destruction, because he can't get his own MPs, or floating voters, onside.

The less reductive answer is that Corbyn doesn't exhibit the traits of a good leader. An intellectual purist is just that, and not necessarily a leader (and in my view intellectual purists rarely become leaders or heads of state unless by force or subterfuge). A good leader is open to compromise, is a good communicator, a seller of ideas, a people person, a listener, a charmer, a decision maker, and an authority figure. Authority can come in many forms. Corbyn doesn't have authority. He is a weak and ineffectual leader who, I'm afraid to say, won't ever be PM. Too many of his policies are irrelevant or alienate too many floating voters. Crucially, regardless of what his policies are, I don't believe Corbyn has the authority to be a good party leader never mind the head of our government.

I respect Corbyn and quite a few of his principles align with my own, particularly on conflict, minority rights, Ireland, the management of the super-wealthy, and so on.

But he is a weak man. No vote.

 

[DarloRich]

So you think he's unelectable, but you do admire some of his policies, while at the same time decrying the policies the tories are using to further their own agenda to the cost of 90% of the country.
Surely those policies themselves are enough to persuade you to vote for him, why would you vote to threaten your livelihood, standard of living and community? it makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever

Can you not see how having no chance of winning makes anything he says pointless - the electorate think he is a joke and reject him - you see it time and again when taking to people - they like the polices but not the man: he has no credibility outside of his £3 army and will deliver a resounding defeat

 

[Bald Rick]

There's two answers to this post.

The most reductive is that a leader is only a leader if they can get people to follow them. Corbyn is on course for complete electoral destruction, because he can't get his own MPs, or floating voters, onside.

The less reductive answer is that Corbyn doesn't exhibit the traits of a good leader. An intellectual purist is just that, and not necessarily a leader (and in my view intellectual purists rarely become leaders or heads of state unless by force or subterfuge). A good leader is open to compromise, is a good communicator, a seller of ideas, a people person, a listener, a charmer, a decision maker, and an authority figure. Authority can come in many forms. Corbyn doesn't have authority. He is a weak and ineffectual leader who, I'm afraid to say, won't ever be PM. Too many of his policies are irrelevant or alienate too many floating voters. Crucially, regardless of what his policies are, I don't believe Corbyn has the authority to be a good party leader never mind the head of our government.

I respect Corbyn and quite a few of his principles align with my own, particularly on conflict, minority rights, Ireland, the management of the super-wealthy, and so on.

But he is a weak man. No vote.

Knowing a few people who have met the chap, he's also a bit bonkers.

 

[507021]

No matter which political party it is, there will always be members and MPs who don't like the current leader. There's no doubt in my mind that there's plenty of Tory, UKIP and Lib Dem voters who don't like their respective party leaders either.

Tim Farron refusing to rule out a coalition with the Tories has just lost them my potential vote, seeing as I was actually considering voting for them this time around. He clearly hasn't learned what going into coalition with the Tories did to his party's support last time around.

That just leaves the Green Party, Labour or an Independent candidate (if one stands in my constistuency) in the running for my vote now.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Meanwhile, Michael "Pob" Gove has just appeared on Channel 4 News with a big bogey hanging out of his left nostril. I'm all about the silver linings...

As I'm a Labour party member, that's probably where my vote will go. I can't see a Labour victory in a month of Sundays though.

 

[southern442]

I wish people would stop complaining that Corbyn isn't going to win when they won't even vote for him despite agreeing with what he says.

 

[southern442]

Tim Farron refusing to rule out a coalition with the Tories has just lost them my potential vote, seeing as I was actually considering voting for them this time around. He clearly hasn't learned what going into coalition with the Tories did to his party's support last time around.

The thing that stops me having sympathy for the Lib Dems is Farron. A good speaker, but he can be very slimy and I've also heard allegations of homophobia from several sources.

