Travel between obscure stations

[Krokodil]

Always wondered if it would be a good idea to put the county name or some other "group identifier" to the name of stations on tickets, if only to help guards and other revenue protection. It would then be as simple as say guard on a London - Edinburgh train seeing a ticket from Cambs to Scotland and knowing it is valid, or seeing a ticket from London to Cornwall and knowing it is invalid, rather than having to know or remember where Shippea Hill, Eskbank, or Tulse Hill are

How often do you think that fare evaders try this?

 

[JGurney]

I have only once encountered a guard admitting to not knowing where stations on my ticket were. It was a Strawberry Hill to Danby ticket, being checked on route from Kings Cross to Darlington.

Off the railway, a clerk at work once accused me of submitting a forged ticket with an expense claim. The ticket was from Bridgnorth to Ealing Broadway, and she claimed it must be a forgery as Bridgnorth "did not have a station".

 

[CyrusWuff]

On the ORR website, a quick Google will find it readily.

Also available in the Rail Data Marketplace.

 

[methethpropbut]

Absolutely, I've often thought this would be a good idea. I'm guessing the current arrangement is a legacy of APTIS (or a similar system) where the character field for stations names was limited, but I'd think this should be part of the spec for an updated ticketing system as and when (eventually) something like GBR comes along - though it's not going to be a priority!

Of course other factor to consider is how worked up some people would likely get about any county names used... so whatever system chosen would ideally cater for those 'disputed' locales (within reason!).

That's a fair point hahah, though I guess the railway itself can assign the location a code or a cluster that can be used - which incidentally some variant is already used in ticketing as we've seen in this thread and others. Any queries can be then hand waved away with "railway operations". It can better reflect railway geography as well I guess - like if a line from county A is only connected to the rest of the network at a junction in county B, it might make more sense to be tagged with B instead of A.

How often do you think that fare evaders try this?

Admittedly not much, though this method will go beyond just fare evasion - the person who boarded the wrong train going the wrong direction or from the wrong platform for example - it's just an additional tool that can help users make a more informed estimation, and quickly.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Off the railway, a clerk at work once accused me of submitting a forged ticket with an expense claim. The ticket was from Bridgnorth to Ealing Broadway, and she claimed it must be a forgery as Bridgnorth "did not have a station".

Presume this was over 60 years ago? The BR station in Bridgnorth closed in 1963, didn't it?!

 

[Krokodil]

Presume this was over 60 years ago? The BR station in Bridgnorth closed in 1963, didn't it?!

I've just looked it up in my machine and "BRIDGNORTH SVR (L830)" is a station. When I checked fares though it came back with Kidderminster fares.

 

[SickyNicky]

I've just looked it up in my machine and "BRIDGNORTH SVR (L830)" is a station. When I checked fares though it came back with Kidderminster fares.

Yeah - bought these tickets myself on a few occasions in the past - they were the fare to Kidderminster plus a supplment for the SVR. They don't seem to be available any more, though.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Were through tickets only ever available to Bridgnorth SVR as a destination, not as an origin?

 

[Gaelan]

Where on earth do you get to see such a document?

I've started a separate thread on the public release of the ODM:

ORR Origin-Destination Matrix 2021-22

Appears to have largely escaped people here's notice, but the ORR now publishes the full origin-destination matrix on the Rail Data Marketplace. This is a dataset that provides an estimate of the passenger count on every station pair. Downloading it directly from the RDM requires account...

www.railforums.co.uk

I've also put a copy on Google Drive to save folks the trouble of signing up for the Rail Data Marketplace (which requires human approval).

 

[Western 52]

Anybody remember the promotion for young person railcards in the 80’s? Any ticket was either 4,8, or £12. I brought a lot of odd return tickets. Sandplace to Ardgay sort of thing. Was like having a cheep all line rover

I remember asking for a return to Thurso at Cardiff Central with the student railcard offer, and being asked to describe where the destination was!

 

[rf_ioliver]

London Road to London Road got a few queries why I bought that one; more amusement than anything, but I wasn't asked where the stations were.

