Todmorden Curve

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If he is, then they aren't very long. The unused island platform (overall) is a rotated copy of the one currently in use, but for some reason the Manchester bays on the unused one are much shorter than platform 2 is.

The redundant Manchester-facing bay platform that was at the former Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway station at Oldham Mumps was also of no great length, being just long enough to accomodate a tank engine and two or three non-corridor coaches for the short service to Manchester.

 

[Geeves]

Traveled past said curve a few times recently. Seems to be not much happening... Anybody know the current state of play?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Traveled past said curve a few times recently. Seems to be not much happening... Anybody know the current state of play?

Out to tender for GRIP 4 to 8 (detailed design to construction). The recent de-vegging was to allow the surveyors in.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has anyone yet an answer to a question that I asked much earlier in this thread...

"What will happen to the redundant abandoned goods yard trackwork nearer to Todmorden station "?

 

[PR1Berske]

Out to tender for GRIP 4 to 8 (detailed design to construction). The recent de-vegging was to allow the surveyors in.

So the answer to the question really is "There's not going to be a re-opened Todmorden curve"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Out to tender for GRIP 4 to 8 (detailed design to construction). The recent de-vegging was to allow the surveyors in.

Would this period of "tender submission" be in the programming timetable that was put into motion once the project had been approved. If this is the case, since the rail curve is but only a part of the total financial grant package, will the tendering process for the restoration works of "The Weavers Triangle" at Burnley be running concurrently with that of the Todmorden rail curve ?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Would this period of "tender submission" be in the programming timetable that was put into motion once the project had been approved. If this is the case, since the rail curve is but only a part of the total financial grant package, will the tendering process for the restoration works of "The Weavers Triangle" at Burnley be running concurrently with that of the Todmorden rail curve ?

First part - correct. This is all perfectly normal. The announcement of funding will be based on the feasibility and estimated of the proposal, not the minutae of the design. There would be no point spending tens of thousands of pounds designing a scheme and tendering with a contractor (who take a very dark view of being messed about) only to discover you can't afford it. Also, the railway is one of the more regulated industries (on a par with Nuclear) so there are many regulatory and governance hoops to jump through to get a design approved - this is never done speculatively. (yes, there are projects that have not adhered to this process, but they rarely turn out well for any party involved).

Second part - I don't know, but I'll try and find out.

 

[Sox]

First part - correct. This is all perfectly normal. The announcement of funding will be based on the feasibility and estimated of the proposal, not the minutae of the design. There would be no point spending hundreds of thousands of pounds designing a scheme and tendering with a contractor (who take a very dark view of being messed about) only to discover you can't afford it. Also, the railway is one of the more regulated industries (on a par with Nuclear) so there are many regulatory and governance hoops to jump through to get a design approved - this is never done speculatively. (yes, there are projects that have not adhered to this process, but they rarely turn out well for any party involved).

Second part - I don't know, but I'll try and find out.

corrected (probably)!

 

[Joseph_Locke]

corrected (probably)!

a) Cynic
b) Not in my view, but hey, what do I know?

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Rochdale Station seems like a prime candidate for some kind of resurrection as part of the Northern Hub. Currently all services use the former down island, with one of the two bays remaining at the down end, albeit with no use after the end of services via the Oldham Loop.

But the station has a second island platform which was formerly used for up services, and as far as I can tell no development has taken its space away - its a long island of trees inbetween the remaining island and Miall Street.

I mentioned that it also had a pair of south-facing bays used for the services to Bolton and Bury. EVen if not very long they would probably do for turnback units, and I imagine that having been abandoned since 1979 that some rebuilding would be done!

A final aside. I imagine that if Manchester commuters from Milrow, Newhey and Shaw come back with the opening of Metrolink they will grow to love the walk betweren Rochdale BR and Rochdale Metrolink. The journey to Manchester all the way round the loop with its 400 stops will probably be slower than a change in Rochdale onto an express even with the walk at this "interchange"

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Rochdale Station seems like a prime candidate for some kind of resurrection as part of the Northern Hub. Currently all services use the former down island, with one of the two bays remaining at the down end, albeit with no use after the end of services via the Oldham Loop.

But the station has a second island platform which was formerly used for up services, and as far as I can tell no development has taken its space away - its a long island of trees inbetween the remaining island and Miall Street.