 

[J-2739]

Meanwhile, Michael "Pob" Gove has just appeared on Channel 4 News with a big bogey hanging out of his left nostril. I'm all about the silver linings...

As I'm a Labour party member, that's probably where my vote will go. I can't see a Labour victory in a month of Sundays though.

Haha, is there any footage? I've got to watch it!

I wish people would stop complaining that Corbyn isn't going to win when they won't even vote for him despite agreeing with what he says.

Even people within his party disagree with him, and that's telling something.

If they agreed with what he says, then surely, they'd vote for him? But no.

 

[northwichcat]

The thing that stops me having sympathy for the Lib Dems is Farron. A good speaker, but he can be very slimy and I've also heard allegations of homophobia from several sources.

Media witch hunt.

The Lib Dems helped make gay marriage legal but Farron is a traditional Christian so if he speaks out in favour of gay marriage he'll offend some in his church, while if he speaks out against it he'll offend some in his party. He chooses not to answer questions saying if he supports gay marriage - which aren't really relevant given it's legal and he's not announced any plan to change that. Why not ask him about tax or education instead?

 

[Morgsie]

Farron and LGBTQI+ views has come up again and his response to an openly Gay Tory MP today was this to quote 'I don't think being gay is a sin' and there is a video of this on the BBC News website. The Acting Chair of the LGBTQI+ Lib Dem's has made a blog post on this issue somewhere

I have many friends within the Party that are LGBTQI+ and I am not sure what their views on this are

 

[northwichcat]

No matter which political party it is, there will always be members and MPs who don't like the current leader. There's no doubt in my mind that there's plenty of Tory, UKIP and Lib Dem voters who don't like their respective party leaders either.

Tim Farron refusing to rule out a coalition with the Tories has just lost them my potential vote, seeing as I was actually considering voting for them this time around. He clearly hasn't learned what going into coalition with the Tories did to his party's support last time around.

That just leaves the Green Party, Labour or an Independent candidate (if one stands in my constistuency) in the running for my vote now.

There's a long list of conditions which would have to be fulfilled for a coalition to even be considered e.g. if the Conservatives don't get a majority but they agree to remaining in the single market and agree to other Lib Dem proposals. The chance of it happening is probably as likely as the Queen formally making Corbyn PM of a Labour majority government. Some Labour MPs have said if they do get a majority they will vote against their own party forming a government led by Corbyn - has anything like that happened in the history of elections?

 

[Bevan Price]

I think that all those parties who want to stop the tories winning need to put Brexit aside as just a minor sideshow. It is the future of the economy and NHS that matters to most people. And concentrate on some of the tory lies.

Do we really want another 5 years of austerity ?

The tories claim to aim for "lower taxes" when what they really mean is lower income taxes, especially for the "more afflent", and lower business taxes on some industries that could well afford to pay more.

They have encouraged councils to increase council tax, to compensate for the "lost" central funds they have stolen from local councils, causing huge problems over social care.

They say not a word when councils introduce "taxes" on collection of recyclable waste.

And I almost forgot to mention their increase in VAT, which took a lot more money, even from those too poor to pay any income tax.

What next ? Visit your doctor tax, to pay for their inadequate NHS funding ?

"Compulsory" voluntary parental contributions for school books, etc. ?

Closure of at least 90% of local libraries ?

Whatever the agreed limitations of Labour, suffering another 5 years of Tory rule is a recipe for disaster for the less affluent.

 

[Bald Rick]

Regarding the tax thing, I'm not sure how much sympathy I can have. If you earn £70k then that puts you in the top roughly 6% of earners in the country. I'd say that gives you an obligation to help those who aren't anywhere near as fortunate. Hell I earn less than half that but think we do need to increase tax a few percent, as long as that actually goes where it is needed to go (which I wouldn't trust a Tory government, who is specifically starving schools and the NHS of funding, to do).

