Transpennine Express decide not to use MK3's on limited services

[Spartacus]

I wonder if they were possibly designed to fit the standard BR wheelchair which you'd sometimes see at stations with the station's name on, passengers usually conveyed on the railway on one of those with their own wheelchair folded up as luggage, with the BR wheelchair returned at earliest possible convenience. They always seems quite small even for then when almost any you'd see was the 'Lou and Andy Little Britain' style.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry if I've missed it...but when does the service start? Also is there a weekend service or just M-F?

 

[Starmill]

Yes Monday to Friday only and not yet confirmed but not before 29th Jun.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Yes Monday to Friday only and not yet confirmed but not before 29th Jun.

Not before 30 July (when the Lime St blockade ends).

 

[kingqueen]

The end of July, once the engineering work outside Liverpool is completed,
Though some mention on here a couple of days ago that it may be delayed to October.

 

[43096]

The staff briefing says there is.

"despite having a certain level of wheel chair space and an old style (ex British Rail) access toilet, the trains will run without wheelchair or cycle provision."

But that's not what I was asking. I was asking: why is there no Standard Class coach with a wheelchair space? Did the rake(s) these coaches came from not have such a TSO(D), so to speak?

The problem for TPE is that the "Pretendolino" did have one standard class coach with wheelchair space and (non-compliant with the PRM-TSI) disabled toilet, but TPE want to split the set and operate it as two sets. They would therefore have two different set formations, so they couldn't guarantee that any particular service would have the disabled facilities.

I also don't believe that 11048 has a disabled toilet, just a wheelchair space. Though it was not described as having that in this previous posting on the West Coast Mark 3s: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/vtwc-mk3-set-coach-lettering.161354/#post-3356982

So TPE have two different vehicles with wheelchair spaces, but one has a disabled access toilet, one doesn't and one has first class seats and one is second class. Trying to get two consistent formations out of the vehicles they've got is rather difficult.

 

[BMIFlyer]

They have carriages with what used to be termed "wheelchair spaces", but the spaces were made decades ago to accessibility standards of the time and thus have doorways that are far too narrow for wheelchair users to actually get through, and the "accessible" toilets are similarly problematic. The "wheelchair spaces" are therefore not actually usable by people in wheelchairs so they've designated the carriages as not having any wheelchair access at all. Said carriages won't being held in reserve, they will be in use all the time.

Incorrect.

The standard wheelchair carriage and first class wheelchair carriage are both spare vehicles. They are parked on Crewe depot alone and are not in the rakes being used for the MK3 in service trains.

Disregard the hastily written staff brief - which anyway DOES state that the wheelchair vehicles are SPARE.

They will ONLY be used as a last resort if other vehicles fail. But, they CANNOT be used as wheelchair accommodation purely because:

• The first class wheelchair space does not have an accessible toilet anywhere near it (there isn't one in first class) and no table
• The standard wheelchair area is an early BR design and as such has issues accommodating modern wheelchairs
• The standard class accessible toilet has the same issues as the disabled space.

Because of the formation of the train and the coaches being used, you could potentially have a set with the one wheelchair space, but no disabled toilet, or a set with a disabled toilet that can't be used by most wheelchair users, but has a wheelchair access space that could be used but only with difficulty. You would have one set with a defacto wheelchair area therefore, and one without - because of diagramming each day you can't say "xx service will have a space but xx train won't" - it's difficult to manage and advertise and will cause utter confusion...

Therefore the decision has been made that the trains will have NO wheelchair accommodation, as technically the FOD coach has no wheelchair access loo so would be useless anyway. This applies to bikes too - there is simply no storage.

Hope this clears things up.

 

[Ploughman]

In the table on the briefing sheet besides mention of wheelchairs there is also UAT.

To me UAT is Ultrasonic Axle Testing.
What does it mean in this instance.
The curse of the 3 letter Acronym strikes again.

 

[Domh245]

Universal(ly) accessible toilet.

 

[kingqueen]

Hope this clears things up.

It does, thank you.

One wonders if the DFT and franchise negotiators considered the wheelchair access issues when they wrote in the obligation that Mark 3 stock be used.

One wonders also if wheelchair users had problems on the Pretendolino (sounds likely).

 

[BeHereNow]

It's the bidders version of the franchise agreement that gets contracted.

 

[nickarcher]

Are they planning on using the buffet.......? If not surely they’d use the FOD or TSOD?

 

[BMIFlyer]

Are they planning on using the buffet.......? If not surely they’d use the FOD or TSOD?

Both rakes of Mk3's have a buffet, as that is where the train guard will be based.

 

[nickarcher]

Both rakes of Mk3's have a buffet, as that is where the train guard will be based.