I mentioned that it also had a pair of south-facing bays used for the services to Bolton and Bury. EVen if not very long they would probably do for turnback units, and I imagine that having been abandoned since 1979 that some rebuilding would be done!

Unfortunately, this has to be a "I can't tell you, and I can't tell you why I can't tell you either" ones, for reasons that I'll probably never be able to explain; however your idea has not gone un-noticed within the Northern Hub team, and may form 1 or more of the options being developed by them.

As to the bays, I find this idea 99.99% unlikely.

 

[WatcherZero]

Wouldnt the platforms have decayed to the point they would have to be rebuilt virtually from scratch anyway?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Wouldnt the platforms have decayed to the point they would have to be rebuilt virtually from scratch anyway?

I understand that the fabric of the disused island is in reasonable condition: the greenery isn't deeply established enough (yet) to have disturbed the foundations. The copings and surfacing will require attention, but not much else.

 

[Rail Bus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rochdale_railway_station_-_Geograph_466679_by_Dr_Neil_Clifton.jpg
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rochdale_railway_station_geograph-2160438.jpg

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Unfortunately, this has to be a "I can't tell you, and I can't tell you why I can't tell you either" ones, for reasons that I'll probably never be able to explain; however your idea has not gone un-noticed within the Northern Hub team, and may form 1 or more of the options being developed by them.

My idea....?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

My idea....?

Rochdale Station seems like a prime candidate for some kind of resurrection as part of the Northern Hub ... the station has a second island platform ... would probably do for turnback units ...

 

[RochdalePioneers]

I mean that someone else must have thought of it already!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The journey to Manchester all the way round the loop with its 400 stops will probably be slower than a change in Rochdale onto an express even with the walk at this "interchange"

400 stops...are there that many bus stops on this route ?
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Has anyone yet an answer to a question that I asked much earlier in this thread...

"What will happen to the redundant abandoned goods yard trackwork nearer to Todmorden station "?

Has anyone any updated news on this matter ?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

"What will happen to the redundant abandoned goods yard trackwork nearer to Todmorden station "?

Has anyone any updated news on this matter ?

Paul, what redundant abandoned track work? Down side or up, Manchester end or York? The new connection goes tight up against the York end of the viaduct and the crossover betwixt station and viaduct. If there's irnmongery in them thar trees then it will get lifted and removed.

These are fed from the Engineer's sidings in the V of Hall Royd Junction (which are the only ones I can think of) but I think those stay (for no reason I can find other than its cheaper to leave them).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Paul, if there's irnmongery in them thar trees then it will get lifted and removed. These are fed from the Engineer's sidings in the V of Hall Royd Junction (which are the only ones I can think of) but I think those stay (for no reason I can find other than its cheaper to leave them).

Thank you for your knowledge of this now-unused area and for the information that you have provided.

 

[L&Y Robert]

I well remember there were signal boxes controlling the Todmorden triangle, but I can't recollect what they were called. North was, I think, Stansfield Hall. East (might be still there) dunno, and west at the very threshold of the viaduct - I don't know either, guess at "Todmorden West Junction". And then there was another (very relevant to me) just beyond the station on the uphill side of the line, "Dog House Lane" perhaps? Anybody know? Pictures woud be good.

 

[Sox]

Todmorden Curve journeys to start after May 2014

11:54am Tuesday 31st July 2012 in News

REPAIRS Holme Tunnel, Cliviger
PASSENGERS won't start direct train journeys from Burnley to Manchester along the Todmorden Curve until after May 2014, it has been announced.

Major work is set to be carried out on a railway tunnel before Manchester-bound trains are allowed through.

Progress is being made on the reinstatement of the Todmorden Curve, which will slash journey times to the city from East Lancashire.

And the long-awaited project, which will also benefit commuters from Accrington onwards, is still on course to be finished by December 2013.

Before the service is launched the following May though, engineers are looking to strengthen Holme Tunnel in Cliviger, on the Copy Pit Line running from Burnley to Todmorden.

Keith Lumley, of Network Rail, said: “This is to correct distortions in the tunnel that are being caused by movement in the hillside above.

“The movement is very slight and quite normal but it does mean that the rail tunnel is no longer perfectly cylindrical so we will have to do some re-profiling work to get it back into shape again.”

