Todmorden Curve

[Get-Pulled-Off]

£6.50 return extotianate? And that's for a one off fare! I think it's pretty reasonable to be honest. It's actually roughly the same price as it was in the mid 1990s. Seriously! The X43 service was never what it is now, it used to be just another bus service, every 30 minutes I think, with steady but unspectacular loadings. Then Stagecoach (at the time) started competing on a GM buses route in Stockport, and GM retaliated by running a coach service (although regularly subsituted by Atlantean buses!!) on the X43 route. Competition was fierce with a reported 22 buses an hour on a Saturday morning by Stagecoach using any old stock they had available. Fares tumbled, to the point where an adult return was about £1. Naturally, passengers flocked to service and double deckers were leaving Burnley every few minutes packed to the rafters, much to the annoyance of shop keepers in East Lancashire.

Stagecoach came to an agreement with GM Buses eventually and the war ended, but Stagecoach had found a winner, fares stayed low (but not quite as low) and passengers stayed with the service, and it because very popular and well known in the area, attacting car owners in their droves.
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I thank you for your considered opinion. The point that you make about park and ride faciliies is very relevent. Lostock Parkway has often been cited as a very good example of what a good sized park and ride can do. Is there land facilities available to enable large sized versions of these to be built near to the proposed stations?

There's land available close to Rose Grove station, but it's not flat so would require some fairly heavy lifting, but it could be done. Whether the council would want the additional traffic on the roads in the area is debateable though, its already congested at rush hour. There would be an ideal place for a brand new park and ride station at Junction 8 on the M65, but whether it would be worth building a whole station is debateable.

I think that TRANSDEV were very aware that they faced commuter competition on the Blackburn to Manchester route from the Clitheroe-Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester rail service and from the the 225 Clitheroe - Blackburn - Bolton bus service for short journey passengers. However, as they faced no such rail competition on the Colne-Burnley-Rawtenstall-Manchester route, they have obviously set up their service accordingly with regard to operational and commercial nessessities in mind.

I must confess that their timetable for the X43/X44 Lancashire Witch is very impressive in the quality of paper and printing, with timetables, route maps, ticket and price availability and general information. They must spend quite an amount of money on the production of these.

In my younger days, in the early 1960's, I commuted from Manchester Victoria to Accrington on the line currently part-used by the East Lancashire railway, so I am very much aware of the time advantage that rail offers over bus travel.

Oh it's certainly a slick operation and popular in the local area, I wouldn't want to see it go down the pan with the rail link, but I think there is room for both, albeit the bus might have to reduce it's frequency.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Back to the matter of the train service, what type of units and what formation of same is envisaged for this route....dare I ask. Is it going to be Newton Heaths's favourite units?

Would there be much in the way of driver route learning involved?

 

[WatcherZero]

Todmorden?
Mix of pacers and sprinters, depends how they rework it. I guess one option might be to extend the Wigan Wallgate-Rochdale service to Burnley? Or some similar service extension.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am sure that Todmorden would see this as being a very good idea with regard to the local economy of the town and the improvement to its local transport links. The main bus route that runs northwards from there is the Halifax - Hebden Bridge - Todmorden - Burnley service, which would be useful for local links to part of the proposed rail route.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

I think it will most likely be a Manchester-Blackburn via Tod service. A circular service would be useful but pathing would be tough over the single line to Bolton. It would probably require a complete re-jig of the East Lancs timetable, and I believe the service wouldn't be robust enough in the event of delays. It could terminate at Rose Grove and shunt onto the Goods Line if required, and of course, would require the least amount of stock, but that would be disappointing given the opportunity to increase the frequency alond the line. I believe the most interesting option would be a Preston - Manchester service via Burnley and Tod. Obviously this is not intended for through passengers but would boost the frequency on the East Lancs from Burnley/Accrington/Blackburn to Preston. Perhaps having a call at Bamber Bridge and Lostock Hall as well. But this would require a lot of stock to run, so I'd be suprised if it went through, bar maybe the odd early/late stock move.