Sorry, I meant are they staffing and stocking them as a traditional buffet?

 

[Starmill]

I meant 'Jul' rather than 'Jun' apologies for the typo

 

[BMIFlyer]

Sorry, I meant are they staffing and stocking them as a traditional buffet?

No. Trolley service only.

 

[jfollows]

The Guardian has picked up and written on this story, see https://www.theguardian.com/society...ack-of-wheelchair-access-on-major-train-route

Anger as wheelchair users left unable to ride trains on major route

Wheelchair users will not be allowed to travel on a third of trains on a major route in northern England this summer following the temporary reintroduction of 45-year-old carriages.

The main rail workers’ union accused TransPennine Express (TPE) of flouting disability discrimination legislation and in effect operating a heritage railway by bringing back into service Mark 3 trains that were built in the 1970s for British Rail.

Documents leaked to the Disability News Service show that wheelchairs will not be able to travel on 12 of the 34 hourly services to and from Liverpool and Scarborough via Manchester Victoria, Huddersfield, Leeds and York.

The documents say there will be “no space on the train for wheelchairs” and that “the trains will run without wheelchair or cycle provision”.

If a wheelchair user wants to board a service that is using the Mark 3 coaches, they will be told to catch the next available accessible train instead. If two consecutive trains are inaccessible, TPE will pay for a taxi to their destination.
..... and more.

 

[Polarbear]

The Guardian has picked up and written on this story, see https://www.theguardian.com/society...ack-of-wheelchair-access-on-major-train-route

A poorly researched article which is scant on real facts. Yes, it's a problem on those services, but alternatives are available (and many more than suggested by the article unless those affected are travelling between York & Scarborough).

One wonders what stock the RMT think is operating on passenger services on the ECML, GWR & Anglia, given their rather daft comments!

 

[Starmill]

A poorly researched article which is scant on real facts.

The fact is that a customer in a wheelchair, who currently can be accommodated on any TransPennine Express train, will be told they must wait until the next train if one of these sets turns up. No other train operator has the policy that the customer must wait for the next train that I am aware of. Of course, there are bigger breaches than this (one only has to look at GTR) but as a policy it does seem questionable. TransPennine Express have a legal duty to make reasonable adjustments to carry disabled people. Is making a disabled customer wait a 'reasonable adjustment'? Some people might think it is and some might think it isn't - it would be for a court to decide on. But it isn't policy at present and it isn't policy elsewhere, which suggests to me that it's not the right policy.

Even when the 442s were in use, which had pretty awful accommodation for people who use wheelchairs, I don't think the policy was for the customer to wait for the next train?

One wonders what stock the RMT think is operating on passenger services on the ECML, GWR & Anglia

Trains which, unlike these sets, will accommodate passengers who use wheelchairs.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I hate to start a new thread for this trivia, but I've been asked about central door locking on Mk3s. Wiki says it is speed actuated. I thought they were locked by the guard before departure.

 

[BeHereNow]

Do other operators have mk3s that allow wheelchairs? How does it work on VT East Coast?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hate to start a new thread for this trivia, but I've been asked about central door locking on Mk3s. Wiki says it is speed actuated. I thought they were locked by the guard before departure.

They are (and released by the guard as well). Someone's getting confused with UIC door blocking, which has never been fitted to any UK domestic vehicle.

 

[Polarbear]

Trains which, unlike these sets, will accommodate wheelchair passengers.

True, though I was more referring to the reference to "heritage trains".

The lack of wheelchair access is an issue, but I can't help but feel this is being taken very much out of context. The article mentions that due to regulations, Mk3's will be withdrawn soon (unless modified to meet current regulations). I'm all for equality, but is it reasonable to have this stock modified for the very short time they will be in service?

The alternative, no extra stock until the new trains are in service.

 

[Starmill]

True, though I was more referring to the reference to "heritage trains".

You are right of course - this is indeed hyperbole getting in the way of a relatively good point. As you were, RMT!

 

[kingqueen]

Do other operators have mk3s that allow wheelchairs? How does it work on VT East Coast?

They have RVAR ish fully accessible wheelchair spaces and toilets in standard class

And an unusable "wheelchair accessible" space in first without any accessible toilet.

So, one fully usable wheelchair space and one pretty much not usable one. Both better than none at all.

I presume that come the end of July or October (depending what you read) when these are introduced they won't be serving new diagrams or whatever. So given that the services are evidently currently being run, they could continue with the existing vehicles?

I guess the question is: is wheelchair accessibility more important than overcrowding and driver training on 68s / loco hauled stock? (assuming those are the two principle reasons for introducing it.) I'm obviously biased but I think it is.