 

[Western 52]

I'd love to try Garth to Garth on TfW- maybe someone has?

 

[Skiddaw]

Anybody remember the promotion for young person railcards in the 80’s? Any ticket was either 4,8, or £12. I brought a lot of odd return tickets. Sandplace to Ardgay sort of thing. Was like having a cheep all line rover

I remember that! Me and two friends went from Reading to Mallaig and then hitched up the coast a bit. It was February and absolutely freezing. We had a wonderful few days (including a memorable lift in the back of a fish van). I've never forgotten it!

 

[crucible72]

I've started a separate thread on the public release of the ODM:

ORR Origin-Destination Matrix 2021-22

Appears to have largely escaped people here's notice, but the ORR now publishes the full origin-destination matrix on the Rail Data Marketplace. This is a dataset that provides an estimate of the passenger count on every station pair. Downloading it directly from the RDM requires account...

www.railforums.co.uk

I've also put a copy on Google Drive to save folks the trouble of signing up for the Rail Data Marketplace (which requires human approval).

Looking through the origin-destination matrix there appear to be virtually no examples of journeys between
two really obscure stations in completely different locations, so from this I think it is reasonable to deduce that
if you were to try something like this, the guards would either not know your origin or not know your destination (or both).

The most obscure long-distance example I have found so far is Tygwyn to Uphall (1 such journey undertaken).
I'd be interested to know if anyone else has found any examples more obscure than this, for stations nowhere near each other.

 

[Trainguy34]

I remember that! Me and two friends went from Reading to Mallaig and then hitched up the coast a bit. It was February and absolutely freezing. We had a wonderful few days (including a memorable lift in the back of a fish van). I've never forgotten it!

I feel like a trip report is in order...

 

[Skiddaw]

I feel like a trip report is in order...

For starters, my best friend (sadly now deceased) was always late for everything (including her own funeral but that's another story) and despite the best efforts of me and the other friend to chivvy her along we predictably missed the train we were intending to catch from Euston and had to do a mad trolley-dash to Kings Cross. Best friend also had a way of falling on her feet and as it turned out, the train we should have caught was massively delayed (I forget why now) and we ended up getting to Scotland hours earlier than we would have done otherwise.

We stayed the first night at a hostel near Fort William, some way up Glen Nevis, and we think we heard a wild cat calling whilst we were en route up the glen. Everyone at the hostel (which was unusually busy for February) was doing variations on the railcard offer theme.

The next day we carried on to Mallaig and then hitched up the coast from there. I forget the hostel we stayed at but it was close to the famous phone box from Local Hero. The hostel warden was a bit of a jobs worth and wouldn't allow us to leave earlier than the official opening up time (we needed to, because we had to get back to the South). We had to climb out of a window early in the morning to make good our escape.

We stuffed our faces with bean burgers from Burger King when we got back to London as we'd not really eaten anything for the three days we were away. Too much else going on but we did drink plenty of whisky! I also remember we were listening to Clannad most of the time (it was when the album Macalla had just come out).

Ah, happy times... best friend was a Scot (she ended her days on a very remote croft in the North West Highlands) and I miss her still....

 

[JGurney]

Were through tickets only ever available to Bridgnorth SVR as a destination, not as an origin?

That was approx 15 years ago, possibly 20-ish. I got the through ticket from the SVR ticket office at Bridgnorth and IIRC travelled Bridgnorth > Kidderminster > Worcester > Slough > Ealing Broadway.

 

[crucible72]

I have found a journey that has been undertaken from Ince & Elton to Sanquhar.
This is the most obscure one I've come across for stations not close to each other.

 

[Snapper37]

For starters, my best friend (sadly now deceased) was always late for everything (including her own funeral but that's another story) and despite the best efforts of me and the other friend to chivvy her along we predictably missed the train we were intending to catch from Euston and had to do a mad trolley-dash to Kings Cross. Best friend also had a way of falling on her feet and as it turned out, the train we should have caught was massively delayed (I forget why now) and we ended up getting to Scotland hours earlier than we would have done otherwise.