If we're talking fantasy here, relaying the short line to Padiham would also be good move to the area, possibly having a Padiham - Manchester service. But I'm under no illusions that the chance of that happening anytime soon is less than zero!

 

[cle]

Is there any chance the Bolton - Blackburn line might be doubled?

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

I believe it was recently knocked back for funding, so I'd doubt it anytime soon.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I believe the most interesting option would be a Preston - Manchester service via Burnley and Tod. Obviously this is not intended for through passengers but would boost the frequency on the East Lancs from Burnley/Accrington/Blackburn to Preston. Perhaps having a call at Bamber Bridge and Lostock Hall as well. But this would require a lot of stock to run, so I'd be suprised if it went through, bar maybe the odd early/late stock move!

Preston already has a service though to Colne. I have been talking to some people recently about this proposed Todmorden Chord and how other services could link with Blackburn and its 4 platforms as a hub.

One suggestion was a Preston - Blackburn - Clitheroe service to link with the new proposed Blackburn - Todmorden - Manchester route.

 

[lancastrian]

Is there any chance the Bolton - Blackburn line might be doubled?

Highly unlikely, simply because when they renewed the bridge over the road near the old Goods Station at King William, between Bromley Cross & Turton, they only renewed it to take a single line. Typical short sightedness from those who plan these things.

The best that could be done would be a partial redoubling to increase the capacity of the line. The way to do this is to redouble from Blackburn to Darwen and extend towards the entrance of the Tunnel at Spring Vale. Then redouble from Entwistle, renewing the island platform, through to Turton, where the station could be reopened. There has been a lot of new houseing developed near this station since it closed. I number of which drive to Bromley Cross, which only has limited parking there.

Then the final redoubling to be done from Hall i'th' Wood through to Bolton Station. This would mean that about 70% of the line would now be double, instead of just the two loops at Darwen and at Bromley Cross/Hall i'th' Wood. There would be a massive increase of both capacity and improved time keeping.

 

[Inox]

Hi

i use the Bromley Cross to Manchester service daily and have often wondered about line doubling. I think it wouldn't be possible to do all the way into Bolton because of the tunnel just north of platform 1 that goes under bradshaw gate; there isn't enough room for a double track, sadly. Also i wonder about loading on those bridges over the a666, et al.

 

[lancastrian]

Hi

i use the Bromley Cross to Manchester service daily and have often wondered about line doubling. I think it wouldn't be possible to do all the way into Bolton because of the tunnel just north of platform 1 that goes under bradshaw gate; there isn't enough room for a double track, sadly. Also i wonder about loading on those bridges over the a666, et al.

Well I am very supprised as until they singled the line it was Double Track!!!! Although there might not be the hight they might want these days, surely the track bed can be lowered and slabed concrete track can be put in. The whole line was built double track and it was only when BR was forced to cut costs was in singled to just handle the basic service it now handles. As I said before, typical short sightedness as per usual.

As far as I am aware all the bridges may need some upgrades or reinforcing to take double track again, but if the passengers continue to increase all over the North West as they are doing, surely this is a great investment for the future.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Preston already has a service though to Colne. I have been talking to some people recently about this proposed Todmorden Chord and how other services could link with Blackburn and its 4 platforms as a hub.

One suggestion was a Preston - Blackburn - Clitheroe service to link with the new proposed Blackburn - Todmorden - Manchester route.

Yeah I know it has a service to Colne but it's slow, and hourly. It's not an attractive service and is generally only used by people with no other option. The principle of extending the service to Preston would be to increase the frequency of trains to East Lancashire, giving 3 per hour from Blackburn and Accrington to Preston and 3 to Burnley, albeit 1 to Central station. It would also give the chance for sizable communities such as Rose Grove, Bamber Bridge and Lostock Hall to have 2 trains per hour instead of one. It would transform the service into a turn up and go one, and would also give the service somewhere to terminate with PNB and booking on facilities.