Final dates and costings for the work have not yet been set but it is envisaged it will be completed by early 2014.

Mr Lumley added: “It makes sense to delay the introduction of the new train services until the tunnel work is complete.”Further meetings are planned on the tunnel work in September and more details will then be released.

No decision has yet been taken regarding the Burnley to Manchester service route, with Northern Rail’s franchise expiring in April 2013.

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9846944.Todmorden_Curve_journeys_to_start_after_May_2014/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Interesting to note that the final part of the quote says that no decision has yet been taken with regard to the Burnley to Manchester route.

I note the report states that the Northern franchise ends in April 2013, but did not the recent franchise extension take this to 1st April 2014 ?

 

[PR1Berske]

Interesting to note that the final part of the quote says that no decision has yet been taken with regard to the Burnley to Manchester route.

I note the report states that the Northern franchise ends in April 2013, but did not the recent franchise extension take this to 1st April 2014 ?

Clearly going to be part of the new IC Glasgow - Blackburn - Victoria - Warrington service

 

[Geeves]

So taking a stab in the dark, the Copy Pit route will be closed for a while during 2013/14. I guess that Northern will just run Blackpool N - Burnley and provide coaches to Hebden Bridge for connections? Not too bad I guess.

I was thinking about the service patterns a while ago. I can see a circular Vic - Blackburn - Burnley - Vic with the Clitheroe services either being cut back to Blackburn or perhaps diverted to Preston? Either way unless extra money comes for some extra loops on the Darwen section something will have to go for it to work. Some interesting times ahead!

 

[WatcherZero]

So taking a stab in the dark, the Copy Pit route will be closed for a while during 2013/14. I guess that Northern will just run Blackpool N - Burnley and provide coaches to Hebden Bridge for connections? Not too bad I guess.

I was thinking about the service patterns a while ago. I can see a circular Vic - Blackburn - Burnley - Vic with the Clitheroe services either being cut back to Blackburn or perhaps diverted to Preston? Either way unless extra money comes for some extra loops on the Darwen section something will have to go for it to work. Some interesting times ahead!

Theres never been a service pattern decided but the early favourite of planners was extending the Wigan-Rochdale via Victoria service to Blackburn via Burnley. Wouldnt be a circular service (with their inherent problems) but would be a horseshoe on its side.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It should maybe be noted that Bolton-Blackburn as it stands can handle 2tph each way (just!), it's just very tight and often involves a slight wait somewhere, and not aided by the busyness after Bolton. I think a loop at Turton or thereabouts would be sufficient. I can't imagine Clitheroe losing Manchester trains either - there's a strong CRP behind it, plus proposals for extensions on to Hellifield and Settle.

 

[Sox]

So taking a stab in the dark, the Copy Pit route will be closed for a while during 2013/14. I guess that Northern will just run Blackpool N - Burnley and provide coaches to Hebden Bridge for connections? Not too bad I guess.

I was thinking about the service patterns a while ago. I can see a circular Vic - Blackburn - Burnley - Vic with the Clitheroe services either being cut back to Blackburn or perhaps diverted to Preston? Either way unless extra money comes for some extra loops on the Darwen section something will have to go for it to work. Some interesting times ahead!

Yes, fixing one weakness in a system tends to expose other weaknesses to greater scrutiny!
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It should maybe be noted that Bolton-Blackburn as it stands can handle 2tph each way (just!), it's just very tight and often involves a slight wait somewhere, and not aided by the busyness after Bolton. I think a loop at Turton or thereabouts would be sufficient. I can't imagine Clitheroe losing Manchester trains either - there's a strong CRP behind it, plus proposals for extensions on to Hellifield and Settle.

Every time I use the Blackburn-Manchester train it seems to hang 'round for an eternity on the section just before it joins the main line at Bolton.

I'm sure it was like this when I was at studying in the 80s.

Would a loop cure this issue?

 

[Whistler40145]

If your train off the Blackburn line seems to be held for quite a while, then it's down to the pathing of trains coming from the Wigan & Preston lines.

I always thought trains coming off the Blackburn line used the back platform, thus eliminating any conflicting moves.

 

[tbtc]

I can see a circular Vic - Blackburn - Burnley - Vic

I think that would be far too complicated, given the single track between Blackburn and Bolton - it wouldn't take much for things to go wrong.