We stayed the first night at a hostel near Fort William, some way up Glen Nevis, and we think we heard a wild cat calling whilst we were en route up the glen. Everyone at the hostel (which was unusually busy for February) was doing variations on the railcard offer theme.

The next day we carried on to Mallaig and then hitched up the coast from there. I forget the hostel we stayed at but it was close to the famous phone box from Local Hero. The hostel warden was a bit of a jobs worth and wouldn't allow us to leave earlier than the official opening up time (we needed to, because we had to get back to the South). We had to climb out of a window early in the morning to make good our escape.

We stuffed our faces with bean burgers from Burger King when we got back to London as we'd not really eaten anything for the three days we were away. Too much else going on but we did drink plenty of whisky! I also remember we were listening to Clannad most of the time (it was when the album Macalla had just come out).

Ah, happy times... best friend was a Scot (she ended her days on a very remote croft in the North West Highlands) and I miss her still....

My sympathies. This thread has brought back memories of my bashing mate, died in his 40’s. Allways up for this silly ticket sort of challenge. Can’t believe it was nearly forty years ago.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Lake to The Lakes must cause some confusion.

Good one! An amusing one I can think of is Clock House to Easterhouse.

 

[chesterred16]

I once presented a Bache to Dundee ticket to a Scotrail guard who then asked where Bache was - I wasn't being accused of anything, i think he was just interested. Clearly the ticket was valid as I was on my final train, which called at Dundee.

 

[mucmhara]

When travelling from Manchester to Dolwyddelan several years ago, the guard on the Holyhead train assumed I would be going all the way to Holyhead and catching the ferry over to Dublin for onward travel. I quietly said I'd be changing at Junction...

 

[Llanigraham]

I had to buy a Solihull - Caersws return today and the nice lady at Solihull station said she hadn't ever issued that ticket before.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Interestingly though, the fares force you via London, so Lake - Ryde - Portsmouth - Southampton Central - Birmingham New St - Birmingham Moor Street - The Lakes isn’t Permitted. (I think?)

Correct, only via London is shown - I just looked it up on the BR Fares website. It seems the fare setter is Avanti, which might explain that - if there was a not via London ticket they would very little from it as only the Coventry to New Street section would have any Avanti validity, and even then ORCATS would assume most people would be using the Cross Country Southampton service direct to Birmingham and that would reduce the take even further... so I suspect Avanti have somehow blocked the creation of a not via London version?

 

[miklcct]

ORR Origin-Destination Matrix 2021-22

Appears to have largely escaped people here's notice, but the ORR now publishes the full origin-destination matrix on the Rail Data Marketplace. This is a dataset that provides an estimate of the passenger count on every station pair. Downloading it directly from the RDM requires account...

www.railforums.co.uk

Some of the journeys I have made, between a major station and a suburban station in another part of country, get only single digit usage in a year.

If I pick a suburban station to another suburban station in another country (e.g. Branksome to some Overground stations), no entry can be found.

 

[akm]

Correct, only via London is shown - I just looked it up on the BR Fares website. It seems the fare setter is Avanti, which might explain that - if there was a not via London ticket they would very little from it as only the Coventry to New Street section would have any Avanti validity, and even then ORCATS would assume most people would be using the Cross Country Southampton service direct to Birmingham and that would reduce the take even further... so I suspect Avanti have somehow blocked the creation of a not via London version?

I've asked separately what happens when there's only a routed fare available fyi.

 

[JGurney]

Presume this was over 60 years ago? The BR station in Bridgnorth closed in 1963, didn't it?!

About 12 years ago, I think. The first part of the journey was on the SVR, whose Bridgnorth ticket office sold me the through ticket.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I remember when the East London line had just reopened in April 2010, and I wanted to explore the line and the reopened stations.
Travelling in from Letchworth, the simplest way would have been to purchase a One Day Travelcard, but I thought it would be amusing to buy a return from Foxton to Hoxton, starting short, then use Oyster…