 

[Lampshade]

Yeah I know it has a service to Colne but it's slow, and hourly. It's not an attractive service and is generally only used by people with no other option. The principle of extending the service to Preston would be to increase the frequency of trains to East Lancashire, giving 3 per hour from Blackburn and Accrington to Preston and 3 to Burnley, albeit 1 to Central station. It would also give the chance for sizable communities such as Rose Grove, Bamber Bridge and Lostock Hall to have 2 trains per hour instead of one. It would transform the service into a turn up and go one, and would also give the service somewhere to terminate with PNB and booking on facilities.

There's no point in increasing services at Lostock Hall or Bamber Bridge, they must be the only two stations on the whole of the Northern network that passenger numbers have actually DECREASED at. The bus links to Leyland/Preston are better from those places anyway.

 

[lancastrian]

There's no point in increasing services at Lostock Hall or Bamber Bridge, they must be the only two stations on the whole of the Northern network that passenger numbers have actually DECREASED at. The bus links to Leyland/Preston are better from those places anyway.

Well you are proberbly right, BUT I know that the traffic between both those places and Preston is very heavy during what is euphamistically called "the rush hour", so having a alternate choice for using the train might be very useful. I wish that Lostock Hall was open when I had to travel to work in Preston from there, it would have saved me at least 15/20 minutes in each direction.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

There's no point in increasing services at Lostock Hall or Bamber Bridge, they must be the only two stations on the whole of the Northern network that passenger numbers have actually DECREASED at. The bus links to Leyland/Preston are better from those places anyway.

True, but as has been pointed out, the traffic is heavy and not all passengers are heading to Preston only, increasing the service will improve journey opportunities with connections at Preston. The loadings from Lostock Hall and Bamber have always been reasonably steady with just an hourly service, improving it to 2 an hour would tempt more people to use it because it's far more convienent than having to time your journey home for a once hourly service. You've got to speculate to accumulate. A frequent reliable train service always attacts people to use it, just look at the Airedale line to prove that.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's no point in increasing services at Lostock Hall or Bamber Bridge, they must be the only two stations on the whole of the Northern network that passenger numbers have actually DECREASED at. The bus links to Leyland/Preston are better from those places anyway.

Unlike many "armchair" theoretical forum users, I am quite prepared to go and see some of the possible alternatives available between Preston and Burnley, for those who do not use the train.

With this in mind, I have travelled BOTH ways during the Monday to Friday period on service 152 from Preston Bus Station which passes through Blackburn, Rishton, Padiham , arriving at Burnley Bus Station.

Many users were short-route users, e.g. Blackburn to Rishton, Rishton to Padiham, etc. Unlike the existing Preston to Colne rail service, this bus runs every 30 minutes. Together, in conjunction with the train, this service provides a good transport link on the section from Preston to Burnley, with the added incentive of numerous bus stops that make bus travel for workpeople, shoppers and schoolchildren so attractive.

Finally, there are many connectional buses to outlying areas at both Blackburn and Burnley bus stations.

 

[bluenoxid]

There's land available close to Rose Grove station, but it's not flat so would require some fairly heavy lifting, but it could be done. Whether the council would want the additional traffic on the roads in the area is debateable though, its already congested at rush hour. There would be an ideal place for a brand new park and ride station at Junction 8 on the M65, but whether it would be worth building a whole station is debateable.

Where are you looking at. The area to the west of Rose Grove. Very possible, would need them to adapt Junction 9 for it with east facing slips.

However, would somewhere near Hapton or Huncoat be preferred with Junction 8 already set up for it. I just cannot see Rose Grove working as it would really load the roads up.

I guess a new station would have to be balanced against the link roads and opposition that would be created to get to any of the three above systems going.

With regards to Transdev, they will love it. The railways have just opened them up a second commuter market. Everyone above Nelson can now get to a station that is just 40-50 minutes from Manchester, rather than their bus, which can take up to 90. Kerching.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To go back to the aspirations of Lancashire County Council on this matter, does anyone know if they have submitted any large infrastructure plans to central Government that has included this specific project?

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Where are you looking at. The area to the west of Rose Grove. Very possible, would need them to adapt Junction 9 for it with east facing slips.

However, would somewhere near Hapton or Huncoat be preferred with Junction 8 already set up for it. I just cannot see Rose Grove working as it would really load the roads up.