This BBC article is interesting. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39641222

Too long to paste in full, but in short it shows that the proportion of total income tax take paid by the top 1% and top 10% of earners has been steadily increasing. As of last year, the top 10% of earners paid almost 60% of all income tax.

 

[northwichcat]

Robert Peston has said the 2015 Conservative manifesto has 84 pages of promises they've now given up on attempting to deliver.

 

[507021]

I wish people would stop complaining that Corbyn isn't going to win when they won't even vote for him despite agreeing with what he says.

Totally agree, 100%.

The thing that stops me having sympathy for the Lib Dems is Farron. A good speaker, but he can be very slimy and I've also heard allegations of homophobia from several sources.

That's another reason why I won't vote for the Liberal Democrats in the future. I'll admit I liked Nick Clegg, and had I been old enough to vote in the 2010 election then I would have voted for his party. What I do think could be interesting is if the Liberal Democrats don't win at least 20 or 30 seats on top of what they have now, will Tim Farron stay as leader?

Some Labour MPs have said if they do get a majority they will vote against their own party forming a government led by Corbyn - has anything like that happened in the history of elections?

If that were to happen, then it would be more fool them because they'd be the ones denying the country the Labour/Labour-led Government which it voted for (theoretically, that is) by voting against their own leader. If they don't like Jeremy Corbyn, then the simple solution is to let someone else stand in their place in the upcoming election instead.

 

[northwichcat]

You don't vote for the PM, you vote for an MP, which is why we didn't get an election when Blair or Cameron stood down. If Labour won and Corbyn had to stand down on health grounds the day after the election, would you want another general election?

 

[Busaholic]

You don't vote for the PM, you vote for an MP, which is why we didn't get an election when Blair or Cameron stood down. If Labour won and Corbyn had to stand down on health grounds the day after the election, would you want another general election?

If Labour won, then Corbyn's standing down would surely be caused by a new medical phenomenon :- heart attack caused by incredulity.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is not very often that you see political parties in either Opposition or "The Wilderness" who have been decrying all things Government-inspired, with comments being thrown around on how they would do better, suddenly complaining that the PM had broken a promise not to call a General Election early.

You would have thought that those other parties would take delight in seeing an opportunity to put the present Government out of power and to put their own manifestos before the electorate.

 

[gareth950]

I think that all those parties who want to stop the tories winning need to put Brexit aside as just a minor sideshow. It is the future of the economy and NHS that matters to most people. And concentrate on some of the tory lies.

Do we really want another 5 years of austerity ?

The tories claim to aim for "lower taxes" when what they really mean is lower income taxes, especially for the "more afflent", and lower business taxes on some industries that could well afford to pay more.

They have encouraged councils to increase council tax, to compensate for the "lost" central funds they have stolen from local councils, causing huge problems over social care.

They say not a word when councils introduce "taxes" on collection of recyclable waste.

And I almost forgot to mention their increase in VAT, which took a lot more money, even from those too poor to pay any income tax.

What next ? Visit your doctor tax, to pay for their inadequate NHS funding ?

"Compulsory" voluntary parental contributions for school books, etc. ?

Closure of at least 90% of local libraries ?

Whatever the agreed limitations of Labour, suffering another 5 years of Tory rule is a recipe for disaster for the less affluent.

I'd say that the NHS in England will be ripe for privatisation in the next 5 years if May gets her majority. It's the last major part of the welfare state that is left to fully privatise and the Tories hate it. You already have private firms providing many core health services in England 'on behalf of the NHS', for example Virgin Care in Bath and NE Somerset providing primary care services in the area. https://www.theguardian.com/society...ct-200-nhs-social-care-services-bath-somerset.

May isn't just pushing for a hard brexit just to please her frothing backbenchers. If we get a raw deal from the EU, she can blame it all on the EU and make them out to be the nasty bad guys, whilst our economy is turned into a tax haven off of Europe and public services are starved of funds and decimated. It's all part of the Tory grand plan.