It's obviously a fait accompli however, as the Mark 3 stock is in the franchise agreement and doubtless the ORR have already agreed in principle to FTPE changing their DPPP.

 

[Halish Railway]

I guess the question is: is wheelchair accessibility more important than overcrowding and driver training on 68s / loco hauled stock? (assuming those are the two principle reasons for introducing it.) I'm obviously biased but I think it is.

I think that it is important to introduce more stock. After all there won't be a net loss in accessible spaces etc. And with the current overcrowding, it'd be impossible to even attempt to get a wheelchair on.

 

[Starmill]

After all there won't be a net loss in accessible spaces etc.

This is missing the point. The point has nothing to do with whether or not there is a 'net loss' in accessibility or not. The point has to do with whether TransPennine Express have complied with their legal duty to make reasonable adjustments towards people with disabilities. This covers their entire policy, of which the rolling stock in use is a part.

 

[BeHereNow]

They have RVAR ish fully accessible wheelchair spaces and toilets in standard class

And an unusable "wheelchair accessible" space in first without any accessible toilet.

So, one fully usable wheelchair space and one pretty much not usable one. Both better than none at all.

I presume that come the end of July or October (depending what you read) when these are introduced they won't be serving new diagrams or whatever. So given that the services are evidently currently being run, they could continue with the existing vehicles?

I guess the question is: is wheelchair accessibility more important than overcrowding and driver training on 68s / loco hauled stock? (assuming those are the two principle reasons for introducing it.) I'm obviously biased but I think it is.

It's obviously a fait accompli however, as the Mark 3 stock is in the franchise agreement and doubtless the ORR have already agreed in principle to FTPE changing their DPPP.

Agreed, a lot better than none at all!

The first few pages of this thread are useful in explaining how and why the Mk3 plan came into being.

 

[kingqueen]

I think that it is important to introduce more stock. After all there won't be a net loss in accessible spaces etc.

I don't understand that. If they are replacing trains that have wheelchair spaces, with trains that don't, then surely there's a net loss in accessible spaces.

And with the current overcrowding, it'd be impossible to even attempt to get a wheelchair on.

I travel on TransPennine a lot (in my wheelchair) and have yet to come across a train that was so overcrowded I couldn't get on.

It came close once last year when services were still very affected by the tragedy at Manchester Arena. The trains were absolutely rammed, but still there was space.

Maybe I'm lucky, and doubtless there are some services that physically get so full that I couldn't get on. But I doubt every one of the 60 trains a week that the Mark 3s will be replacing, would have been so full throughout their journeys that wheelchair users couldn't physically be able to get on.

The first few pages of this thread are useful in explaining how and why the Mk3 plan came into being.

I've read the whole thread, and know how the Mark 3 plan came into being. It still doesn't make the access impact acceptable.

I still wonder at what point the access impact was recognised, and what weight it was given. I wonder if the franchise discussions considered or gave any weight to the fact that the Pretendolino stock has no usable wheelchair access.

It should have done, under the Pubic Sector Equality Duty, but it doesn't appear to have done so. But then I wasn't there, so I don't actually know.

 

[47802]

I don't understand that. If they are replacing trains that have wheelchair spaces, with trains that don't, then surely there's a net loss in accessible spaces.



I travel on TransPennine a lot (in my wheelchair) and have yet to come across a train that was so overcrowded I couldn't get on.

It came close once last year when services were still very affected by the tragedy at Manchester Arena. The trains were absolutely rammed, but still there was space.

Maybe I'm lucky, and doubtless there are some services that physically get so full that I couldn't get on. But I doubt every one of the 60 trains a week that the Mark 3s will be replacing, would have been so full throughout their journeys that wheelchair users couldn't physically be able to get on.



I've read the whole thread, and know how the Mark 3 plan came into being. It still doesn't make the access impact acceptable.

I still wonder at what point the access impact was recognised, and what weight it was given. I wonder if the franchise discussions considered or gave any weight to the fact that the Pretendolino stock has no usable wheelchair access.

It should have done, under the Pubic Sector Equality Duty, but it doesn't appear to have done so. But then I wasn't there, so I don't actually know.

Blimey people getting over excited about a few trains each way, for a very limited period. The other day I was on a Bradford limited stop Calder Valley service which was a 150 with an old style Toilet that couldn't take a wheelchair. A man in a Wheelchair was able to board but then he had to struggle to the Toilet with the help of his companion. I notice since the timetable change 150's seem to be more prominent on this route on services which would have previously more than likely a 158 or 155, so it was unfortunate for him in this instance, but that's the way it is until the new Rolling stock begins to arrive for both TPE and Northern.