I guess a new station would have to be balanced against the link roads and opposition that would be created to get to any of the three above systems going.

With regards to Transdev, they will love it. The railways have just opened them up a second commuter market. Everyone above Nelson can now get to a station that is just 40-50 minutes from Manchester, rather than their bus, which can take up to 90. Kerching.

I was thinking of the strip of land that runs parallel to the railway from when the extra tracks used to be there, but yes from memory there is land to the west as well. But I agree, I think it's unlikely to work, and unlikely to be agreed by the council unless an extra pair of slips were to be put in at J9. (There was always meant to be some, they just ran out of money).

J8 is, as you say, much better set up for a Park and Ride station but as said, it must be weighed up with the cost of building a new station, and the land purchase and link roads etc etc. But it would a positive step for the area I think.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I've skimmed the above and this is my proposal for East lancs services aftet Toddy Curve gets reopened (so maybe from the December 2020 timetable):
1tph - Blackpool South-Ormskirk - all stations inc. Salwck (see NB below)
1tph - Preston-Colne - all stations as now, hopefully with a 150/156
1tph - Blackpool South-Clitheroe - all stations to Kirkham & Wesham, then Preston, Bamber Bridge, Cherry Tree and all stations
1tph - Preston-Manchester Victoria via the Todmorden Curve (advertised as a Todmorden service until Accrington) - Blackburn, Accrington, Rose Grove, Burnley Manchester Road, Todmorden, Littleborough, Rochdale and Manchester Victoria
1tph - Blackburn-Manchester Victoria (see NB2 below)
1tph - Clitheroe-Manchester Victoria - Blackburn, Darwen, Bromley Cross, Bolton, Salford cresecent and Salford Central (see NB2 below)
1tph - Blackpool North-York - as now

NB - Installation of crossing loop at St Annes would allow half-hourly running along the branch, and a crossing loop at maybe Rufford would allow hourly workings on the Ormskirk line.

NB2 - redouble Darwen-Blackburn and Sough Tunnel south bore-Bromley Cross, and you should be able to get 4tph in total over it. Entwistle becomes compulsory stop, but only once per two hours. Maybe the Blackburn starting train could just run through to Bolton as a stopper, and get back towards Hall-i'-th'-Wood by the time the Clitheroe_Vic train needs the single line.

Stock would be 158s for the Blackpool North-York, 156s for the Preston-Vic and 150s for the rest.

 

[Invincibles]

Is there a demand for four trains per hour from Preston to Blackburn?

I would be tempted to leave Blackburn to Clitheroe as is but maybe add a train from Preston in the morning and evening peaks to provide further commuting opportunities and to give relief to existing workings.

A service I would like to see trialled is Liverpool - Wigan (some stops) then on to Leyland* - Bamber Bridge - Blackburn - Burnley and possibly Colne. This would link many places to Liverpool as well as Manchester. This service would probably be an extension of the current Wigan terminator and would need to have suitable padding to ensure it could slot in on the WCML between Wigan and the Lostock Hall junction.

* I can not decide if Leyland is a good idea for connections to Manchester or not.

 

[bluenoxid]

I've skimmed the above and this is my proposal for East lancs services aftet Toddy Curve gets reopened (so maybe from the December 2020 timetable):
1tph - Blackpool South-Ormskirk - all stations inc. Salwck (see NB below)
1tph - Preston-Colne - all stations as now, hopefully with a 150/156
1tph - Blackpool South-Clitheroe - all stations to Kirkham & Wesham, then Preston, Bamber Bridge, Cherry Tree and all stations
1tph - Preston-Manchester Victoria via the Todmorden Curve (advertised as a Todmorden service until Accrington) - Blackburn, Accrington, Rose Grove, Burnley Manchester Road, Todmorden, Littleborough, Rochdale and Manchester Victoria
1tph - Blackburn-Manchester Victoria (see NB2 below)
1tph - Clitheroe-Manchester Victoria - Blackburn, Darwen, Bromley Cross, Bolton, Salford cresecent and Salford Central (see NB2 below)
1tph - Blackpool North-York - as now

NB - Installation of crossing loop at St Annes would allow half-hourly running along the branch, and a crossing loop at maybe Rufford would allow hourly workings on the Ormskirk line.