You have to laugh at her strapline 'stability and security'. That's EXACTLY what Cameron and Osborne were pledging in 2015 and we are now in the greatest political and constitutional crisis since World War 2.

If May gets a majority, a hard brexit with the public getting no further say on the deal is inevitable, which will almost certainly lead to the break up of the UK.
Scotland will demand another independence referendum and will most likely vote yes to independence.
The government in Northern Ireland has already collapsed - this General Election is being held whilst they are still trying to form a power sharing govt there from the recent Stormont elections! If Sinn Fein continue their gains there they will demand a border poll on a United Ireland to avoid a hard brexit border.
Wales will be just be forgotten in the chaos unless Plaid Cymru can make a miraculous SNP style surge.
And the economy will dive as the disaster of leaving the single market becomes clear.

How's that for 'stability and security' Theresa? And the right wing newspapers will make out it's all the EU's fault.

 

[AlterEgo]

I wish people would stop complaining that Corbyn isn't going to win when they won't even vote for him despite agreeing with what he says.

You can wish all you like but we all know deep down he is incapable of delivering any policy, thanks to his complete lack of authority over his MPs.

You have millions of floating votes who feel the same. Be a purist all you like, but it'll resign you to being on the opposition benches. But at least you'll be "right on".

 

[Y961 XBU]

I live in a very safe Labour Seat but i vote Green Party, last election the Green Candidate here put up a good case about the NHS and won some support as it turned out he was a Doctor at the local Emergency hospital!

I can see a lot of tactical voting going on here to kick Torys off seats, places like Lewes, Eastbourne and Twickenham will vote Lib Dems since they are only slightly behind the torys (they was Lib Dem seats until 2015) I also have a feeling that the Greens will win Birstol West

 

[EM2]

You can wish all you like but we all know deep down he is incapable of delivering any policy, thanks to his complete lack of authority over his MPs.

http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/10-pledges
If Labour MPs feel unable to support these policies, they shouldn't be Labour MPs.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Funny how we are supposed to show corbyn better loyalty than he has ever shown to any previously elected labour leader

See my earlier post! Didn't matter a hoot cos Blair had such a big majority, and their was actually only a handful of 'rebels'

 

[DynamicSpirit]

http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/10-pledges
If Labour MPs feel unable to support these policies, they shouldn't be Labour MPs.

Those pledges look pretty good. There are a couple that I'd have minor quibbles with - you're never going to agree with a party or a programme on everything - but on the whole, they look like good aims for a Government to have, and ones that I'd feel proud to campaign for a party that is offering them.

But what makes you think there are Labour MPs who wouldn't (on the whole) support them (which seems to be implied by your post?). Seems a bit unlikely to me.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Leaving aside the current party leaders for a minute (hard, I know!) do you think that we are now too fixated on the leader of the party? It wasn't always thus in my lifetime. When did it change? During the Thatcher years?

 

[EM2]

But what makes you think there are Labour MPs who wouldn't (on the whole) support them (which seems to be implied by your post?). Seems a bit unlikely to me.

There seems to be a groundswell of opinion that a large number of Labour MPs don't support their leader. Those are the pledges of said leader.
If MPs do not support him, ergo they do not support his pledges.
If they do support his pledges, ergo they support him.

So, if

they look like good aims for a Government to have, and ones that I'd feel proud to campaign for a party that is offering them

why would people (not you) still not vote for Labour with Corbyn as leader if these are his pledges and they agree with them?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Leaving aside the current party leaders for a minute (hard, I know!) do you think that we are now too fixated on the leader of the party? It wasn't always thus in my lifetime. When did it change? During the Thatcher years?

I always used to think we had President Blair...

 

[Moonshot]

Leaving aside the current party leaders for a minute (hard, I know!) do you think that we are now too fixated on the leader of the party? It wasn't always thus in my lifetime. When did it change? During the Thatcher years?

I would say yes.....but of course media exposure nowadays is so much more widespread in the age of the internet.