NB2 - redouble Darwen-Blackburn and Sough Tunnel south bore-Bromley Cross, and you should be able to get 4tph in total over it. Entwistle becomes compulsory stop, but only once per two hours. Maybe the Blackburn starting train could just run through to Bolton as a stopper, and get back towards Hall-i'-th'-Wood by the time the Clitheroe_Vic train needs the single line.

Stock would be 158s for the Blackpool North-York, 156s for the Preston-Vic and 150s for the rest.

Ditch Ormskirk from your plans and replace with Burscough. For just over a mile of electrification and a renewed spur, this route could be cut down to a point where a 153 or suitable light rail vehicle could perform an hourly shuttle.

In addition, consider the ramifications of tram train on the Blackpool South branch, connecting with the existing tram network.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I can not decide if Leyland is a good idea for connections to Manchester or not.

It has four platforms, so that should not pose a problem, unless you meant the demand for services.

Is there any news regarding the proposed Buckshaw Village station that was supposed to be where the old military camp was, which is being well developed?
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Ditch Ormskirk from your plans and replace with Burscough. For just over a mile of electrification and a renewed spur, this route could be cut down to a point where a 153 or suitable light rail vehicle could perform an hourly shuttle,

Someone on another thread has suggested 3rd rail Merseyrail electrification of the line from Ormskirk to Burscough Junction, which means only moving the terminus one station further down the line. That stretch of line is single track. similar to the situation between Kirkby and Rainford.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It has four platforms, so that should not pose a problem, unless you meant the demand for services.

Is there any news regarding the proposed Buckshaw Village station that was supposed to be where the old military camp was, which is being well developed?

There was blue work safety fencing when I passed about three Saturdays ago. I think it should be open this year, but it has been scaled back in size...

 

[Lampshade]

It has four platforms, so that should not pose a problem, unless you meant the demand for services.

Is there any news regarding the proposed Buckshaw Village station that was supposed to be where the old military camp was, which is being well developed?

It's coming along pretty well, the outline of platforms and other features have been marked out and a lot of construction work seems to be taking place... as well as a big construction sign saying 'BUCKSHAW PARKWAY RAIL STATION'.

Someone on another thread has suggested 3rd rail Merseyrail electrification of the line from Ormskirk to Burscough Junction, which means only moving the terminus one station further down the line. That stretch of line is single track. similar to the situation between Kirkby and Rainford.

No point in doing that unless electrification extends to Preston and hand over services to Merseyrail - there'd be no point whatsoever in a Preston - Burscough Junction service.

 

[bluenoxid]

There is a point to the madness. It increases frequency on the route to hourly and provides a reliable connection with Merseyrail and Northern to Southport. Ultimately Preston - Southport would be the ultimate goal. Rail stated that the northern chord was in a better condition compared to the Southern chord. The whole hog is just not an option in these straitened times particularly with the existing frequency.

Another, possibly better location would be Rufford with its loop and two platforms. The aim is to create a connection between the Wigan - Southport line and Ormskirk to Preston lines.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I don't wish to be pedantic,whilst admiring the pro's and con's of the West Lancashire rail improvements, it suddenly dawned on me that these discussions may be going over the head of the original thread subscribers to...

THE TODMORDEN CURVE REINSTATEMENT!!!

 

[PR1Berske]

as part of another thread I suggested Liverpool-Leyland-Bamber Bridge-Blackburn as a "goer". Open the Curve and there's a lot more possibility from this. Leyland has 4 platforms and is currently somewhat under-used (to my mind). There's a commuter interchange station just waiting to break out.

 

[bluenoxid]

I don't wish to be pedantic,whilst admiring the pro's and con's of the West Lancashire rail improvements, it suddenly dawned on me that these discussions may be going over the head of the original thread subscribers to...

THE TODMORDEN CURVE REINSTATEMENT!!!

Back Seat Moderator

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Back Seat Moderator

Blessed are the back seat moderators, for they shall bring enlightenment to the minds of the distracted.